Why do people expect God, do miracles?

[InvestigateTruth]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior

What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.


Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?

i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?

Is that a realistic expectation? Why?

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

 

[pearl]

Always found it to be interesting that in the Gospel of John, he refers not to miracles themselves, but to signs of something greater.

 

[Quintessence]

Theologically, it tracks.

That god is transcendent and considered separate from nature and is therefore not bound by its rules. Of course that god must do miracles and break the laws of nature - it is not limited by them. Violating natural law would be part of that god's own nature.

Contrast this with my own tradition, where gods are fully immanent and synonymous with nature. There, the gods are bound by its rules and miracles that break natural law do not occur.

 

[pearl]

Contrast this with my own tradition, where gods are fully immanent and synonymous with nature. There, the gods are bound by its rules and miracles that break natural law do not occur.

I agree. God does not have that power to break the laws he put in place.

 

[Brian2]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior

What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.


Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?

i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?

Is that a realistic expectation? Why?

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

The Bible says the Messiah will raise the dead and judge them and rule on earth and break some heads of rulers etc and many other things that Baha'u'llah did not do.
But Baha'u'llah and Baha'is do say that Baha'u'llah did those things. So you have allowed someone who claims to be the return of Christ to tell you that the Bible does not mean what it says concerning the Christ who would return and what He would do..................... imo.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Bible says the Messiah will raise the dead and judge them and rule on earth and break some heads of rulers etc and many other things that Baha'u'llah did not do.
But Baha'u'llah and Baha'is do say that Baha'u'llah did those things. So you have allowed someone who claims to be the return of Christ to tell you that the Bible does not mean what it says concerning the Christ who would return and what He would do..................... imo.

I think I get that now.
Basically the expectation that God and His Messenger are supposed to do Miracles, are based on Bible, or the so called Holy Books. More specifically, seems this expectation comes from treating a Holy Book literally. So, when it says, dead shall rise, that exactly means that. A physical event, nothing else.

 

[Heyo]

I think I get that now.
Basically the expectation that God and His Messenger are supposed to do Miracles, are based on Bible, or the so called Holy Books. More specifically, seems this expectation comes from treating a Holy Book literally. So, when it says, dead shall rise, that exactly means that. A physical even, nothing else.

Yep. But it is not Christianity alone or even the Abrahamic faiths, almost all religions are based in magical thinking. Even the claim that there is a god and that it sends messengers is magical thinking.

 

[Brian2]

I think I get that now.
Basically the expectation that God and His Messenger are supposed to do Miracles, are based on Bible, or the so called Holy Books. More specifically, seems this expectation comes from treating a Holy Book literally. So, when it says, dead shall rise, that exactly means that. A physical even, nothing else.

Yep it means what it says. If we start taking things as allegorical then we could conceivably make the Bible mean anything that we want it to mean by changing the definitions of certain words.
It does not work very well however and ends up just as a denial of what the Bible says. And this is exactly what Baha'is have to do in places where they can't make the Baha'i interpretation fit.

 

[danieldemol]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior

What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.


Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?

i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?

Is that a realistic expectation? Why?

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

I think the expectation is suitable to the claim of omnipotence, if God merely claims omnipotence but never demonstrates it, we have no way of differentiating an All-powerful God from an idle claimant.

Also Baha'u'llah claims that God works miraculously (see comments from authoritative Baha'i sources regarding the virgin birth of Jesus.)

Why should human co-operation and/or resistance be able to foil or even have an effect on omnipotence? I believe saying that human resistance is able to have any effect on God's ability or plan to save humans from their problems just seems like a subtle sub-concious admission that God is either not omnipotent or not distinguishable from a human level of potency which requires co-operation to have a noticeable effect.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think the expectation is suitable to the claim of omnipotence, if God merely claims omnipotence but never demonstrates it, we have no way of differentiating an All-powerful God from an idle claimant.

Also Baha'u'llah claims that God works miraculously (see comments from authoritative Baha'i sources regarding the virgin birth of Jesus.)

Why should human co-operation and/or resistance be able to foil or even have an effect on omnipotence? I believe saying that human resistance is able to have any effect on God's ability or plan to save humans from their problems just seems like a subtle sub-concious admission that God is either not omnipotent or not distinguishable from a human level of potency which requires co-operation to have a noticeable effect.

In my opinion.

So basically you are saying if God wants to convince humanity that He is omnipotent , He needs to demonstrate that by showing miracles.
Well, only if He wants to convince, I suppose yes. But does He?

 

[Koldo]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior

What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.


Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?

i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?

Is that a realistic expectation? Why?

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

It is the other way around: Why would anyone expect God to need people to cooperate?

 

[danieldemol]

So basically you are saying if God wants to convince humanity that He is omnipotent , He needs to demonstrate that by showing miracles.
Well, only if He wants to convince, I suppose yes. But does He?

Well it's your theology and up to your imagination i suppose, but one would consider that if God were "all-Merciful" God would do everything in their power to save everyone, especially if there is suffering involved in being deprived of belief. Therefore I believe it is drawing some basic ideas about your belief to their logical conclusion to say that your God would be expected to try and convince people.

In my opinion.

 

[Viker]

That's one of the expectations because it's one of the claims.

 

[Heyo]

So basically you are saying if God wants to convince humanity that He is omnipotent , He needs to demonstrate that by showing miracles.
Well, only if He wants to convince, I suppose yes. But does He?

Given the track record of all the supposed gods we can conclude that they are either unwilling or unable to convince - or don't exist at all.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yep. But it is not Christianity alone or even the Abrahamic faiths, almost all religions are based in magical thinking. Even the claim that there is a god and that it sends messengers is magical thinking.

Very true

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Theologically, it tracks.

That god is transcendent and considered separate from nature and is therefore not bound by its rules.

This Sounds logical.

Of course that god must do miracles and break the laws of nature - it is not limited by them. Violating natural law would be part of that god's own nature.

Perhaps God being supernatural is above the Law of nature, but why should the God breaks those natural laws for us, and show miracles?

Contrast this with my own tradition, where gods are fully immanent and synonymous with nature. There, the gods are bound by its rules and miracles that break natural law do not occur.

What is your own tradition? Hinduism?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Bible says the Messiah will raise the dead and judge them and rule on earth and break some heads of rulers etc and many other things that Baha'u'llah did not do.
But Baha'u'llah and Baha'is do say that Baha'u'llah did those things. So you have allowed someone who claims to be the return of Christ to tell you that the Bible does not mean what it says concerning the Christ who would return and what He would do..................... imo.

I see where you are coming from.
Jesus Himself often talked in Parables. Parables are not literal.
He often spoke a figurative language. For example He said "let the dead bury their own dead".
This type of language, is not an ordinary language that we speak everyday.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's one of the expectations because it's one of the claims.

Please elaborate.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Given the track record of all the supposed gods we can conclude that they are either unwilling or unable to convince - or don't exist at all.

Yes, those are the possibilities.
But again going back to idea of Miracles. Do you think Miracle would convince all?

I mean, it is said Moses did some Miracles. Jesus did also. Muhammad as well.
Why then most people in the world are not convinced if Miracles is the right way of convincing?
More importantly, obviously Miracles are not convincing, then why would a wise God do something that does not convince, given that He does want to convince?

 

[Koldo]

Yes, those are the possibilities.
But again going back to idea of Miracles. Do you think Miracle would convince all?

I mean, it is said Moses did some Miracles. Jesus did also. Muhammad as well.
Why then most people in the world are not convinced if Miracles is the right way of convincing?
More importantly, obviously Miracles are not convincing, then why would a wise God do something that does not convince, given that He does want to convince?

Because it is one thing to claim that someone performed a miracle and yet another to actually pull off a miracle.