Why do so many accept that Genesis is fictional, but believe Exodus is historical?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It doesn't take a zillion Jews migrating for the essence of the story to be intact.

No, but it does take enough people that they could be considered "the Jewish people" at the time.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, but it does take enough people that they could be considered "the Jewish people" at the time.

It takes very few people to form a tribe or band of people.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It takes very few people to form a tribe or band of people.

In general, sure. OTOH, we can also reach a point where we've watered the myth down so much in the interest of making sure it isn't falsified that we can't honestly say that we're still dealing with the original myth.

How many people do you think it would have taken to form the "tribe or band" that became the Jewish people?

 

[columbus]

It takes very few people to form a tribe or band of people.

In general, sure. OTOH, we can also reach a point where we've watered the myth down so much in the interest of making sure it isn't falsified that we can't honestly say that we're still dealing with the original myth.

How many people do you think it would have taken to form the "tribe or band" that became the Jewish people?

To me this is the point.
How accurate must the story be to qualify as true or historical?

I can well imagine some Egyptian, on the run from a murder charge, inciting some malcontents into leaving Egypt. They go on a looting and pillaging spree for a few years, before being absorbed into the general population of Canaan. The legends grow with the passing generations, until we've got Exodus.

When it comes to these ancient, implausible, epics I generally start with the assumption that they grew from kernels of truth.
Tom

 

[Audie]

In general, sure. OTOH, we can also reach a point where we've watered the myth down so much in the interest of making sure it isn't falsified that we can't honestly say that we're still dealing with the original myth.

How many people do you think it would have taken to form the "tribe or band" that became the Jewish people?

The middle east was a pretty rough neighbourhood.
A small group would not stand a chance.

 

[Audie]

To me this is the point.
How accurate must the story be to qualify as true or historical?

I can well imagine some Egyptian, on the run from a murder charge, inciting some malcontents into leaving Egypt. They go on a looting and pillaging spree for a few years, before being absorbed into the general population of Canaan. The legends grow with the passing generations, until we've got Exodus.

When it comes to these ancient, implausible, epics I generally start with the assumption that they grew from kernels of truth.
Tom

sounds nicer to say that god gave them manna.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To me this is the point.
How accurate must the story be to qualify as true or historical?

I think that depends on what meaning the story is supposed to impart (or what meaning the audience wants to take from it).

At the very least, I would have thought that the meaning behind the story was that the Jewish people were set apart by God in some way. If the story gets watered down to "there was a small migration of people, as has happened countless times through history with countless peoples," then the story is useless for that purpose.

It also becomes useless as a foundation in other ways. Take the Jewish prohibitions on (certain types of) slavery: they - supposedly quoting God - say things like "because I your Lord delivered you from bondage in Egypt, don't subject your neighbours to bondage." If the Exodus story didn't actually happen in a way that could be reasonably interpreted as "delivering the Hebrews from bondage in Egypt," then the foundation of this particular moral tenet - and many others - is lost.

 

[columbus]

the very least, I would have thought that the meaning behind the story was that the Jewish people were set apart by God in some way. If the story gets watered down to "there was a small migration of people, as has happened countless times through history with countless peoples," then the story is useless for that purpose.

In a world where such legend are about all the history available, and not much questioned, I don't see why the fictionalization would matter. It's all most people had to go on.
Tom

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In general, sure. OTOH, we can also reach a point where we've watered the myth down so much in the interest of making sure it isn't falsified that we can't honestly say that we're still dealing with the original myth.

How many people do you think it would have taken to form the "tribe or band" that became the Jewish people?

A band is made up of 5-80 people. It is an extended family or a group of related extended families. A tribe is made up of bands linked by descent, language, culture, and ideology. Israel would have been made up of the 12 extended families at least, thus making it a very small tribe at the minimum by definition, perhaps no bigger than a band.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A band is made up of 5-80 people. It is an extended family or a group of related extended families. A tribe is made up of bands linked by descent, language, culture, and ideology. Israel would have been made up of the 12 extended families at least, thus making it a very small tribe at the minimum by definition, perhaps no bigger than a band.

So - 12 x 80: 960 people?

If the Jewish people originally migrated to Israel as a group of less than a thousand people, then the Exodus story is false.

And I think we've lost sight of what I said before: that the evidence suggests no migration at all, and that the Jewish people arose from the indigenous Canaanites.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So - 12 x 80: 960 people?

If the Jewish people originally migrated to Israel as a group of less than a thousand people, then the Exodus story is false.

And I think we've lost sight of what I said before: that the evidence suggests no migration at all, and that the Jewish people arose from the indigenous Canaanites.

Remember a band an extended family. It could be as little as 5 people. 5 x 12 = 60

And you are wrong, the evidence, as well as the reasoning, does not suggest that. I watched the same documentary. The so-called evidence of Canaanites alone was so scant that one could say the theory was built on pipe dreams of those who wanted to discredit the story.

 

[Shad]

I'm sorry, but even this theory does not negate the idea that there were Israelites who came out of slavery. It is one hypothesis.

That idea still does not align with biblical claims including numbers, leaders, etc. You are grasping at straws

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That idea still does not align with biblical claims including numbers, leaders, etc. You are grasping at straws

Like I have said on numerous occasions -- it is quite possible that the Exodus didn't happen the way the events are recorded in the sacred texts. It's historicity is unimportant to me. What is important about the story to me is that it defines to the Jewish people what it means to be a Jew.

 

[Shad]

Like I have said on numerous occasions -- it is quite possible that the Exodus didn't happen the way the events are recorded in the sacred texts. It's historicity is unimportant to me. What is important about the story to me is that it defines to the Jewish people what it means to be a Jew.

Ergo a foundation myth

 

[columbus]

Like I have said on numerous occasions -- it is quite possible that the Exodus didn't happen the way the events are recorded in the sacred texts. It's historicity is unimportant to me. What is important about the story to me is that it defines to the Jewish people what it means to be a Jew.

Why do you take this up with Shad?
He doesn't believe it, neither do I.

But the western Christian world is full of Bible literalists. Many of them post on RF. Why don't you take up this problem with them?
Tom

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ergo a foundation myth

A myth is something which didn't happen historically at all. A legend is a story which has a historical basis, although it didn't necessarily happen as it has been passed on orally or been recorded. I don't think the Exodus is a myth.

 

[Shad]

A myth is something which didn't happen historically at all. A legend is a story which has a historical basis, although it didn't necessarily happen as it has been passed on orally or been recorded. I don't think the Exodus is a myth.

The Bible's story is a myth. It didn't happen. The story isn't a legend as there no evidence it happened at all. The "legend" slant is just an ad hoc rescue

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Bible's story is a myth. It didn't happen. The story isn't a legend as there no evidence it happened at all. The "legend" slant is just an ad hoc rescue

Some of the Bible's stories are myths, such as the creation myth. But most of it meets my definition of legend, not myth. For you to say that legend is a subcategory of myth is to show your utter ignorance of what a myth is. I suggest you read Tolkiens essay "On Fairy Tales" to get an educated concept of myth.

 

[Shad]

Some of the Bible's stories are myths, such as the creation myth. But most of it meets my definition of legend, not myth. For you to say that legend is a subcategory of myth is to show your utter ignorance of what a myth is. I suggest you read Tolkiens essay "On Fairy Tales" to get an educated concept of myth.

I never said legend is a subcategory. Can you read son? "the story isn't a legend" I dismissed your claim it was a legend and said it is a myth. Try again