Why do some atheists have to be so insulting and mean?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Thanks, but now I feel bad that I offended some atheists here when I in no way was referring to any atheists here... It is a small subset of atheists who are insulting and mean, thinking they are intellectually superior to believers... I do not know any atheists who are mean except this one I was referring to in the OP. And he is not really mean, he is just cold and insensitive. I cannot reach people like that so I decided I would just have to give up trying.

Most atheists just require more evidence for God's existence and that is not blameworthy at all. Sure, we see Baha'u'llah as evidence but not everyone thinks like we do. However, if they knew more of what we know and understood why we consider that evidence then they would at least have that opportunity... So that is what I try to do, understand where people are coming from and answer their questions and concerns... you know, the hollow reed thing.

In spite of a mildly rocky start, (op) I think you have demonstrated a strong empathy and kindness for others.

What more can one human ask of another human?

Your comment stood out the most, to me, just above: "he is just cold and insensitive. "

And I am sad you had to deal with someone like that-- too many people find it easy to be both, in faceless media like on-line forums.

I know a fair number of atheists who were repeatedly abused by religion and the people who think it's their Life Goal to force it upon everyone, and they have become cynical about religion in general.

I find that I, too, fall into that trap for much the same reasons-- emotional and sometimes physical abuse at the hands of "God's Personal Messengers".

You and others, help me to recognize when I do that, and I try to remember to not be that way.

Bottom line: You can always Kill Them With Kindness. right?

 

[Trailblazer]

So the views of thousands of sites are wrong. And, your only evidence is to assert that they're wrong. Maybe we should go to Clan sites to understand the true nature of THEIR beliefs, as well.

To compare the Baha’i Faith with the Clan is illogical right out the door. The Clan is not a religion. The Baha’i Faith is a widely recognized world religion. The fact that we only have about 7 million Baha’is in the world is easily explainable by the fact that the religion is relatively new. There are other reasons. The biggest obstacle to the growth of the Baha’i Faith is the fact that about 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion. So there you have 84% of the world’s population, the vast majority of which are not even willing to consider the Baha’i Faith in order to determine if it is true or not. Then we have the rest of the world’s population who are agnostics or atheists or people who believe in God but dislike any religion...

In spite of all of the obstacles that are in our way, it is amazing that the Baha’i Faith has grown as rapidly as it has and that it has the second fastest growth rate of any religion, closely trailing Islam. Indeed, some statistics show that the Baha’i Faith is growing faster than Islam. Our growth rate far surpasses the growth rate of Christianity at 1.36%.

I am not arguing with a straw man because I am not arguing in order to convince you of anything. I am just presenting information and some of that information is necessary to understand other information.

I am not saying that all the websites about the Baha’i Faith that are not “official” Baha’i websites are wrong. I am only saying that some of them are wrong. So, if someone knows nothing about the Baha’i Faith they could easily stumble upon one of the websites that are wrong and get misinformation. That is why it is best to go to an official Baha’i website or ask a Baha’i what other websites are accurate. There might be some Christian and Muslim websites that have accurate information, but usually they are on a mission to discredit the Baha’i Faith, since they see us as their competition. That is especially true of Christians since Baha’u’llah claimed to be the return of Christ, and Christians believe that the same man Jesus is yet to come down from the sky on a cloud. As such, the Baha’i Faith and Christianity are completely incompatible. The only thing we have in common is that we both believe in Jesus and what He taught. We also both believe in God, but Baha’is do not believe that God is divided up into three parts (Trinity). We believe similarly to Jews and Muslims, that God is One.

But you DO believe in Jesus, a soul, an afterlife, sin, and your ideology IS a mishmash of other ideologies. It is irrelevant if this makes your beliefs, or the version of your beliefs, unique.

We believe differently about Jesus, the soul, the afterlife and sin, and our beliefs about these are unique to the Baha’i Faith, which is what makes the Baha’i Faith unique. For example, we believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, not God incarnate. We believe the soul is a sign of God and it is what allows us to have rational thought; the soul is the sum total of our personality that leaves the body when the body dies and maintains its personality in the afterlife. Christians by contrast believe that the soul is just the breath of life and it expires upon death. Christians believe the physical body will be resurrected after they die, when Jesus returns. Christians believe we are born in sin because of Adam and Eve; Baha’is do not believe we inherited sin from Adam and Eve, but rather were are born as a clean slate, By contrast we believe that we are born as a clean slate and we have two natures; a higher spiritual nature that shows forth love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice and a lower material nature that shows forth untruth, cruelty and injustice. Given we have free will, we are responsible to choose to act according to our higher spiritual nature.

The Baha’i Faith is not a mishmash of other ideologies. It has its own ideology. The primary underpinning of the Baha’i Faith is Progressive Revelation, and no other religion has this theology. What the Bahai Faith shares with other major religions are the spiritual virtues such as faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. These virtues of humanity are the foundations of the Religion of God. They can never be abrogated because they are eternal spiritual truth that never changes. They are forgotten over time so they are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.

The social teachings and laws of religion are renewed in every new age because mankind and the world he lives in changes over time. Finally, each Messenger of God (Prophet) brings an entirely new message to humanity. The primary mission of each Messenger varies from age to age; and it is progressive, each mission building upon the previous one. Jesus focused on redemption of the individual, Muhammad focused on nation building, and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind. Each one of these was necessary for the next one to take place. Mankind’s spiritual evolution develops gradually or in stages, proceeding step by step, and that is why the deity reveals religious Truth in various increments over time. That is called Progressive Revelation.

No, like everything else you say, you simply assert, insinuate, or imply. This way you can deny everything when confronted. So let's put this theory to the test. There is no evidence that consciousness can exist outside of the mind, and without a functioning brain. Since reality is only a representation by the mind, why not NDE? You do realize that many of these experiences can be scientifically recreated under controlled conditions? Why don't you use dreams as a reason to believe in an afterlife? They also are created by the mind.

There is no proof that consciousness can exist outside of the mind, and without a functioning brain, but there is evidence that indicates that. The evidence is OBEs and NDEs. The fact that the same experiences can be scientifically recreated under controlled conditions does not mean NDE and OBE experiences are not real, logically speaking. Scientifically controlled experiments might emulate an NDE but they do not disprove the NDE or OBE experience because both can be valid experiences with different precursors.

I failed to mention that dreams are also supporting evidence that the brain can function when we are not conscious. Baha’u’llah refers to dreams in His Writings and explains how they are proof of an afterlife.

To expect extraordinary evidence to support extraordinary claims is certainly not illogical. In fact, it is logically expected. You have a right to believe anything you want, but you don't have a right to create your own logic. How do you know that no evidence exists that supports the existence of a God? Just because no one is able to present any, doesn't mean that none exists.

That is a straw man. I did not say that to expect extraordinary evidence to support extraordinary claims is illogical. That is perfectly logical. I said that to expect objective evidence of that which has no material properties is illogical.

If God is an immaterial Being then there can be no objective evidence because we cannot see or hear God. That is how I know that no objective evidence exists that supports the existence of a God. If God is a material Being all bets are off, but if God is a material Being it makes sense that someone would have been able to locate God on a GPS tracker by now, given God has been around since the beginning of time.

Evidence does exist that supports the existence of a God and it has been presented to humanity since the beginning of time. That evidence is the Messengers that God sends. God sends them as evidence of His existence but also because He has a message He wants humanity to have, for the betterment of himself and the world he lives in. There is no indication that God has ever provided any other evidence of His existence, but you can wait around that if you want to.

 

[Trailblazer]

Atheists are people too. Atheists are people first. Atheism is a infinitesimally tiny aspect of the make-up of an individual. Note that things like anti-theism or attacking specific elements of religion are above and beyond atheism itself.

Thanks for explaining that. Since I have only had experience with atheists online in forums where they are the majority and they have a disparaging attitude towards believers, obviously I am biased. Moreover, because I had a really bad experience with the atheist owner of that forum that makes me even more biased. As some atheists say, we are just people who do not believe in God. If they would leave it at that and not denigrate believers that would be fine. Keep in mind that I do not approve of believers denigrating atheists either. No human being should denigrate another human being for their beliefs or lack thereof, not any more than they should discriminate against them for their race, creed, color or gender. Discrimination of any kind is totally against by Baha’i beliefs, that we are all one people.

All that said, Baha’is are especially vulnerable to attacks by atheists since very many atheists were formerly Christians and they are none too happy with Christianity. As a result, they generalize from Christianity to all other religions, including Baha’i, and that is just as unfair as me saying all atheists are x because one or a few atheists are x, especially because the Baha’i Faith is very different from Christianity.

Also, you’d be amazingly lucky in life never to have been insulted by believers. Couldn’t it be that you just don’t identify them as such, that when an atheist attacks you, you blame atheists but when a believer attacks you, you blame people?

No, it is not that at all. Logically speaking, I am more likely to be insulted by an atheist than by a believer, because many atheists just think believers are brainwashed, uneducated, stupid and irrational, whereas other believers never call me those names. At most they disagree with my Baha’i beliefs, and they definitely do that. They just normally do not insult me as a person, unless they are a really unbalanced Christian who thinks that we are the antichrist or even of the devil.

Again, my experience is limited to atheists online, a small subset of the overall population, so it is not representative of atheists as a whole. The problem is that in The United States where I live, only about 3% of the population is atheists, so I am not likely to run into an atheist anywhere but forums.

But since we’ve agreed there is no evidence of believers being more (or less) moral than non-believers, it would suggest “fear of God” is no better a deterrent than anything else. You clear implication when you brought it up was that belief in God is some kind of additional deterrent which makes believers more likely to be moral. You seem to be (correctly) stepping back from that.

Sorry, you are correct. There is really no evidence that believers are more moral than atheists and again I am probably biased by the atheists I have encountered on one particular forum. I get the idea that fear of God is a strong deterrent from something I read in the Writings of my religion but it did not say it is a better deterrent than any other. Personally, I think one’s conscience is the best deterrent. I watch a lot of true crime programs on TV and it is amazing what people do to each other. It often comes out in the story that they had a religion but obviously that was not a deterrent from committing a heinous murder(s) invariably for selfish reasons such as money or sex. I can only guess those people do not have a conscience; either that or they are terribly disturbed emotionally or mentally ill.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmm. That would mean the messengers only talk about what they know of god but not the essense of god because they dont know either?

Good question. I am not quite sure. In the Baha’i Writings it says:

"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attain in the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)
Lights of Guidance (second part)

Clearly, the Messengers know more about God than they tell us, but I am not sure if they know the Essence of God. Even if they did know, they would do not tell us because we could never understand the Essence of God.

Moreover, there are many things that the Messengers know that they do not tell us, since we cannot understand all of it and we do not need to now it all. What we are allowed to know is reveled incrementally, as we need it and are able to understand it.

Attributes are not the essense?

No, Attributes are the qualities of God.

Here are some of God’s Attributes that are unique to God: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, All-powerful, Everywhere-present, All-Wise, All-Knowing, Simple (one in essence), Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Immaterial.

Here are some of God’s Attributes that the Messengers reflect: Goodness, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Forgiving, Sovereign, Patient.

The Essence of God is God’s intrinsic nature, as well as where God resides, how God functions, what God does and how God does it, stuff like that.

How do you know his attributes when the essense the attributes describe are hidden?

We know God’s Attributes because the Messenger reflects God’s attributes in His Person and the Messenger reveals God’s Attributes in His Writings.

Evidence of someones actually existence is independent of our beliefs. Unless you are saying god only exists to the people who choose to believe he does.

I have to say that you are extremely sharp.

As I always say, God either exists or not. Whether God exists or not has nothing to do with what we believe or disbelieve. Whether God exists or not has nothing to do with the evidence either, because God could conceivably exist and provide no evidence of His existence. God does provide evidence in the Messengers, but even if He did not, God could still exist.

Evidence is simply what people want in order believe in God, and this is a reasonable expectation. I do not believe in pink unicorns because there is no evidence that they exist. But for people to say there is no evidence that God exists is ridiculous. Everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is more than adequate evidence. The fact that nonbelievers do not consider Messengers as evidence is something I don’t understand. What better kind of evidence could God provide but a perfect Manifestation of Himself?

Evidence of attributes that are always hidden? (Or the attributes are the only ones you know of god?) Referring to the clarification needed in the last two statements.

The Attributes of God are not hidden, they are reflected or revealed by the Messenger. That does not mean we can understand all of them though. For example, we cannot understand what it means to be omnipresent or omnipotent. All we have are human words, but words fall short in describing an ineffable God.

You cant know that 'cause you dont know his essense and said he is unknownable. Is god define by his essense or his attributes?

God is defined by His Attributes. We do not need to know God’s Essence. It is far beyond our understanding.

That would take a huge amount of faith and trust. Though, if the attributes do not describe the essense of god, whatever attributes you have could probably be shared by many god religions; but, because we dont know the essense, most likely (its a fact according to all other faiths) its not the same god.

The Attributes and the Essence of God are entirely separate. Nobody can know the Essence of God so nobody can describe the Essence of God. We can only know and describe the Attributes of God because the Messenger reflects and reveals those Attributes. Those Attributes are unchanging and are consistent across revelations from God, so all the Messengers reflect and reveal the same Attributes of God. So, Jesus and Moses reflected and revealed the same Attributes of God as did Muhammad and Baha’u’llah.

So you are correct, the Attributes of God are shared by many God religions.

There is only One God that revealed all the religions, and that God has the same Attributes and the same Essence. The Attributes and Essence of God never change. The only thing that changes with every new religion is the Will of God, some of which is different in every new age. The Will of God is revealed by the Messenger and whatever the Messenger reveals is identical to the Will of God. The Will of God can be thought of as what God wants us to do, the teachings and laws of the religion.

Oh. If gods existence is only proof to you through the voice of the messengers, our beliefs shouldnt "make god appear." If he is a fact, his existence is not dependent on our beliefs.

Excellent. No, God’s existence is not dependent upon beliefs.

I am so glad someone finally figured this out.

God either exists or not.

Messengers were either sent by God or not.

What people believe or disbelieve has nothing to do with it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Having knowledge about anything is meaningless. Knowledge can be anything that the mind can create. It doesn't matter if it's only a mental or physical construct. What makes knowledge relevant, is its level of object certainty. Science only accepts the knowledge it receives, from the highest level of this object certainty.

That is what makes knowledge relevant to you, but what is certainty to you is not the same as what is certainty to me. I am as certain that what I know from the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is true as you are certain that scientific facts are true. I am also certain that scientific facts are true since one does not preclude the other; they are simply different kinds of knowledge, religious and scientific. Moreover they are like two wings of a bird and humanity needs both to function properly, to grow and develop, to prosper and advance.

If the evidence is enough for you to believe, it should also be enough for anyone to believe. Why would any critical thinker need to convince himself? It seems more the case that your belief is based not on evidence, but on faith, and the need to believe in anything that is greater than ourselves. This level of religiosity only gives the perception of certainty, not certainty.

You are correct. According to Baha’u’llah, everyone has the “capacity” to believe in God through recognition of His Messenger. However, not everyone is going to believe in God or in Baha’u’llah and there are myriad reasons why not. One reason is that God guides certain people, and He guides those who He knows will be humble and open-minded and are willing to make the necessary effort. He does not guide those who have rebelled against His Messenger because that would be a violation of freewill. God want belief to be a choice. It has always been that way throughout history.

My belief is based upon evidence and faith. The supernatural beliefs such as God, the soul and the afterlife can never be proven so they are taken on faith, but it is a reason-based faith because it has good evidence to back it up and it makes logical sense.

 

[Trailblazer]

In your example Baha'u'llah claimed, a claim is not evidence unless verified as valid. Say for instance i claim to be a messenger of a god... Is that evidence that i am a messenger from a god? I am sure you would not take my claim as evidence... Would you?

Of course a claim is not evidence because that would be circular reasoning.

There is no proof that Baha’u’llah got a message from God, so all we can do is look at the evidence that “indicates” that He was a Messenger of God. That is what I did and continue doing, as one cannot ever be too sure when it comes to things as important as God.

The evidence that “indicates” that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is as follows:

• What He was like as a person (His character);
• What He did during His mission on earth;
• The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
• The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
• What others have written about Him;
• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
• The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The predictions He made that have come to pass;
• The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.

 

[Trailblazer]

Some people are jerks. Sorry you have to deal with it.

Thanks.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I communicate, I do it to cause an intended effect in the person hearing me: I want to inform them, persuade them, make them feel a particular way, etc.

If I intend for my message to make the listener feel one way but they end up feeling the opposite, then my communication has failed in its purpose.

I do not communicate like you or for the same reason. I just say what is on my mind and try to be clear and respectful in how I say it. I have absolutely no interest in having any effect upon those I am posting to. I do not even think in those terms. Sometimes I want to inform them but I do not want to persuade them. I am not trying to make the listener feel any particular way. I only want to avoid offending anyone, but that is not always possible because sometimes people misconstrue my words and/or my intentions.

The only exception is that if I identify with someone’s personal story and I feel empathy for them, I might want them to feel that I understand and care about them.

So what I can see happening is that you are “projecting” onto me how you communicate and why, thus it is no wonder you think my communication failed. If you or anyone ends up feeling offended then I try to start over and explain what I meant by what I said.

I did ask you... and I do still feel insulted. Nobody's forcing you to care, but if you don't care that you insulted me, this is going to frame my opinion of you.

I do care, but if you felt insulted by something I said even though it was not meant to BE an insult, then you misinterpreted what I said; either that or you consider something an insult that I do not consider an insult.

All I can do is try to understand WHY you felt insulted but if you are misconstruing what I meant and insist I meant something if did not mean then we are at an impasse. For example, if I said I did not mean all atheists but only some atheists and if you insist I meant all atheists, I cannot do anything about that. Also, if you feel offended that I think some atheists are insulting and mean, I cannot help that, unless I lie and say that I do not think that. I do not think YOU are insulting and mean because you have not been insulting and mean.

I think you've clarified things enough that I'm pretty confident I haven't misinterpreted you. The only question at this point is whether I was right in finding what you said insulting.

Again, just because YOU felt insulted does not mean what I said was insulting. This is the problem I had with the atheist I was referring to in the OP. He felt insulted by something that was not intended to be an insult and that nobody else considered an insult except one other person, who is one of his cronies.

So it is not a matter of who is right. Nobody is right or wrong, we just have different perspectives. For example, that atheist I referred to in the OP does not think calling me brainwashed is an insult but I feel insulted. From his perspective he is right that I am brainwashed so he owes it to me to tell me the truth, as he understands it. But Ifeel insulted. Not only that, but when he called other Baha’is brainwashed, all of them felt insulted. Likewise, I said some atheists are insulting and mean because that is what I have experienced, and you feel insulted because you are an atheist. But I am not referring to you because you are not one of the atheists who was insulting and mean.

If you feel insulted then I just have to do what I can do to explain and if you still feel insulted I cannot do anything about that.

I think this is excuse-making to avoid being responsible for the effects of your actions on others.

I am not responsible for the feelings of others. I am only responsible for my own behavior. This is basic psychology. Ask any counselor or psychologist. If I was insulting and mean like that atheist I referred to in the OP then I would be responsible for my bad behavior, but I have not been insulting and mean to you.

You weren't courteous or respectful, IMO. And the only measure of "actually insulting" is whether someone was actually insulted, which they were.

No, how you feel is not the measure. If you want you can start over and explain what I said that was insulting, because I get so many posts that I forgot.

"You're resposible for your own feelings" is something we say to people who have been hurt by others to empower them not to dwell on it. It doesn't excuse impolite actions.

What did I say that was impolite? I am waiting. I can be very direct but I am not impolite. I have worked for the government for over 40 years and not once have I ever been accused of being impolite, nor have I ever had one conflict with a coworker or a boss. I am no different on forums than in real life. I am who I am.

I know. That's what I was referring to.

So are you saying that it is rude for me to say that some atheists are rude and mean? What if they are? Am I supposed to not share that because it might offend a couple of atheists on this forum? I am sure you have no idea what that atheist referred to in the OP did to me. And it is not only me. My atheist friends had to leave his forum because he is such a control freak. After I told him I had verifiable proof I did not do what he accused me of doing, he should have apologized to me, but instead he ignored me because apparently he could not admit he was wrong.

But you generalized the conduct of one atheist to "some atheists." You also focused on his atheism and not any of his other traits.

No, I explained on this thread that there has been more than on atheist who was rude and insulting, thus the word “some.” But when I posted the OP it was just one I was thinking about. I did not post the OP to talk about his other traits. I know he has good traits, we all do. It does not do me any good to tell him how I feel and try to make amends because he won’t even read my private messages because as he told my husband he is mad at me for a number of reasons. There is nowhere I can go with that. I cannot work things out unless I know what he thinks I did.

Please note that I did not focus on his atheism at all. I have NO problem with his atheism and I have told him that. I only have a problem with his unjust behavior, as well as his personal insults which are against his own forum rules. But I let that go until he started accusing me of things I did not do or say. Moreover, I am not the only one who feels this way about him. I am not allowed to make one mistake without him chastising me and assuming I will make the same mistake again four years later.

So you think that he is responsible for your feelings here?

I am responsible for my own feelings but he is responsible for his behavior that caused me to feel this way. He caused me to feel this way because he insisted he knew what I meant by what I said. But he cannot POSSIBLY know what I meant by what I said. Only I know what I meant.

If the message you express doesn't match what you intended to express, that's your problem, not his.

No, I disagree. Everyone is going to interpret the same words I write a little differently. Some will understand what I intended to express and some won’t. Some will at least be in the same ball park but some will be way out in left field. If only this man does not understand what I intended to express, chances are he is the one who is out in left field.

I wasn't privy to that conversation, but frankly, what you've said in this thread is consistent with you hating atheism (edit: while not wanting to be seen as hating atheism).

NO, you are way out in left field. I never SAID I hated atheism or even atheists, so you reading into something I said and projecting your own feelings upon it. Show me one thing I said that says anything about hating atheism. All my best forum friends are atheists, and I only have one good forum friend who is a believer. That is the evidence I do not hate evidence, my behavior. Words can be misconstrued and often are, but only one other poster in all the posters I posted to on this thread interpreted what I said in the OP as you did, taking it so personally. The others understood what I meant and if they didn’t, they understood it after I clarified. But you keep telling me what YOU THINK I meant when I never said that at all. That is what this atheist referred to in the OP does. I cannot communicate with people who tell me what I mean. That is a clear boundary violation and they know so little about psychology that they do not even know what a boundary violation is.

But anyhow, I am sorry if I offended you in any way. I take no issue with atheism. It is a respectable position given there is no proof that any God exists. I have simply had some painful experiences with some atheists. That is because of their personalities, not because of their atheism.

 

[Trailblazer]

God could provide objective evidence if He wanted to, like obvious incidents where the laws of nature are not followed.

That is a good point Duane. That would be indirect evidence that God did something, so it would indicate that God exists. But some people would STILL not believe it was God’s doing. They would just be freaked out.

Baha’u’llah wrote that God could provide objective evidence of His existence if God wanted to, and Baha’u’llah also explained why God doesn’t do so:

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

So really my point to Truly Enlightened is that God does not provide objective evidence of His existence, not that God can’t. So waiting for God to provide objective evidence is like waiting at an abandoned train station waiting for a train to come in.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what is the difference between happy and truly happy? LOL
While you are at it, define spiritual. I have only met human beings that are corporeal.

Of course we all have a body, but the body is just a “vehicle” that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth. The physical body is not the essence of who we are. The soul is our essence, the sum total of our personality. When I said we are spiritual beings and not physical beings I meant it in that context.

I am going to answer your questions in reverse order because you need to know what I mean by spiritual in order to understand the difference between happy and truly happy.

In man there are two natures, his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men.

Love, mercy, grace, kindness to all, compassion, philanthropy, knowledge, high aspirations, justice, truth, trustworthiness, meekness, humility, detachment, patience and constancy are all expressions of man’s spiritual nature. Every good habit, every noble quality, belongs to man’s spiritual nature.

The opposite of the spiritual nature is the material nature. Selfishness, untruth, cruelty and injustice are all the outcome of his material nature.

Man is truly happy when he is expressing his spiritual nature. I am truly happy when I am thinking about others, not when I am thinking about myself and the transitory things of this world.

“You see all around you proofs of the inadequacy of material things—how joy, comfort, peace and consolation are not to be found in the transitory things of the world. Is it not then foolishness to refuse to seek these treasures where they may be found? The doors of the spiritual Kingdom are open to all, and without is absolute darkness.....

Thus, spirituality is the greatest of God’s gifts, and ‘Life Everlasting’ means ‘Turning to God’. May you, one and all, increase daily in spirituality, may you be strengthened in all goodness, may you be helped more and more by the Divine consolation, be made free by the Holy Spirit of God, and may the power of the Heavenly Kingdom live and work among you”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 111-112

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, those are all valid definitions. Knowledge is a subset of belief. You can believe something without knowing it to actually be true. Knowledge requires verifiable information. Belief only requires a desire to believe. Children believe there is a Santa Clause. That does not mean that there really is one. So while many children believe there is one, no child knows that there is one.

Correct, if you are going by this definition of knowledge: [2 a : the sum of what is known : the body of truth, information, and principles acquired by humankind],knowledge requires verifiable information. Also, one can believe something without knowing it to actually be true in the sense of having verifiable information to prove it is true.

Where does one look for independent verification of the facts you claim to know about Baha’u’llah?

There is a lot of information out there on the web and in books but one has to be careful what they read because there are many people who seek to discredit the Baha’i Faith. Some are former disgruntled Baha’is but more are Muslims and Christians who see the Baha’i Faith as competition. Obviously, this will not be objective information. There is some information written by non-Baha’is that is objective but not much, for the simple reason that most people who research the Baha’i Faith in depth end up becoming Baha’is. Some of those people were those who sought to disprove it, but they failed.

A good book to read that provides a general overview is Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era. That version is easier to read online. The downloadable version is in the new Baha’i Reference Library: Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

Please provide a few of the facts and provide references from sources other than your religious book that verify the facts.
They need to be things that are verifiable and need to be things that could not have been learned any other way.

I am not sure what you mean by facts and I am not sure what you are seeking to verify. Are you talking about facts about Baha’u’llah? That would be documented in the history of the Faith. There are also a lot of u-tube videos that depict the life of Baha’u’llah and the history of the Baha’i Faith accurately.

I consider what the Baha’is have written about the Baha’i Faith to be the facts since they know the most about the Faith. Books have been written about the Baha’i Faith that are not part of the scriptures, and the history of the Baha’i Faith has been documented in several large volumes. There is no accurate history written by any non-Baha’is because there was never any reason for them to document the history in detail. This is a relatively new religion. In the future there will be much more written about it as we find for the older religions.

You've been very patient....I know that I get pointed.

No problem. This is what I do. If you want me to point you to sources to research I would have more time to look for those on the weekend. I am treading water on my work days and I am close to going under.

 

[Trailblazer]

I want to apoligize for my response to your original opening post. I had thought you were speaking the truth when you spoke about lumping atheists into the group you about were complaining about. I don't come here often as I have a lot of things going on in my life which have little to do with being "on line".

Well, with all the posts flying at me from so many different posters, I cannot remember what you said, but I accept your apology. This forum is a great forum but it is difficult for me to negotiate since there are so many posters all with different beliefs and non-beliefs and different handles. I like that variety, it is just difficult to keep up all the posts since I have a lot of things going on in my offline life. I have not been posting on this forum for more than a few months. Before that, I had been posting primarily on that primarily atheist forum comprised of a small group of posters and we all knew each other pretty well. The forum design was simpler than this one and easier to negotiate. I also have my own forum in that forum group, and I have to answer posts there, although it is not very busy right now.

I posted the OP on the fly right after I had a falling out with the atheist forum owner who I had liked and trusted. Apparently he had been harboring ill will towards me and waiting for an opportunity to pounce on me and he finally did. I don’t understand people who think and live that way. All I wanted was to be his friend, and the friend of everyone on his forum, but I finally had to accept that just because I accept atheists for who they are they are not necessarily going to respond in kind. I finally had to leave that forum after four years. That decision was long overdue but I am not one to give up on people easily.

Admittedly, it is easier for me to accept atheists than those of some religious beliefs such as Christianity, because I consider atheism more rational than traditional Christianity. But I still accept Christians for what they believe since it is an important Baha’i teaching that we associate with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. Baha’u’llah wrote that whatsoever has led the humanity to shun one another, and has caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, has now been nullified and abolished by His Revelation.

By proclaiming the Cause I am letting people know that Baha’u’llah has come and that God has spoken again to all of humanity through Baha’u’llah in clear unequivocal language. What will benefit all of humanity is the primary message that mankind is one, and peace and word unity will be established in this religious cycle (see below).

I am letting them know Baha’u’llah has come. What they do with that information is entirely up to them. If they become Baha’is or even if they do not, they can choose to be part of building the New World Order, so it will be built sooner rather than later (see below).

I am going to be a bit lazy and post some of the most important Baha’i teachings that are summarized on Wikipedia and you can read about them in depth on the link. There is so much more but I am kind of on the run right now. I can come back to this later if you like and even explain what it is about the Baha’i Faith that attracted me.

• The oneness of God.
• The oneness of humanity.
• The oneness of religion.
• Religion as a school.
• Equality of women and men.
• Harmony of religion and science.
• Universal compulsory education.
• Universal auxiliary language.

Bahá'í teachings - Wikipedia

Indeed, I will be missing a lot of the life I have left if I keep living as I am living now, with complete dedication to this Cause. See the last part of this post to better understand why I do what I do. It is not something most people would understand, especially if they are not a Baha’i. Not even all Baha’is would understand why I think it is this important, as they all have their own interests and activities and many of them are more involved in the Baha’i administration and in community building than in proclaiming the Cause, and teaching when people show an interest, as I do.

Briefly, I already lived most of my life turning away from God and the Baha’i Faith. I became a Baha’i over 47 years ago, and I lived most of my life as if it didn’t exist. I went to college for over 15 years and amassed several degrees, had a career, travelled a lot, had a husband and a life that did not include religion or God. The reason I turned away from God and religion would take more explaining than I have time for now.

Suffice to say, I only got serious about God and the Baha’i Faith about five years ago when I first discovered forums. I was ready for a change at that time. I had had enough of living for this material world and what it has to offer. I had repressed all of what I had learned about Baha’i and I had to drag it out of the closet. I also learned so much more that I had never known before, mostly because on the forums I got so many questions, so I had to do a lot of research. I had a light bulb moment when I read and understood more of what Baha’u’llah had written and how humongous is this Cause. After that I could not go back to my old life that just included me and my husband and many cats.

Guessing is not usually a good way to obtain accurate information. In short, what you find strange is the way it is on many forums. This forum is rather unique. On most forums, if one is a Baha’i on a non-Baha’i forum they will get a lot of guff from atheists, agnostic, Christians and even from Jews. The nonbelievers do not like religion in general so the last thing they want is a new religion like Baha’i. Moreover, they are very suspicious of the Baha’i Faith because its history is very tumultuous and there were many opposing factions. Christians and Jews do not like Baha’is because we say Baha’u’llah is the Messiah they have been waiting for, and if that is true, that means that their older religions have been abrogated. They don’t like that because they both believe that they have the only true religion. The same is true for Muslims but I do not see many in forums.

The reason I was the Baha’i getting guff on the mostly atheist forum was because I was the only Baha’i who dared to talk about Baha’i on that forum. Other Baha’is knew about that forum but they refused to take the insults and constant accusations of proselytizing, when all we do is share what we believe, never try to convince or convert. That is unjust, but the forum owner sets the rules.

In that forum group I was posting in, many people get banned from forums, not just Baha’is. However, all a Baha’i has to do is say boo and they get banned from a Christian forum. I mean we are making a bold claim, that Baha’u’llah is the return of Christ, and Christians are still waiting for the same Jesus to return, so I am sure you can do the math.

No matter how hard I tried, I was not able to convince the atheist forum owner that I accepted him as an equal. All he could see was that I believed in God and Baha’i, so he could not understand how I could accept atheism. I think some others on that forum did understand but since the forum owner didn’t that did not help me because he sets the tone and runs the forum like a dictatorship. Moreover, he made no qualms about stating that he disliked the Baha’i Faith more than any other religion. Part of the reason is that he was swayed by what he read that was written by detractors, calumniators. That just confirmed what he wanted to believe, and he would not look at what the Baha’i Faith actually teaches.

I have absolutely no personal problems with anyone on any forums. I only had a problem with the one atheist forum owner. A while back, I also had a problem with an agnostic forum owner, for similar reasons. In case you have not noticed, most nonbelievers do not like religion, so I became their worst nightmare and a punching bag since I continually stood up for my religion and would not back down. But I was always polite.

In brief, the Cause that Baha’u’llah wants me to proclaim is that God has spoken again and we now have a new religion God wants everyone to adhere to, a religion that will eventually unite all the older religion under one banner. The “time of the end” referred to in the Bible means the end of an age, not the end of the world.

Baha’u’llah was the Promised One of all ages who fulfilled the prophecies of all former religions. A new religious cycle was ushered in by the Bab and Baha’u’llah in 1844. We are living in the beginning of an entirely new age, a Golden Age, wherein the Kingdom of God on earth will be established.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

The Kingdom of God is also referred to as the New World Order:

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

What could be more important than working for this Cause? I sure do not know of anything.
With this knowledge comes great responsibility.

 

[Trailblazer]

So when you say that proclaiming "the cause" is the most important thing you can do in your life according to your Messenger, what exactly is the proclamation?

I am letting them know Baha’u’llah has come. What they do with that information is entirely up to them. As I said in my previous post, if they become Baha’is or even if they do not, they can choose to be part of building the New World Order, so it will be built sooner rather than later.

What does your sacrifice do to help you and what does your sacrifice do to help humanity?

It helps me because I know I am doing the most important thing I can do with my time and a secondary benefit is that I am growing spiritually. I will allow the following passages summarize how this new religion will help humanity.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure. Our hope is that the world’s religious leaders and the rulers thereof will unitedly arise for the reformation of this age and the rehabilitation of its fortunes. Let them, after meditating on its needs, take counsel together and, through anxious and full deliberation, administer to a diseased and sorely-afflicted world the remedy it requireth…. It is incumbent upon them who are in authority to exercise moderation in all things. Whatsoever passeth beyond the limits of moderation will cease to exert a beneficial influence. Consider for instance such things as liberty, civilization and the like. However much men of understanding may favorably regard them, they will, if carried to excess, exercise a pernicious influence upon men…. Please God, the peoples of the world may be led, as the result of the high endeavors exerted by their rulers and the wise and learned amongst men, to recognize their best interests. How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? How long will injustice continue? How long is chaos and confusion to reign amongst men? How long will discord agitate the face of society?… The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divideth and afflicteth the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective. I beseech God, exalted be His glory, that He may graciously awaken the peoples of the earth, may grant that the end of their conduct may be profitable unto them, and aid them to accomplish that which beseemeth their station.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 215-217

“O contending peoples and kindreds of the earth! Set your faces towards unity, and let the radiance of its light shine upon you. Gather ye together, and for the sake of God resolve to root out whatever is the source of contention amongst you. Then will the effulgence of the world’s great Luminary envelop the whole earth, and its inhabitants become the citizens of one city, and the occupants of one and the same throne. This wronged One hath, ever since the early days of His life, cherished none other desire but this, and will continue to entertain no wish except this wish. There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you. This, verily, is the most exalted Word which the Mother Book hath sent down and revealed unto you. To this beareth witness the Tongue of Grandeur from His habitation of glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 217-218

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know.
And I certainly don't know any like that here.

I agree, there are not any like that here. However, I do not think this forum is representative, although I could be wrong.

.....and stupid ....

If anybody calls you stupid here on RF they would get nobbled for it by the mods.

Good for them. That is how it should be.

If atheists want to say they need no God for morality then some of them are not doing a very good job of demonstrating that with their air of superiority, arrogance, and rude behavior, not to mention dishonesty, lack of self-awareness and unjust treatment of others.

...and now you've changed 'some atheists' into 'atheists'.
Is this a general rant about atheists?

No, it is not. I said “some of them” referring to the “If atheists.” I have no problem with atheists and they are my best forum friends. I only have a problem with the behavior of some atheists.

So what?
I'll let you into an Oldbadger secret. When some folks tell us about how highly educated they are, it often seems as if they want to win some debate or contention just by throwing their qualifications down like some winning hand at cards. And it doesn't work.
What makes the difference here is what gets written down for all to see. Our posts show what we have found out, etc.

You are right. The posts tell a lot about the posters. Education does not make a person moral, it just makes them educated. I just pointed out that I have a lot of education because that atheist forum owner considered education so important, yet it had to be a certain kind of education. Any social science degrees were considered junk science.

I'm sad to read about how badly you have been treated by some atheists, but in my experience the forums with a 'lean' towards atheism are very well behaved when compared with some more extreme religious forums, a couple of which are utterly shocking.

Thanks. I guess I just had a bad experience with that one forum but I was not generalizing to all atheists from that. Admittedly though, I was beginning to wonder if all atheists were arrogant until I came here. I have to say that there was not one humble atheist in the whole group. They all denigrated belief in God in one way or another, which to me is a way of saying they were better.

I have also been treated badly on Christian forums, but that is to be expected since I am a Baha’i. I finally started my own forum in that group so I could post to Christians in a neutral place, but for a long time, almost all of my posters have been atheists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Any person can be described with many labels: you’ve mentioned that the atheist who behaved badly toward you is also a “him,” the admin of a forum, and a non-Bahá’í. I’m sure there are other terms we could use to describe him if we knew more details.

But despite all the ways you could describe him, you focused on his atheism. You went from one person treating you badly to asking why “some atheists” treat people badly. The implication is that his bad behaviour is associated with his atheism in a way that it isn’t associated with his gender, his role on that forum, or his other characteristics.

Do you understand now how this can be taken badly?

I identified him as an atheist because that was relevant as to why he insulted me constantly and the OP would not have made any sense without that identification. Clearly, the reason he insulted me was because he is an atheist and I am a believer and he thinks atheists are intellectually superior to believers.He said on many occasions that belief is the lowest form of thinking humans are capable of.

No, I did not focus on his atheism because I did not imply that his bad behavior was because he did not believe in God. I only said that if atheists want to say they need no God for morality then some of them are not doing a very good job of demonstrating that.

No, it was his behavior on the forum that I objected to, not his atheism. It was his personality characteristics that caused him to behave as he did, not his atheism. Since most atheists do not behave as he did, we know it is his personality, not his atheism. There are some others who have been insulting and rude to me, and that is also because of their personalities, not because of their atheism. Lack of belief in God does not cause people to behave that way. Their personalities do.

Some Christians have been insulting and rude to me but it was not because of their beliefs, it was because of their personalities.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Good question. I am not quite sure. In the Baha’i Writings it says:

"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attain in the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)
Lights of Guidance (second part)

Clearly, the Messengers know more about God than they tell us, but I am not sure if they know the Essence of God. Even if they did know, they would do not tell us because we could never understand the Essence of God.

Moreover, there are many things that the Messengers know that they do not tell us, since we cannot understand all of it and we do not need to now it all. What we are allowed to know is reveled incrementally, as we need it and are able to understand it.

No, Attributes are the qualities of God.

Here are some of God’s Attributes that are unique to God: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, All-powerful, Everywhere-present, All-Wise, All-Knowing, Simple (one in essence), Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Immaterial.

Here are some of God’s Attributes that the Messengers reflect: Goodness, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Forgiving, Sovereign, Patient.

The Essence of God is God’s intrinsic nature, as well as where God resides, how God functions, what God does and how God does it, stuff like that.

We know God’s Attributes because the Messenger reflects God’s attributes in His Person and the Messenger reveals God’s Attributes in His Writings.

I have to say that you are extremely sharp.

As I always say, God either exists or not. Whether God exists or not has nothing to do with what we believe or disbelieve. Whether God exists or not has nothing to do with the evidence either, because God could conceivably exist and provide no evidence of His existence. God does provide evidence in the Messengers, but even if He did not, God could still exist.

Evidence is simply what people want in order believe in God, and this is a reasonable expectation. I do not believe in pink unicorns because there is no evidence that they exist. But for people to say there is no evidence that God exists is ridiculous. Everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is more than adequate evidence. The fact that nonbelievers do not consider Messengers as evidence is something I don’t understand. What better kind of evidence could God provide but a perfect Manifestation of Himself?

The Attributes of God are not hidden, they are reflected or revealed by the Messenger. That does not mean we can understand all of them though. For example, we cannot understand what it means to be omnipresent or omnipotent. All we have are human words, but words fall short in describing an ineffable God.

God is defined by His Attributes. We do not need to know God’s Essence. It is far beyond our understanding.

The Attributes and the Essence of God are entirely separate. Nobody can know the Essence of God so nobody can describe the Essence of God. We can only know and describe the Attributes of God because the Messenger reflects and reveals those Attributes. Those Attributes are unchanging and are consistent across revelations from God, so all the Messengers reflect and reveal the same Attributes of God. So, Jesus and Moses reflected and revealed the same Attributes of God as did Muhammad and Baha’u’llah.

So you are correct, the Attributes of God are shared by many God religions.

There is only One God that revealed all the religions, and that God has the same Attributes and the same Essence. The Attributes and Essence of God never change. The only thing that changes with every new religion is the Will of God, some of which is different in every new age. The Will of God is revealed by the Messenger and whatever the Messenger reveals is identical to the Will of God. The Will of God can be thought of as what God wants us to do, the teachings and laws of the religion.

Excellent. No, God’s existence is not dependent upon beliefs.

I am so glad someone finally figured this out.

God either exists or not.

Messengers were either sent by God or not.

What people believe or disbelieve has nothing to do with it.

Lol my sis woke me 12am. Great answers; thank you. I'll get back to comment when Im fully awake

 

[Trailblazer]

In spite of a mildly rocky start, (op) I think you have demonstrated a strong empathy and kindness for others.

What more can one human ask of another human?

Your comment stood out the most, to me, just above: "he is just cold and insensitive. "

And I am sad you had to deal with someone like that-- too many people find it easy to be both, in faceless media like on-line forums.

Thanks Bob. I had thought I had some kind of relationship with him but I guess that was just one-sided. I tried so hard, which is why it hurts so much to be rejected like this. But I will get over it with the help of all you kind atheists on this forum. I tend to gravitate more towards men than women, since I was closer to my dad than my mom, and it seems like a lot of atheist posters are men. My dad was an atheist. Then there are the agnostic posters, I like them too.

The only close Baha’i friend I have is Truthseeker9 (Duane). On my forum which is pretty inactive right now, I have three atheists posting who are my friends. I do not post much to Christians because normally they just want to prove they are right and I am wrong. I have had enough of those debates to last a lifetime.

I know a fair number of atheists who were repeatedly abused by religion and the people who think it's their Life Goal to force it upon everyone, and they have become cynical about religion in general.

I find that I, too, fall into that trap for much the same reasons-- emotional and sometimes physical abuse at the hands of "God's Personal Messengers".

I think that might be true for the bulk of atheists in the United States, but this atheist forum owner is an exception, because he never bought off on religion and so he was never hurt. I have a poster on my forum who was hurt so badly by Christianity for 35 years that it makes me want to cry. He was also hurt by God and that makes me want to cry even more, because I can identify. I almost lost him about a week ago because he got angry at me, since he cannot seem to disassociate Baha’i from Christianity, but he finally realized that he is going to get more empathy from me than from the hard core atheists on the adjacent forum I left. That atheist forum owner knows where I am at if he wants to talk to me. I wrote him several long private messages so the ball is in his court. It will probably stay there though because he is about as stubborn as me.

You and others, help me to recognize when I do that, and I try to remember to not be that way.

Bottom line: You can always Kill Them With Kindness. right?

You kind of seem like a new man since I met you Bob, and that was only about three months ago. But maybe that was just my initiation ceremony, not the real you. I sensed you were not mean, just hurt by God. That is not a difficult task since God can be pretty aloof.

Yes, it is always best to be kind, except in cases where that would lead someone very devious to take advantage, because they think you are a sap. I have a new tenant like that, so I had to get more businesslike really fast.

I tried to be kind to that atheist forum owner but it did not work. Of course it would help if he would read my private messages. He told my husband he was too mad at me to read them, so maybe he does have feelings after all.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

The first video is not truth. It is lies about the Baha'i Faith, an effort to discredit and defame it, hoping that the unsuspecting viewer will not know the difference. They would not know the difference if they did not know what the Baha'i Faith was really all about; instead, they would believe the video's lies.

Accurate information about the Baha'i Faith does not come from Muslims or Christians, for obvious logical reasons. Would you go to a Christian to find out what Islam is all about? No, because Christians believe Islam is a false religion.
The second video you posted is accurate, as far as I can tell.

The following video is accurate information about the Baha'i Faith

What you might call an attempt to discredit, I call an accurate description. Fortunately, both video supply historical and factual evidence to support their claims. You do not, and simply assert denial, without providing either. I do not go to Clan or White Supremacist sites to get an unbiased objective interpretation of their philosophies. Circular reasoning firstly comes to mind. My sources are independent and objective, based only on facts and evidence, not gap-filled with elements of faith and belief. MANY independent sources. Any human being claiming divinity, or divinity through succession, would instantly require evidence to support that claim. There are no demigods, or any messengers for a God(s). Why would a God need a messenger in the first place? There is no explicit or implicit direct connection between any human being on the planet and a God. These are only myths, that people want to believe are true(cognitive dissonance). Just because someone believes they are somehow connected to a God, don't make it so. And, by succession is even more ludicrous.This is why the scientific method of inquiry is such an invaluable tool, for dismissing these sorts of extraordinary claims, outright. Faith requires Zero evidence, and faith in any belief requires even less.

Oasis, MercyCorp, Child Empowerment International, CloudHead, The Dhaka Project, The Hunger Project, Invisible Children, Shared Interest, International Rescue Committee, etc., 50 nonprofits making a world of difference - Matador Network , are just a few of the secular, non-profit, non-religious organizations trying to make a difference in the world. Why not join or contribute to them? All these organizations promise peace, education, and the desire to bring people together. Why must obedience to a divine belief be part of your motivation? Altruism is a human attribute, not a divine attribute

It is your right to believe in anything you want. But is not your right to create your own logic to justify it. Can you prove it, or do you just believe it?

 

[oldbadger]

................I guess I just had a bad experience with that one forum but I was not generalizing to all atheists from that. Admittedly though, I was beginning to wonder if all atheists were arrogant until I came here.

It's hard to perceive what the subject matter of your conversation was, without reading such posts.
If you were evangelising in some way to them then they may well have been responding? Where I live street evangelisers can get heckled, but no worse than politicals etc.

I have to say that there was not one humble atheist in the whole group. They all denigrated belief in God in one way or another, which to me is a way of saying they were better.

Of course they did...... they don't believe in any Gods. They could well have as much humility as the average Bahai, and, you know, many folks might think that Bahai is not so humble either............. I have received more serious insults from Bahais than anybody else here, been called 'Demoniser' and suchlike.

I have also been treated badly on Christian forums, but that is to be expected since I am a Baha’i. I finally started my own forum in that group so I could post to Christians in a neutral place, but for a long time, almost all of my posters have been atheists.

I know of forums for Christians where you would be insulted, verbally abused, etc to a level so bad that it's actually hard to believe unless you have been there, seen all that. This very week on one forum a Socialist-Atheist posted to say that a rest was needed and that they were wandering off for a time, and other members including site bosses replied with insults and 'get lost don't come back' messages.

Why do I visit it? It sets my feet on the ground about who is out there besides the decent folks.

 

[Trailblazer]

What you might call an attempt to discredit, I call an accurate description. Fortunately, both video supply historical and factual evidence to support their claims.

How do you know it is an accurate description? Have you read other information? Have you read the Baha'i information? They are hoping people like you who are into facts will consider it factual.

Some of it might be factual but what these people do is present just enough truth to fool people into thinking it is ALL true... Those are called half truths. Like saying the Baha'is do not do any humanitarian work, lol. Baha'is do a lot of humanitarian work. The donations to Huqúqu'lláh partly goes to used to equalize wealth across different parts of the world. But since this is something only a Baha'i would know, the people who make these videos which are an attempt to discredit the Baha'i Faith, are hoping the unsuspecting viewer won't look into it any more and just believe their video.

As for the history of the Baha'i Faith, that is a Pandora's Box since it was so tumultuous, so people like this take full advantage in their smear campaign. There is no reason to believe that their version of the history is more accurate than the Baha'i version, and every reason to think otherwise. WHY do you think they make these videos anyway, because they were bored one day? No, it is a deliberate attempt to discredit the Baha'i Faith because they see us as their competition. There is no way such "information" can be objective. However, there is no reason why the Baha'is would present inaccurate information about their own religion, and they know more about it than anyone else.

Anyhow, I will get back to the rest of your post later. I have to go to work now.