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Why do some Atheists, Christians, Hindu's etc., believe in Islamic ahadith so passionately?

DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

DVMAZ
Aupmanyav said:
No, I do not believe in existence of a God and a God doing all this. All this is but an illusion, a play that seems to happen, due to interaction of what physical energy creates, nothing other than flitting of physical energy. Perhaps you have heard of a verse in Gita which says nobody kills another and no one is ever killed. All these are appearances. What constitutes us is eternal, we are star-dust.

The Advaitists (non-dual Hindu philosophy, that is my belief) consider those who think what happens in the world as truth, are the real deaf, dumb and blind.

"ya enaṁ vetti hantāraṁ, yaś cainaṁ manyate hatam;
ubhau tau na vijānīto, nāyaṁ hanti na hanyate."
(Neither he who thinks this is the slayer nor he who thinks it is slain, both are never in knowledge, for this never slays nor is slain.)
BahagawadGita 2.19
yaḥ — anyone who; enam — this; vetti — knows; hantāram — the killer; yaḥ — anyone who; ca — also; enam — this; manyate — thinks; hatam — killed; ubhau — both; tau — they; na — never; vijānītaḥ — are in knowledge; na — never; ayam — this; hanti — kills; na — nor; hanyate — is killed.
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I agree that its not real, but I don't deny it is appearing, and I credit its appearance to "That One Thing".
 
Cooky

Cooky

Veteran Member
A Vestigial Mote said:
It's honestly NOT that we challengers to the faith or its notion actually believe these things. It is our chance to put a Muslim to the test by first confirming that they believe the texts/hadiths to be accurate and "good," and then point out to them that these other things (like the ones you mention above) also exist within.

I don't have to believe that these "hadiths" contain a single thing that is correct to point out that someone is being contradictory when they state that the advice/law laid down by them is "flawless" and yet then have to beg off, apologize for, or twist and turn words and meanings around when someone brings forward a difficult-to-swallow article.

It's precisely the same as someone stating something like "These are Bigfoot's tracks here in the mud!", but then you say: "Well, if we assume that those are Bigfoot's tracks, then why do they look exactly like bear tracks?" Are we literally believing that those tracks are Bigfoot tracks in that moment? No. Not in the slightest. And then, as a bear literally walks past, waves hello, and leaves a track that looks exactly the same, they still sit there blubbering about Bigfoot. Sometimes it even ends up a lot like that.
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We decide what texts are real. Not non-believers, who don't even speak Arabic.

If you cannot speak Arabic, then you can't even know anything.
 
Augustus

Augustus

…
9-10ths_Penguin said:
If this conversation actually happened on this forum, I trust you can give us a link. Offhand, I'm not really inclined to assume that your version reflects what was actually said.
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TagliatelliMonster said:
I don't understand at all and I think you are heavily misrepresenting the people you are talking about.
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What @firedragon said happens all the time on RF.

It's not people taking hadith/sira as authoritative, but assuming they should be considered historically accurate whenever they say something that can be used to paint Islam in a bad light.

If you point out that the only evidence for 'Bad Thing X' is hadith/sira literature written in 9th C Iraq which also contains things they obviously consider completely made up like splitting the moon and flying donkeys, they insist that while those events are nonsense, 'Bad Thing X' is surely historical fact.
 
Cooky

Cooky

Veteran Member
Aupmanyav said:
If you do not know Hebrew or Koine Greek, then you can't even know anything.
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images.jpeg-6.jpg
 
Samael_Khan

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
firedragon said:
I understand. Maybe we all move the goal post sometimes and I do get your point.

But my question is on the person, not the Muslim. A muslim may move the goalpost and play games to win an argument. But that is a Tu Quoque argument. Why would a non-muslim believe in some ahadith so passionately? It's either hypocritical, or simply ignorance. Maybe that non-muslim had never known any other hadith but only those which he found on a particular website.
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Is a muslim not a person? (lol)

Well, here is the thing, muslims take many practices from the ahadith, such as how to perform prayer etc, so some hadith must be valid in order to be so authoritative. Also tiny minority of Christians know the history of muslim scholarship back to front and are taking those scholars into consideration.

Ignorance is certainly part of it as well for laymen.

But I think that the true roots of the issue can be seen between how most Christian and Salafi apologists approach each others religions. I think it comes down to indoctrination and deliberate lying. Indoctrination in the sense that they think there respective religion is right therefore the other is wrong, and they repeat the same arguments over and over again because they aren't listening to the other side in any genuine and respectable manner and don't consider nuance. So in this application the Christian thinks that the ahadith is correct because they desperately want to debunk Islam and think that the ahadith provides proof condemning Islam from its own adherents, despite proof to the contrary. I think lying comes into it to convert the other side at all costs. So in this case the Christian might have received an answer debunking the use of the hadith in such a way but does it anyway for conversions sake. Also I know Christians who say that muslims are practicing Taqiyyah so they don't trust anything the muslims say.

In short, theoretically the Christian would use any opportunity to bring down Islam and will make themselves believe what is necessary in order to do so, such as the Hadiths condemning Islam being true.
 
Samael_Khan

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
exchemist said:
Surely what the responses are saying is that these critics of Islam don't believe the hadiths, but are quoting them as a means of showing up what they think are inconsistencies or unreasonable demands in Islam.

A great many non-muslims (including myself) do not fully understand the relation between the hadiths and the Koran or the degree to which they are seen as authoritative. So that's part of the problem, I expect.
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Your last point is definitely true. The big problem here is that the relationship between the texts is confusing because different muslims have different views of them, leaving Islam a mystery to outsiders and inaccessible to outsiders. I can even try to understand the Quran by reading it in English, but then even that is not enough to understand Islam because then muslims will say that you cannot understand the Quran in a translation. Then people study the language, read the Quran and come to different conclusions to modern muslims which they critique and then muslims say that the person cannot understand arabic.
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
Teacher knifed to death in France after showing class cartoons of Prophet Mohammad
PARIS (Reuters) - A middle school history teacher in France was knifed to death near the school where earlier this month he had shown his pupils cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad​


The question to ask is not...Why do some Atheists, Christians, Hindu's etc., believe in Islamic ahadith so passionately?

The question to ask is...Why do some Muslims believe in Islamic scripture so passionately?
 
Altfish

Altfish

Veteran Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
Do you have any beliefs? What do you believe that world is as independent of the mind? What is morally right and wrong? Is science right(non-moral) as for what the world is?
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I don't know about beliefs - belief to me is something based on dubious evidence. So, I happen to think that The Fall are the best band ever. But not many agree.
Morally right and wrong has nothing to do with religions, it is down to empathy, reciprocity, - The Golden Rule is a good starting point.
Science changes, develops, I would rarely call it 'right' but it is the best explanation for many (most) things.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Altfish said:
I don't know about beliefs - belief to me is something based on dubious evidence. So, I happen to think that The Fall are the best band ever. But not many agree.
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Yes, an opinion.

Morally right and wrong has nothing to do with religions, it is down to empathy, reciprocity, - The Golden Rule is a good starting point.
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So feelings in the end and not evidence.

Science changes, develops, I would rarely call it 'right' but it is the best explanation for many (most) things.
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You have to explain what things are.
 
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