Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

[shunyadragon]

I am not saying that science hasn't helped you! I am not saying that microevolution doesn't exist! However studying something (macroevolution) that doesn't exist,

Actually you are partially correct. Neither micro evolution nor macro evolution exist separately. There is simply the science of evolution. Micro evolution is simply descriptive observations of evolution on a small scale.

 

[Jenny Collins]

No, they were studying biology. You have never provided any evidence that there is a barrier to stop microevolution from proceeding into macroevolution.

Your failure to recognize that there is no evidence for macroevolution is your problem, not mine!

 

[Jenny Collins]

Actually you are partially correct. Neither micro evolution nor macro evolution exist separately. There is simply the science of evolution. Micro evolution is simply descriptive observations of evolution on a small scale.

Finally an evolutionist who acknowledges a point I make! They usually ignore everything I say and just plod on

 

[Thumper]

Your failure to recognize that there is no evidence for macroevolution is your problem, not mine!

Not what I said. You are apparently assuming a distinction between microevolution and macroevolution that does not exist. So, where's your evidence and peer paper on this subject. References, please.

 

[Sapiens]

"There are similarities between apes and humans and fish blow up so this shows evolution" There are similarities in all nature! Spiders have eyes, people have eyes! Parrots can talk, people can talk! Bananas share DNA with us! Pandas look similar in ways to raccoons! Platypus and ducks have bills! This is homologous structures and this does not prove evolution! It lends weight to the argument that there is a God that knows what he is doing and can use the same features in different animals!

And there are more dissimilarites of ape and human than similarities! The experiments of teaching sign language to apes has actually shown how vast a gulf there is between ape and human! A couple apes can use signs to say things like "dirty toilet devil" (Koko said this) and name a cat "All Ball" meanwhile children can learn several languages, if exposed to them from early on!

The facts:

• Humans are apes.
• The difference between humans and chimps is only about 250 mutations and the fusion that resulted in Chromosome Two.
• Arachnid eyes and human eyes are completely different analogous structures.
• Human speech and parrot mimicking are not the same thing.
• Clearly humans and bananas had a common ancestor way, way back.
• Bears and raccoons are closely related mammals, The question for pandas was, "are pandas more closely related to bears or raccoons or do they belong in their own group?" Divergent expert opinions were held based on osteology, behavior and diet. Vincent Sarich, at UC Berkeley, developed immunological analysis techniques that shows that Giant Panda is, in cladistic terms, a bear; while the lesser panda is neither a bear nor a raccoon but belongs in its own group because it split off before the raccoons and bears diverged.

 

[Jenny Collins]

"And I always make sure to point out that when people on the internet make claims as you just did, ... that caution is is order! You could be making stuff up to add weight to your argument! I am not claiming you are, it is just that there is no proof! The same as the people here who claim to be scientists! ... I just don't know that for a fact!" ~ Jenny Collins

Exactly! My claims of artistic ability cannot be proven, so caution is in order! But they can't be belittled either! Because you don't know! I was actually waiting for someone to come along and point that out, that I had said that, because I thought of it at the time! However if you read what I wrote, I acknowledged that claims made on this forum may very well be true! Huge difference than someone who belittles my claim of being a good artist! The picture I use may not even be mine! It is but you don't know that! It would be wrong of you to scoff at the idea that it is mine! You don't know! If you look at my profile it says I am 41! I mistakenly put that in, I am 50! It is a current pic but some claim I am younger than I am, because it looks younger than I look in person! What meets the eye, may or may not be true! I think you can agree that my bringing up being an artist does not make a difference in this debate! I clearly am not making claims that I am a scientist, and we are discussing evolution! I just mentioned being good at art to make a point that someone can be good at something with or without training! That example still fits, whether I use it about myself or just say: "Someone can be a good artist and not go to school for it"

 

[Jenny Collins]

The facts:

• Humans are apes.
• The difference between humans and chimps is only about 250 mutations and the fusion that resulted in Chromosome Two.
• Arachnid eyes and human eyes are completely different analogous structures.
• Human speech and parrot mimicking are not the same thing.
• Clearly humans and bananas had a common ancestor way, way back.mBears and raccoons are closely related mammals, The question for pandas was, "are pandas more closely related to bears or raccoons or do they belong in their own group?" Divergent expert opinions were held based on osteology, behavior and diet. Vincent Sarich, at UC Berkeley, developed immunological analysis techniques that shows that Giant Panda is, in cladistic terms, a bear; while the lesser panda is neither a bear nor a raccoon but belongs in its own group because it split off before the raccoons and bears diverged.

You say "Humans are apes" Then why do evolutionists scoff when creationists say: "We didn't descend from apes" Evolutionists say: "We never claimed to have descended from apes" Well you are contradicting that!

Of course I know that spider eyes are not exactly the same as ours! Humans don't have more than two eyes on stalks! There are also internal differences! You continually miss my points! There are some things in nature that are repeated in various species! They are not exactly the same!

 

[Jenny Collins]

The facts:

• Humans are apes.
• The difference between humans and chimps is only about 250 mutations and the fusion that resulted in Chromosome Two.
• Arachnid eyes and human eyes are completely different analogous structures.
• Human speech and parrot mimicking are not the same thing.
• Clearly humans and bananas had a common ancestor way, way back.mBears and raccoons are closely related mammals, The question for pandas was, "are pandas more closely related to bears or raccoons or do they belong in their own group?" Divergent expert opinions were held based on osteology, behavior and diet. Vincent Sarich, at UC Berkeley, developed immunological analysis techniques that shows that Giant Panda is, in cladistic terms, a bear; while the lesser panda is neither a bear nor a raccoon but belongs in its own group because it split off before the raccoons and bears diverged.

Just so you know, parrots are not only mimicking people! They recognize what some of the words mean

 

[Jenny Collins]

The facts:

• Humans are apes.
• The difference between humans and chimps is only about 250 mutations and the fusion that resulted in Chromosome Two.
• Arachnid eyes and human eyes are completely different analogous structures.
• Human speech and parrot mimicking are not the same thing.
• Clearly humans and bananas had a common ancestor way, way back.mBears and raccoons are closely related mammals, The question for pandas was, "are pandas more closely related to bears or raccoons or do they belong in their own group?" Divergent expert opinions were held based on osteology, behavior and diet. Vincent Sarich, at UC Berkeley, developed immunological analysis techniques that shows that Giant Panda is, in cladistic terms, a bear; while the lesser panda is neither a bear nor a raccoon but belongs in its own group because it split off before the raccoons and bears diverged.

Why are you telling me things about pandas which I already know? I read the article in a National Geographic a couple of decades ago, at a time that you may have been in diapers! I could be wrong about your age of course!

That is what piqued my interest! I read about the chromosome similarities to bears, than I called a professor at a local college who told me "Pandas are raccoons" Shows how even so-called experts get it wrong or aren't up to date! And yes, I know what Red Panda are! Thank you so much for over explaining things to me and straying away from the point we are talking about!

As far as your sarcastic remarks about bananas and us being relatives, sarcasm is a crutch for you! Just as indirect, long sentences, that people can't understand, big words, and French sayings! If you can't clearly explain something, you opt for the complicated expression, hoping to befuddle people! They can't refute what you say, if they don't understand it! But anyway, I guess since you admit in a sarcastic way that bananas are not human relatives, you have to admit that apes may not be our relatives just because they share DNA

 

[Sapiens]

Is H

FIrst of all you quote Dawkins, now you quote Hamlet! Are you always so easily impressed with mere human beings or fictional human beings? As a child did you say: "My dad says" or "my dad told me"? Hamlet cannot tell me that I protest too much! You are hijacking words from a play, or whatever and applying them to me! You have very naive thinking too! If you were accused of a crime that you didn't commit, would you protest a lot? There is no evidence that because someone denies something loudly or a lot, that it must be they are doing it to cover for themselves! You have very irrational, simple minded ideas!

I guess it to much to expect that someone who thinks that unaccredited institutions provide quality education understands the meaning of the quote. Oh well ...

Did they teach you in your Ivy League school to argue so simply!

Who said I went to an Ivy League school?

Telling people they must be wrong because they protest strongly, and because Hamlet said those words? For once I would like to see you present an idea of your own, rather than relying so heavily on the quotes, ideas and opinions of others! If you are some rock star, ivy league scientist, isn't it kind of loserish to hang out on a site like this, bickering with people?

Actually I hang here to stay in practice, being heavily involved in assuring that creationist claptrap is kept out of our schools. I you want to put yourself down by pretending that it is some sort of intellectual slumming feel free ... but understand that is all on you. Why someone would put themselves and everyone else here down is beyond me.

Of course, I am here too, but I am recovering from surgery and am bored! Also I am not some rock star who could use my talents to find some cure for disease or whatever!

You might be amazed at what you might do, I hope you heal quickly and well.

 

[Jenny Collins]

Please document these 'Respected scientists.' Out of tens of thousands of scientists I know of less than ten who reject evolution and they are also evangelical Christians. At best I read of only one who claims not to be religious. There are a few 'engineers,' who are not scientists who are evangelical Christians rejecting evolution.

It is not a coincidence that 99%+ of all those who reject evolution do so from an fundamentalist Christian or Islamic perspective.

I don't have an enyclopedic mind that can rattle off names of scientists who reject evolution! I have read of many, and in Vyskocil's case, he was atheist when he began doubting! He did become religious later! But he didn't begin doubting it after becoming religious! You know, you can always research all of the scientists who disbelieve evolution on your own! If I were to find the names of some, I would have to research it, which you have the capability of doing yourself

 

[Jenny Collins]

I guess it to much to expect that someone who thinks that unaccredited institutions provide quality education understands the meaning of the quote. Oh well ...
Who said I went to an Ivy League school?
Actually I hang here to stay in practice, being heavily involved in assuring that creationist claptrap is kept out of our schools. I you want to put yourself down by pretending that it is some sort of intellectual slumming feel free ... but understand that is all on you. Why someone would put themselves and everyone else here down is beyond me.

You might be amazed at what you might do, I hope you heal quickly and well.

Colleges ARE accredited! For someone so smart you don't know a lot!

 

[Darkstorn]

Exactly! My claims of artistic ability cannot be proven, so caution is in order!

Your claims about you knowing what you're talking about haven't been proven either, so caution is in order, right?

Colleges ARE accredited! For someone so smart you don't know a lot!

For someone so... "experienced" you'd think your mommy would have taught you some manners and that you would have taken some lessons from your experiences of dealing with other humans. You are quickly approaching crazy lady territory.

 

[Jenny Collins]

I guess it to much to expect that someone who thinks that unaccredited institutions provide quality education understands the meaning of the quote. Oh well ...
Who said I went to an Ivy League school?
Actually I hang here to stay in practice, being heavily involved in assuring that creationist claptrap is kept out of our schools. I you want to put yourself down by pretending that it is some sort of intellectual slumming feel free ... but understand that is all on you. Why someone would put themselves and everyone else here down is beyond me.

You might be amazed at what you might do, I hope you heal quickly and well.

You hang around here because it makes you feel superior! Since you haven't said anything of substance to me, just things Like "Horse puckey" and the French term, etc, you don't have any noble goal of educating anyone

 

[Sapiens]

Just so you know, parrots are not only mimicking people! They recognize what some of the words mean

I know, I have an African Gray and a pair of Blue and Gold Macaws. The Gray has a huge vocabulary and responds in fairly complex situations, but he is not capable of creating new communications, only repeating and responding to phrases that he has been previously exposed to. It is a bit more than simple mimicry but falls far short of being a creative process.

Why are you telling me things about pandas which I already know? I read the article in a National Geographic a couple of decades ago, at a time that you may have been in diapers! I could be wrong about your age of course!

Yes, you are wrong about many things.

That is what piqued my interest! I read about the chromosome similarities to bears, than I called a professor at a local college who told me "Pandas are raccoons" Shows how even so-called experts get it wrong or aren't up to date! And yes, I know what Red Panda are! Thank you so much for over explaining things to me and straying away from the point we are talking about!

There's nothing worse than someone who was once an expert, fails to keep up with a field they hold forth on, and yet pretends to still have mastery of it. If this incident occurred after 1976 then your local faculty member was badly in the wrong.

As far as your sarcastic remarks about bananas and us being relatives, sarcasm is a crutch for you!

That was no sarcasm ... that was fact.[/quote]Nothing sarcastic about it. I said, "Clearly humans and bananas had a common ancestor way, way back." and I stand by that statement.

Just as indirect, long sentences, that people can't understand, big words, and French sayings! If you can't clearly explain something, you opt for the complicated expression, hoping to befuddle people!

If you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen.

They can't refute what you say, if they don't understand it! But anyway, I guess since you admit in a sarcastic way that bananas are not human relatives, you have to admit that apes may not be our relatives just because they share DNA

I recall no such statement on my part. Bananas share a common ancestor with people as do all other living things on Earth.

 

[Jenny Collins]

Because I would never go to an auto mechanic to fix my plumbing.

From you specifically, no, as I have read the studies and have been exposed to the evidence and by people with actual backgrounds in the relevant fields of science that lend evidence to support the theory of evolution.

I actually do have a footing towards having credentials, and am close to having more than just a footing. Things such as pro-social behaviors in social animals, similarities in behaviors between humans and chimpanzees, and even non-verbal signals found throughout the animal kingdom (such as an animal, or even reptile or fish, puffing up and making themselves appear larger to look more threatening and intimidating) bring up observations and questions that are answered and predicted by the theory of evolution.

There is no such thing as an "evolution believer." No more than there is a "believer in mental illness" or a "germ believer" or "gravity believer."

You haven't been doing this.

Dawkin's own personal opinions reflect his own personal opinions, not the findings or functionings of science.

That is not how science works. There is a "side" for a flat Earth, but the Earth is not flat and will not flatten itself because people believe it is, nor will the facts and evidence ever support such a position. Science works by making predictions, recording systematic observations, replicating experiments and results (or finding different results), and falsifiability of a hypothesis and theory is a must. Evolution can be proven wrong, but what we learn only adds to support evolution. About the only way evolution is ever going to be proven wrong is if we find fossils that are very geochronologically out of place and we discover a mechanism beyond random mutations that drive DNA replication.

You questioned whether I lied about being good at art! Of course, for all you know I am sharing someone else's work! But it is mine!

Actually you are partially correct. Neither micro evolution nor macro evolution exist separately. There is simply the science of evolution. Micro evolution is simply descriptive observations of evolution on a small scale.

You seem to be a more fair person than some of these others! If there was any chance that evolution might be true, I would be more open minded to listening to you than some of these other ones! You have someone like Sapiens who goes around quoting Hamlet, speaking in French, bragging about being friends with Dawkins, jumping around and not sticking to the point, changing subjects, etc! You have another one who says: "I have a footing in being credentialed and blowfish help prove evolution because they puff up and scare the enemy" Another who thinks that it is impossible for a lay person to know something that an "expert" doesn't!

 

[Darkstorn]

You seem to be a more fair person than some of these others! If there was any chance that evolution might be true, I would be more open minded to listening to you than some of these other ones!

"Some of these other ones!"

It is my assessment that it's YOU who is not being fair and giving people the benefit of the doubt. YOU go to insults way before anyone else has.

 

[Jenny Collins]

I know, I have an African Gray and a pair of Blue and Gold Macaws. The Gray has a huge vocabulary and responds in fairly complex situations, but he is not capable of creating new communications, only repeating and responding to phrases that he has been previously exposed to. It is a bit more than simple mimicry but falls far short of being a creative process.
Yes, you are wrong about many things.
There's nothing worse than someone who was once an expert, fails to keep up with a field they hold forth on, and yet pretends to still have mastery of it. If this incident occurred after 1976 then your local faculty member was badly in the wrong.
That was no sarcasm ... that was fact.

Nothing sarcastic about it. I said, "Clearly humans and bananas had a common ancestor way, way back." and I stand by that statement.
If you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen.
I recall no such statement on my part. Bananas share a common ancestor with people as do all other living things on Earth.[/QUOTE]
I go to a Harley Davidson establishment with an animal farm! Doc's Harley Davidson, google it! I am around the birds there, including macaws who sit on my shoulders and arms! One says cracker and is clearly just repeating a word he heard! Never did I claim that they can carry on conversations with people! I said they can recognize the meaning of some words! Dogs can too!

I also commented on Koko the gorilla to someone on here! It called someone or something "Dirty toilet devil" and named its cat All Ball! A far cry from the sophisticated vocabulary of humans! There is a huge gulf between humans and apes, and there are not 250 mutations between us, since there is no connection at all! And mutations are not building blocks, but are usually harmful! Even over long periods of time! I am not going to respond to you anymore or read what you write anymore, because this is too time consuming for me, I have been on here all day, and why should I respond to you, you are way too impressed with yourself! Every time someone rejects what you say it is because "they are intimidated by my intellect" or "they feel inferior" when in reality, they get annoyed by hot air, they may have an errand to run, etc, etc! It is all about your greatness in relation to them! I know you will reply, but it will be talking to the hand!

 

[Sapiens]

Colleges ARE accredited! For someone so smart you don't know a lot!

Not all colleges are. Did you not reply to @Polymath257's unaccredited school remark:

"Degree mills"? Scoffing, pure and simple! Sweeping generalization! People can go to those schools and do just fine!

 

[Darkstorn]

I am not going to respond to you anymore or read what you write anymore, because this is too time consuming for me, I have been on here all day, and why should I respond to you, you are way too impressed with yourself! Every time someone rejects what you say it is because "they are intimidated by my intellect" or "they feel inferior" when in reality, they get annoyed by hot air, they may have an errand to run, etc, etc! It is all about your greatness in relation to them! I know you will reply, but it will be talking to the hand!

I find this kind of childish behavior close to being destructive, rather than constructive, to a supposedly fair debate between supposed adults...