How about, "no messenger of God at all"? Since there is no evidence for the existence of a Messenger of God, all other claims are irrelevant. Or did you mean some human claiming to be the Messenger of God? In that case, there probably is evidence similar to the claim of being Napoleon.
That’s what I said. No messenger of God at all is one of the possibilities, which would mean that those who claimed to be Messengers of God were 2) false messengers.
But there is plenty of evidence for 1) true Messenger of God. Whether it is evidence or not all depends upon how you view that evidence. If you are closed to the idea that God could use a Messenger then you are not even considering what the evidence is or what it means. To say that the evidence for Baha’u’llah claiming to be a Messenger of God is similar to the claim of being Napoleon demonstrates that you have no idea what the evidence is.
So, there is no way we can know if a God truly exists.
That is true. Nobody can know in the sense of having objective proof.
There is no way we can understand how a Messenger can know he has received a message from a God.
That is true too, but we do not expect to understand it, since we know it is beyond human understanding how He knew. Moreover, we do not need to understand it in order to believe it occurred.
You believe that God exists, in spite of the absence of any objective evidence. There is no verifiable evidence, except what is enough to convince yourself.
As I said before, I do not expect to have objective evidence of an immaterial God since that is impossible. The evidence for me is the Messenger of God who represents God. To me that is proof that God exists.
You have no evidence to support the claim that the Messenger is a higher human being.
As I said before, there is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that Baha’u’llah was not just an ordinary man. No ordinary man has done or can do do what He did. The same applies to Jesus and the other Messengers.
Your religion is both different and a composite of most religions. Once Baha'i faith has brought religious unity to the world, it is its man-made covenants that will prevent abuse of power. With that much certainty, where do I sign up?
It is different and similar, but it is not a composite because it only shares the spiritual verities of the other religions, not anything else they teach.
The Covenant of Baha’u’llah was not man-made, because it was revealed by Baha’u’llah, who was a Manifestation of God. It will prevent any sects branching off from the Baha’i Faith because anyone who breaks the Covenant no longer considered a Baha’i but is rather a Covenant-breaker.
What will present the abuse of power is the way the religion was set up by Baha’u’llah, as a democracy, with nobody in power or able to attain a position of power.
Science is not a system based on any belief, or any level of faith. Science is a method of inquiry based on our evolved ability to reason (inductive/deductive), using facts, pattern recognition, and data. Its purpose is to provide an explanation to all NATURAL phenomena with a high degree of certainty. These explanations should be observable, measureable, falsifiable, repeatable, logical or intuitive. Religious beliefs are the opposite of the scientific method of discovery. Name one natural phenomena that can be explained by any religious belief, that is relevant to a physical reality?
Religious beliefs are not the opposite of science; they simply have a different scope and purpose. The purpose of science is to explain natural phenomena but that is outside the scope of religion. Religious beliefs are very relevant to physical reality because humans are part of the physical reality and religious beliefs affect human behavior.
“All religions teach that we must do good, that we must be generous, sincere, truthful, law-abiding, and faithful; all this is reasonable, and logically the only way in which humanity can progress.” Paris Talks, p. 141
What exists outside of the physical reality (spiritual, unexplained, supernatural, immaterial, etc.), are all irrelevant. It is a self-serving cop-out to claim that religious beliefs lay outside of science, since no one knows what outside is (argument from ignorance). Religious beliefs used to be called, the "science for the ignorant".
I believe that what lies outside the physical reality is very relevant because I believe it exists and it is eternal whereas this physical reality if only temporal. The fact that nobody knows what is outside the physical realm does not mean there is nothing outside.
Tell me, what is the difference between "If you believe you are right, that others need to prove you are wrong", or "If you are wrong, it is up to others to prove you wrong"? Just another dishonest way to turn a phrase, and manipulate terminology. If you think that annexing your beliefs with science, will give it the perception of credibility, you are sadly mistaken.
I did not say you need to prove me wrong. I said if I am wrong there should be a way to prove it, at least some evidence that indicates I am wrong. Mind you, I would not claim to be right if I had no evidence of such.
The very last thing I am doing is annexing my beliefs with science. I said that they are “separate” domains of knowledge, not connected but both necessary for humanity to progress.
Are you now equating your faith movement to the Will of a God? Do you think that your movement is as unstoppable as a God? Many religious fanatics had that same view, especially when they were causing the death of millions of innocent people. How do you know that under your new world order, horrors won't be committed? These atrocities are still being committed today.
The Baha’i Faith is not a “faith movement.” What Baha’u’llah revealed is identical to the will of God so whatever He predicted is unstoppable because it represents the will of a God that is omnipotent.
The fallacy of hasty generalization is the most common fallacy that nonbelievers commit, because they compare the Baha’i Faith with other religions and even cults. But all that is irrelevant what other religions did or do because the Baha’i Faith stands on its own merit and it is a separate religion revealed in a separate age of history. What happened in the past will never recur.
I know the horrors won’t be committed because I know what my religion teaches, its laws, and how it is set up to function, which makes that impossible.
How do you know that life couldn't have happened without a God's intervention? You can't unless you are a God. If the Messenger told you that you are a God, would you think that you are?
I know it because Baha’u’llah revealed it and He spoke as a Representative of God; so it is just as good as if God said it. If a Messenger told me I was God I would say he has to be a fake because that is logically impossible and I do not believe things that are logically impossible.
Regardless of what religion you profess, we live in a world controlled primarily by human beings. Human being possess over 4000 personality traits. It is not in the human condition to be absolutely consistent about anything over time. Hence, we can be manipulated and controlled. Only a God is absolutely consistent over time, and unable to be controlled. So, excuse me if I don't simply take your word that power will not be abused. Or that your belief is psychologically devoid of human characteristics.
I never said that humans are not capable of being manipulated and controlled and they are also capable of manipulating and controlling other people. In fact, that has already been tried by those who broke with the Covenant of Baha’u’llah and tried to establish their own religions. But the Covenant is the greatest protection because anyone who breaks it is ostracized. In short, Baha’is can only operate within the “parameters” Baha’u’llah laid out in His Writings. That is how unity is maintained but it is not uniformity because diversity is encouraged.
You should not take my word for anything I say. Everything I say can be verified by reading the “authoritative writings” of the Baha’i Faith, which are what explains the intentions of the Baha’is. What other people might say are our intentions is not the intentions of Baha’u’llah because those can only be found in His Writings.
I think we are simply wasting each others time. What you choose to believe in is your business, not mine. But what you choose to say to me, becomes my business. Your arguments are not designed to find any logical solution or common ground. They seem to be designed only to simply go the distance, or be unresponsive. I'm afraid I'm only designed for the former. I feel nothing but sadness, that another perfectly good mind has been wasted. We're done here.
What I choose to post on a public forum is my business unless I am breaking a forum rule, but what people choose to read or respond to is their own business.
People post on forums for their own reasons. I am not looking for solutions because I am not trying to solve anything; I am just responding to exactly what I read in posts. I do look for common ground and sometimes I find it, sometimes not. Nothing is ever wasted as far as I am concerned because I have no goals and I never consider people a waste of time, even though time is in very short supply.
No need to respond just because I did. I understand your frustration but it is not mine. I just process things very differently than you do.
