Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That makes no sense because they would be saved if they were Christians.
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Why do people leave Christianity?
- Thread starter filthyrottendirty
- Start date
No if your saved your still a Christian.That makes no sense because they would be saved if they were Christians.
The bible doesn't end on that verse . Keep reading .
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
And is there any hard evidence that the claims of these people are correct?
Ah, of course. Always excuses to dismiss those you don't agree with, but surprisingly these excuses never seem to apply to the guys from your particular faith, do they?
Except that doesn't work, does it?
Let's say God has decided that you will die aged 99. And let's say that he has decided that the bus driver will die today, along with all the passengers on the bus, when the bus driver has a heart attack at the wheel and the bus goes over a cliff. You can not choose to catch that bus, can you? So God must be preventing you from catching that bus somehow. And yet, if you don't catch that bus, you will be late to work, and your boss will fire you. "But," you say to your boss, "it's not my fault, since I can't possibly be held accountable for being late!"
And this applies to every single action taken by anyone, anywhere.
"You can't hold me accountable for those people's murders," says the serial killer. "God had determined that they would die at the moment I killed them. By taking their lives, I was fulling the destiny that God had determined for me! I was unable to avoid my part in it. I had to do what I did, even if I didn't want to! And it is unethical for you to punish me for something I have no control over!"
This assumes God is micro managing everything. Even this reply .
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Then why did you say:
They leave' Christianity ' because they are not saved?
did you notice the ' ' ?
They leave ' Christendom ' .
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Well, if there's even a single thing that God has predestined, he has to micromanage everything. Or else he runs the risk of one of the things he ISN'T micromanaging disrupting his plans.
No verse says that though , so I don't believe it .
How does the conversation I had at the grocery store and me accidentally spilling my tea thwart Gods plans ?
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Well, Jesus then proceeds to explain the meaning of the sower parable to the apostles.
Yes then after that there's a whole load more scripture.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
And what, pray tell, does all the rest have to do with Jesus hiding the secrets of salvation....eh, never mind. Ever feel like you're on a merry-go-round?
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Well, since I don't know all the details of that conversation or the spilling of your tea, I can't say for sure, but I can easily imagine that a conversation at the grocery store could give you some idea that you would not have had otherwise. Perhaps a conversation about your lower back pain resulted in you learning about some treatment you weren't otherwise aware of. Perhaps a conversation about how you were taking photos of your kids at their sports match on the weekend and had trouble getting good shots convinced you to get a higher end camera rather than just using your phone.
And thus, your life goes down a road that it would not have otherwise gone down. In seeking this different treatment for your back pain, the doctor runs scans and discovers a tumor growing next to your spine which would have left you paralyzed within a year, but since they got it early, they can remove it and there you go, your life has changed completely. If it wasn't for that conversation, you would have ended up in a wheelchair, or worse. But now, you'll be able to walk for the rest of your life.
Or by buying a better camera, you find a hobby you have a passion for, and you quickly become a skilled photographer. And you decided to quit your job and become a wedding photographer full time. Your entire career path has taken a dramatic turn from the delivery driver job you used to have.
And you accidently spilling your tea might mean you leave home five minutes later because you had to change your shirt, thus avoiding the guy who ran a red light and would have crashed into your car at full speed, killing you instantly.
Of course, these aren't necessarily based on you. I don't know if you have lower back pain, or if you are a delivery driver, but the point is to show the kind of ways that a small decision can lead to large changes in your life. If God's plan was for you to die in a building fire because you can't get out because you are trapped by your wheelchair, then the conversation in the supermarket changes that. If God's plan was for you to die in a car crash during one of your delivery runs, that can't happen if you have a conversation that leads to you quitting that job.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That all depends upon what you mean by hard evidence. If you mean proof, no, as nobody can ever prove that someone was a Messenger of God.
You are making a straw man. They either had good fruits or bad fruits. False messengers have bad fruits and True Messengers of God have good fruits
Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit
It would apply only if every action was fated by God (predetermined) but that is not necessarily the case. Do you really want to enter the dark gloomy hallways of fate and predestination?
free will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=free+will+definition
I am not saying that we are free to choose anything we want to choose, because free will has constraints, but that is not because of God, it is because of other factors that cause us to choose what we choose (e.g., childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances.) It is the combination of these factors that will determine what we will choose to do. Also, if someone else does something that prevents us from doing something (like catching the bus) then we are not free to do it.
Here is the dictionary definition of free will:
free will
1 : voluntary choice or decision I do this of my own free will
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
Definition of FREEWILL
Here is my own definition of free will:
Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make some choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.
Some things are probably fated to happen and the way we know is that they will happen no matter how hard we try to prevent them from happening. For example, if someone is being treated for cancer that is incurable they have a certain fate that cannot be turned around no matter what they do. However, some diseased might have been prevented if we had ‘chosen’ to do something differently
As that quote I quoted says: “Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man.” So we have free will to choose between right and wrong, and we can make moral choices. That is why criminals are held accountable for their crimes in courts of law. Free will is assumed.
“Everyone wants to hold criminals responsible for their actions. This “responsibility” has its foundation in the belief that we all have the free will to choose right from wrong. What if free will is just an illusion, how would that impact the criminal justice system? Free will creates the moral structure that provides the foundation for our criminal justice system. Without it, most punishments in place today must be eliminated completely. Its no secret that I’m a firm believer in free will, but I’m also a firm believer in arguing against it when it helps my clients. That’s what we lawyers do (call me a hypocrite if you like, I can take it). Now, let’s delve into the issues and practical effects of eliminating free will.”
To continue: Free WIll, Determinism, and the Criminal Justice System
Jesus did that for a specific reason at that specific time .
Or we have free will and there are consequences for our actions . God gave us dominion to rule over the earth animals and to go forth and multiply. There are boundaries. Gravity , we can't fly and our bodies are subject to entropy and we die . This is what the bible says . Its Calvinsm that teaches absolute predestination.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Yeah, this doesn't actually address the points I raised...
How so ?