Why do muslims think Bible is corrupted and Islamic texts are well preserved?

[ChristineM]

Do you really think that Amazon only or mostly just sells books? Have you been on Amazon since the early 2000s?

But, whatever. You just want to believe that religious people are a bunch of uneducated morons and nothing will change your mind about that.

I actually bought a book from Amazon just 3 hours ago so the failed attempt at sarcasm falls flat on its face. Of course it sells other stuff, so what. It sells books. 12% of Amazon sales are books...

Wrong. I do believe and have personal experience that SOME religious people are deliberately ignorant.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I actually bought a book from Amazon just 3 hours ago so the failed attempt at sarcasm falls flat on its face. Of course it sells other stuff, so what. It sells books. 12% of Amazon sales are books...

Wrong. I do believe and have personal experience that SOME religious people are deliberately ignorant.

Amazon book sells are irrelevant. It's rates of reading for pleasure that you want to look at, which is why I provided a link that examines that. Sure, it's for the US but you can find info for other places if you want.

 

[ChristineM]

Amazon book sells are irrelevant. It's rates of reading for pleasure that you want to look at, which is why I provided a link that examines that. Sure, it's for the US but you can find info for other places if you want.

Does it matter what one reads for? The straw man is just that, a straw man. Not until this post have you chosen to break reading down into categories because you realise the only way you can save your argument is by irrelevant nitpicking.

The point is there are more people who read, for whatever reason, than you wish to admit.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Does it matter what one reads for? The straw man is just that, a straw man. Not until this post have you chosen to break reading down into categories because you realise the only way you can save your argument is by irrelevant nitpicking.

The point is there are more people who read, for whatever reason, than you wish to admit.

Have a nice day.

 

[ChristineM]

Have a nice day.

I usually do, thanks

 

[Moonjuice]

The authors did not have to rely on memory. The Holy Spirit was there to bring everything back to mind. That is why we get exact quotes.

Exact quotes? That is hilarious.

 

[England my lionheart]

Just been thinking. Now some argument is people deviated the texts is probably the argument that i can think of, to why retcon happend.

But just logically speaking. If people have bad memory of a text. Since muhammad in Islam was sent to unlettered people.... wouldnt this just be repeating the same mistake? Some can try to argue "Well it was collected by a reliable person, or reliable people". But does that qualify as legit? If one argues that memory forgets certain things over the years? Just mildly curious?

Edit: Update. Wanna update something. They may not think Quran is well preserved, but that the overall Biblical is deviated. So maybe i should update that as a question. But curious to what you think?

Just been thinking. Now some argument is people deviated the texts is probably the argument that i can think of, to why retcon happend.

But just logically speaking. If people have bad memory of a text. Since muhammad in Islam was sent to unlettered people.... wouldnt this just be repeating the same mistake? Some can try to argue "Well it was collected by a reliable person, or reliable people". But does that qualify as legit? If one argues that memory forgets certain things over the years? Just mildly curious?

Edit: Update. Wanna update something. They may not think Quran is well preserved, but that the overall Biblical is deviated. So maybe i should update that as a question. But curious to what you think?

christianity has had canons removed from the bible,book of Enoch being just one,Christianity has many branches too,Islam had the so called satanic verses where muhamed was almost tricked by a revelation that’s not in the Quran,Islam has many sects too,IMO it comes down to one thing,a human told them so and a lot of oneupmanship power and control.

 

[firedragon]

christianity has had canons removed from the bible,book of Enoch being just one,Christianity has many branches too,Islam had the so called satanic verses where muhamed was almost tricked by a revelation that’s not in the Quran,Islam has many sects too,IMO it comes down to one thing,a human told them so and a lot of oneupmanship power and control.

The satanic verses have no evidence whatsoever. What you are referring to is a story written by someone centuries after Muhammed died. I know this is quite famous on the internet with evangelical apologists but there is no validity for that. Unless of course you could provide some kind of manuscript evidence to that or something more valid than hearsay.

 

[Martin]

But the thing is its Islamic texts who says Bible has been corrupted. I just wanna test the argument is all. Nothing personal or anything, just want to hear what the argument would be.

Quran post-dates the Bible, so it would be easy to make such claims with no redress.
In any case, it just sounds like sectarianism to me. The Abrahamic traditions are well-known for in-fighting, the Crusades being an obvious example.

 

[England my lionheart]

The satanic verses have no evidence whatsoever. What you are referring to is a story written by someone centuries after Muhammed died. I know this is quite famous on the internet with evangelical apologists but there is no validity for that. Unless of course you could provide some kind of manuscript evidence to that or something more valid than hearsay.

ibn s’ad ibn ishaq,tasfir of al tabari,correct me if I’m wrong but the Quran was also written down a couple of centuries after Muhammad,it’s all the same to me.

 

[firedragon]

ibn s’ad ibn ishaq,tasfir of al tabari,correct me if I’m wrong but the Quran was also written down a couple of centuries after Muhammad,it’s all the same to me.

Well, you are wrong. Just saying "its all the same to me" is not evidence to what you are claiming. Study the topic a bit.

The Qur'an was written down in the 7th century and manuscripts alone can cover the Quran within the 1st century Hijri. So this "couple of centuries later" is a statement repeated by many just based on hearsay based on hearsay.

So can you provide evidence to the satanic verses other than just saying "Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Saad, atthabari? Attabari repeats Ibn Ishaqs narration, and through the history of islamic conservative scholarship people have rejected Ibn Ishaq as dubious. I think non-muslims like you are more dogmatically in love with some of the dubious sources in literature than the muslims themselves.

 

[Lars]

ibn s’ad ibn ishaq,tasfir of al tabari,correct me if I’m wrong but the Quran was also written down a couple of centuries after Muhammad,it’s all the same to me.

In Sunni hadiths, its mentioned that Zayd Ibn Thabit is the one who collects it. And that its written down in 7 different dialects. But on orders of Uthman, they have them burn all the manuscripts outside the one Zayd Ibn Thabit collected. Uthman was the third caliph. So its after two caliphs of Abu Bakr and Umar basically.

Aproximately. Muhammad died in 630 AD. And Uthman reigned from "6 November 644 – 17 June 656" (according to wikipedia sources on this one)
Muhammad - Wikipedia
Uthman - Wikipedia

The new testament. Jesus dies in 30 AD. First dated letter is either 45 AD or 50 AD by Paul. and gospel of mark was written first in 70 AD

 

[Clara Tea]

Just been thinking. Now some argument is people deviated the texts is probably the argument that i can think of, to why retcon happend.

But just logically speaking. If people have bad memory of a text. Since muhammad in Islam was sent to unlettered people.... wouldnt this just be repeating the same mistake? Some can try to argue "Well it was collected by a reliable person, or reliable people". But does that qualify as legit? If one argues that memory forgets certain things over the years? Just mildly curious?

Edit: Update. Wanna update something. They may not think Quran is well preserved, but that the overall Biblical is deviated. So maybe i should update that as a question. But curious to what you think?

Solmon Rushdie was issued a fatwa (death warrant) for suggesting that Islam had problems.

Virtually anyone who says negative things about Islam would be killed or maimed. This means that no one says things about Islam, and a few Islamics say bad things about Christianity.

Propaganda is rife in the middle east (hence the 911 attack).

 

[Lars]

Solmon Rushdie was issued a fatwa (death warrant) for suggesting that Islam had problems.

Virtually anyone who says negative things about Islam would be killed or maimed. This means that no one says things about Islam, and a few Islamics say bad things about Christianity.

Propaganda is rife in the middle east (hence the 911 attack).

The thing is islamic culture is about dominance. The text itself i mean, if you read Quran or Sunni hadiths or even Sunni Tafsirs on the commentary. The idea is about being dominated and dominate. But its more or less never resting there is what i mean. Christianity has had more history of criticism and critical thinking. Islamic world i dont think have that or are capable of it. Sure there is criticism if their sources are correct, but there is more of a problem if you try to criticize the moral problems with that religious culture in a sense.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The thing is islamic culture is about dominance. The text itself i mean, if you read Quran or Sunni hadiths or even Sunni Tafsirs on the commentary. The idea is about being dominated and dominate. But its more or less never resting there is what i mean. Christianity has had more history of criticism and critical thinking. Islamic world i dont think have that or are capable of it. Sure there is criticism if their sources are correct, but there is more of a problem if you try to criticize the moral problems with that religious culture in a sense.

Not all muslims are the same, not all muslims are afraid of critique and each muslim has his or her own understanding of the teaching. So it is a bit wrong to say what you did here

Islamic world i dont think have that or are capable of it.

 

[firedragon]

In Sunni hadiths, its mentioned that Zayd Ibn Thabit is the one who collects it. And that its written down in 7 different dialects. But on orders of Uthman, they have them burn all the manuscripts outside the one Zayd Ibn Thabit collected. Uthman was the third caliph. So its after two caliphs of Abu Bakr and Umar basically.

Aproximately. Muhammad died in 630 AD. And Uthman reigned from "6 November 644 – 17 June 656" (according to wikipedia sources on this one)
Muhammad - Wikipedia
Uthman - Wikipedia

The new testament. Jesus dies in 30 AD. First dated letter is either 45 AD or 50 AD by Paul. and gospel of mark was written first in 70 AD

You have not quoted the full hadith. Also you misquoted it too. Keeping aside you dont know why you believe this hadith is historical fact.

Try and cut and paste that hadith and lets see what you are speaking of. You will see what you have done.

 

[firedragon]

Solmon Rushdie was issued a fatwa (death warrant) for suggesting that Islam had problems.

Virtually anyone who says negative things about Islam would be killed or maimed. This means that no one says things about Islam, and a few Islamics say bad things about Christianity.

Propaganda is rife in the middle east (hence the 911 attack).

You are of course stating just some bias statements. Even bringing up 911 to propagate your anti islamic bias.

Nevertheless, have you read Rushdie's book?

 

[firedragon]

Well i did prove you right. Dominance is part of Sunni Islamic culture. See you are defensive. Which does prove my point. So i appreciate proving me right

You opened a topic about textual preservation, but the only thing you repeatedly stated was "Dominance is part of Islamic culture". The only thing you have been consistently stating repeatedly is that. I dont think this is a problem of your culture, or whatever your environment is. It could be, but I just dont think it is. I think its your personal issue.

You trying to repeatedly demonise "Islamic culture" and now somehow you say "Sunni Islamic culture", while another person similar to you is blaming Iran for a fatawa against Salman Rushdie which is "Shii Islamic culture" is just a show of generalisation of a bias. This kind of act is the definition of bigotry.

This inclination will even hold you back from having a discussion because the trump card will be pulled out in any discussion. Whats the trump card? "Islamic culture". So if the conversation is about clients, you will try to bring it to this trump card when ever you are challenged.

This is not a problem of culture. Its a personal issue.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

The new testament. Jesus dies in 30 AD. First dated letter is either 45 AD or 50 AD by Paul. and gospel of mark was written first in 70 AD

So now you are speaking about dating.

1. Can you tell me what is the oldest dated Quranic manuscript? How is it dated?
2. Paul was writing 20 years after Jesus, you said 45 AD. Nevermind, how is that dated?
3. What is the Oldest NT Manuscript, or lets say of Paul since you brought that up, and how is that dated?
3. Why have you taken hadith dated 300 years to 500 years after Muhammed to date the Quran which is a 7th century book, and how do you provide historical authenticity to what you claim?

 

[firedragon]

I never said it does, and i must say, though you are not unique in your love if words, many religious folk cannot say the same

And when people used the bible and Qur'an as a weapon or means if justifying any atrosities they do tend to earn a reputation

So you too found an opportunity to make scripture into the cause of violence flex in an irrelevant thread.

Anyway, ignoring your derogatory statements about "religious folk", I think you should educate yourself on world wars or battles in history a little more before you make this kind of uneducated statements about 'religious folk' and "bible and Qur'an". Speaking about books on Amazon, maybe you should order some books that are unbiased with good historical information.