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Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
All non-credible sources from the Jehovah's Witness website.

Do you get everything you think from one place?

Why not talk about GMO crops and how illnesses have increased because of this biological tampering?
Please provide evidence of this, please.

We have enough food to feed the world...
... Thanks to science, pesticides and GMO crops.

....what we don't have is the political or financial will to do it. Someone mentioned today that if the money spent bombing Syria had been spent on medicine and food for the refugees, it might have saved lives instead of taking more.
And if my aunt had three wheels she would be a tricycle.

The goals for biological research might seem noble until you actually find out what motivates a lot of them. Especially is this seen in medical science. Each year we see enormous amounts of money ploughed into "research"...a seemingly endless search for cures that never come. Cancer and heart disease continue to take countless thousands of lives every year.
Are you honestly suggesting that mortality rates from cancer AREN'T improving?

Drugs are developed all the time to "treat" these illnesses, but there are no "cures", despite all attempts to find them.
Sure, if you ignore all the diseases we HAVE already cured and only focus on the ones we haven't cured yet.

I believe that biology has, to a large extent, been hijacked by greed. "Treatments" assure the drug companies of a continuous stream of customers for the rest of their miserable lives. "Cures" will never be allowed to surface because there is no profit in curing any of them.
You are seriously alleging a vast, global conspiracy to allow people to die from preventable diseases for no reason other than wealth? Are you under the misapprehension that billionaires and scientists and their families are NOT dying of cancer at the same rate as everyone else?

What about all those "breakthroughs" we hear about, that will take at least 10 years to get to market? Yet 10 years on, we never hear about them again.
Can you give an example?

We are no further forward than we were decades ago. Chemotherapy, radiation and surgery are our only medical options for cancer....yet all three make cancer worse.
Oh dear. Now you're really going off the deep end.

Each cost ridiculous amounts of money and yet very few people can claim a complete cure.....the cancer almost always seems to return with a vengeance.
Because, as you have already said, we don't have a cure yet. Are you under the impression that we shouldn't bother TREATING disease to prevent people dying earlier?

It isn't science that is the problem...it is evil men's use of science that creates the current chaos we see in the world today.
Actually, a bigger problem is people spreading bigotry and ignorance about science and alleging vast conspiracies that spread mistrust about science just because they are paranoid and insecure and overly protective of their self-serving beliefs, because those beliefs are more important to them them than actual facts, and if they're willing to let their children die of blood loss rather than compromise them, you can be damn sure they'd be happy let the rest of the world suffer for them too.

Each generation is weaker than the last...morally, physically and spiritually.....the biological gene pool has become a virtual cess pool. :(
Demonstrably wrong. People are stronger, fitter, more intelligent and are living longer than they have at any point in human history.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Here are some reasons why the Israelites maintained a better measure of health than other nations.....

(1) The diet of the Hebrews did not normally include a great deal of meat, but when a family wanted to slaughter a domestic animal for meat, they took the animal to the sanctuary. (Le 17:3-5; De 12:20-27) They ate the meat after the priest offered some of it on the altar and received his portion. Some communion sacrifices were to be eaten on the same day. Others could not be eaten after the second day, but the flesh was to be burned with fire. Considering Palestine’s warm climate and the lack of refrigeration, these requirements safeguarded the Israelites against febrile illnesses that can result from toxins that are produced when certain organisms multiply rapidly on meat that is not kept under refrigeration, such as Staphylococcus aureus and Salmonella.

(2) The flesh of certain prohibited animals, such as pigs, hares, carrion-eating animals and birds, rodents, and certain water animals and fish, is known to be a possible contributory factor in various diseases that are often accompanied by fever. (Le 11:1-31)

(3) The sanitary regulations helped safeguard the cooking utensils and also the drinking-water supply from contamination, a source of typhoid and other febrile diseases. (Le 11:32-38)

(4) Anyone either touching the body of an animal that died of itself or eating some of it had to cleanse himself, thus safeguarding against the spread of organisms identified with certain febrile diseases. (Le 11:39, 40)

(5) The laws commanding the covering of fecal waste by each individual, also the covering of blood with dust, protected against febrile diseases such as hepatitis. (Le 17:13; De 23:12, 13)

(6) The moral laws would practically eliminate all sexually transmitted disease, which disease can affect all organs of the body and is frequently accompanied by fever. (Le 18:20, 22, 23)

(7) The quarantine laws worked to prevent the spread of infectious diseases.—Le 13; Nu 19:11, 12, 16; 31:19.

The laws that God gave them kept them relatively healthy. No humans had knowledge of such things back then.....these rules could only have come from a source that had such knowledge. Why not the Creator?

Where did you get the idea that the ancient Israelites were healthier than their neighbors, or that if they were, it was due to diet? Do we have actuarial statistics or medical records?

And what is so special about those dietary laws if the people living around them with other diets managed to make it through antiquity

Why not talk about GMO crops and how illnesses have increased because of this biological tampering? Biology might be used to improve resistance to disease in the crop, but the use of herbicides and pesticides has been slowly poisoning us for decades. Chemical waste contaminates our water supplies and chemical pollution ruins the very air we breathe....all products of science.

We have enough food to feed the world.....what we don't have is the political or financial will to do it. Someone mentioned today that if the money spent bombing Syria had been spent on medicine and food for the refugees, it might have saved lives instead of taking more.

Now you're into business an politics. The theory of evolution is not less correct because it can be used to cause problems. It's just another illustration of its potency. Creationism hasn't led to any scientific discoveries that could be put to good or ill because it's sterile.

Incidentally, these are also the ways that help us determine which idea is right and which wrong. The inability to predict or modify nature is characteristic of wrong ideas about it. Isn't that exactly what you'd expect if creationism was wrong - that no useful ideas flow from the thought?

And isn't mans ability to modify his biological milieu the evidence of the opposite?

Each generation is weaker than the last...morally, physically and spiritually.....the biological gene pool has become a virtual cess pool. :(

This is one of many areas where Christianity and secular humanism part ways. Christianity depicts man in the most derogatory of terms, whereas humanism celebrates his spirit, achievements, and potential.

I'm proud and grateful to be human.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Jesus' opinion is not mine, and has no authority with me.

Just as your opinion has no authority with him I think. Whose authority is greater I wonder? :shrug:

Yes, I have chosen a path, and am very satisfied with it. I hope that yours has satisfied you at least half as much as mine has satisfied me.

I can honestly say that I have enjoyed my choice more than you can possibly imagine. Having reached the age I am with a future is more satisfying than only living to pass on genes to the next generations who will forget that I even existed. Human life has more value than that or else Christ would not have come to offer a ransom for us.

You might not like or want what the Creator is offering, but I think its wonderful. My future is not in the hands of corrupt humans who have deified themselves and trampled upon the free will of others. They have never learned from the lessons of history and are therefore doomed to repeat them.

I will take 'the road less traveled'. :D
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
All non-credible sources from the Jehovah's Witness website.

Do you get everything you think from one place?

Its a place I trust because they are seasoned researchers who glean their knowledge from a wide variety of sources. I am also capable of researching things for myself, which I often do. You asked us to "defend what you believe to be true about biology?" yet when we do, its not a credible source to you. It is to us, just as yours are credible to you.
But your sources are as biased as you think ours are.
128fs318181.gif
Who said science must be right about everything?

Deeje said:
Why not talk about GMO crops and how illnesses have increased because of this biological tampering?
Please provide evidence of this, please.

10 Scientific Studies Proving GMOs Can Be Harmful To Human Health

http://www.greenpeace.org/australia/PageFiles/434214/GM_Fact Sheet_Health_ and_Env_Impacts.pdf

Deeje said:
We have enough food to feed the world...
... Thanks to science, pesticides and GMO crops.

No actually, we have enough to feed the world in spite of them. These GMO crops don't kill you outright......they bite hard further down the line, more than likely affecting the generations to come.
It has been proven that ancient agricultural methods without the need for artificial chemical fertilizers and herbicides make for healthier food.

Mineral deficiency is high on the list of why there is so much illness. Minerals used to come from the soil, alive with microorganisms and from uncontaminated water supplies.
Now foods are grown in an artificial way and much of the goodness is lost due to farming methods, polluted water supplies and extended cold storage of produce. Nothing we eat is fresh unless we grow it ourselves.

'You are what you eat' is a well known phrase and even Hippocrates said "let food be thy medicine, and medicine be they food". Tampering with what was designed to keep us healthy and growing GMO crops in mineral deficient soil is threatening the very stuff of life. We are presently paying the price for messing with that. How many truly healthy people do you know? In case you hadn't noticed, ill health is a thriving and very lucrative industry.

Are you honestly suggesting that mortality rates from cancer AREN'T improving?

I am suggesting that lightening up on the amount of chemotherapy given, might be what is seen, rather than mortality rates improving from the administration of chemotherapy itself. It is toxic and many deaths occur because of it. People die from the treatment before they die from the cancer. Their last days are spent suffering needlessly from a toxic treatment.

Nineteen NHS trusts to review chemotherapy over high death rates | Daily Mail Online

Sure, if you ignore all the diseases we HAVE already cured and only focus on the ones we haven't cured yet.

Since cancer and heart disease are the #1 killers in western nations, perhaps its time to look at what causes these, rather than administering toxic chemicals to someone who is already sick? And with heart patients, shutting the door when the horse has already bolted is a little late.

"According to the National Institutes of Health, obesity and overweight together are the second leading cause of preventable death in the United States, close behind tobacco use (3). An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic (57).

Obesity: Facts, Figures, Guidelines

wvdhhr.org/bph/oehp/obesity/mortality.htm"
causesofdeath.jpg



It seems as if the government likes to ban things that are not dangerous to health, such as medicinal cannabis, and give the green light to all the things that make us sicker. Oh, but we have a pill for that.
121fs725372.gif
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You are seriously alleging a vast, global conspiracy to allow people to die from preventable diseases for no reason other than wealth? Are you under the misapprehension that billionaires and scientists and their families are NOT dying of cancer at the same rate as everyone else?

The Bible speaks about a vast global conspiracy that is based on deception, deluding people into a false sense of security. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
If all those billionaires and scientists were to opt for alternative therapies, that would be an admission, now wouldn't it?

I have seen people with cancer who were told to go home and die. They sought out alternative treatments even at that late stage and recovered....never to have the cancer return.

If I was diagnosed with cancer tomorrow, I would not touch the orthodox methods of treatment. I would try proven alternative methods that work with the body's immune system, not against it. And even if I died, I would not spend what little time I had left with my head in a bucket. My last days would be spent with my family, dealing with my pain in other, more natural ways.

Can you give an example?

7 Recent Discoveries That Could Revolutionize Medicine

Check out these breakthroughs and tell me when we might see all of them come to fruition, and how many will still be 'in the pipeline' another 10 years from now.

Oh dear. Now you're really going off the deep end.

Am I? Or are you just ignorant of the facts?

7 Recent Discoveries That Could Revolutionize Medicine

"The medical research community has uncovered a worrying trend: why are large numbers of medical researchers apparently misrepresenting their findings?

In a commentary published in journal Nature in 2012, scientists from biotech company Amgen found that findings in 90 per cent of the important cancer papers published in significant medical journals could not be replicated, even with the help of original scientists....

The reasons why some scientists might engage in research misconduct remain unclear but it's likely that multiple factors are at play.

With scientists constantly having to compete for precious research grants, the pressure to come up with successful findings is intense. To prosper, scientists need to publish as many papers as possible, ideally in well-respected journals.

Dr Fang told the New York Times in April 2012, that "the scramble to publish in high impact journals may be leading to more and more errors".

And the peer review process for identifying anomalies in research before it is published is clearly failing."


You might be putting your faith in the wrong people.

Because, as you have already said, we don't have a cure yet. Are you under the impression that we shouldn't bother TREATING disease to prevent people dying earlier?

Did I say that? Treating a disease with pharmaceuticals is an expensive and ongoing business. People sometimes have to sell their homes to pay for these 'treatments'.....and very often those treatments fail.

Altering eating habits and taking the right supplements can go a long way to bolstering the immune system so that diseases don't get started in the first place. The food we eat is mostly "processed" to death...literally. We need living food and the food industry cant sell living food because it goes rotten too quickly. The reason that they process food so much is to kill every living thing in it so that shelf-life can be maintained and the food still looks OK. Its dead, but you'd never know it and it tastes OK because it is full of artificial ingredients to make it sell.

Actually, a bigger problem is people spreading bigotry and ignorance about science and alleging vast conspiracies that spread mistrust about science just because they are paranoid and insecure and overly protective of their self-serving beliefs, because those beliefs are more important to them them than actual facts, and if they're willing to let their children die of blood loss rather than compromise them, you can be damn sure they'd be happy let the rest of the world suffer for them too.

:facepalm: Yep, just the sort of retort I expect from those blinded by science. My mistrust is well founded...perhaps you should do some research yourself?

Demonstrably wrong. People are stronger, fitter, more intelligent and are living longer than they have at any point in human history.

I can tell you now, that genetically inherited diseases are more widespread than ever. Some cancers, heart disease, neurological disorders and sexually selective diseases are on the increase. No one knows what is in their DNA when they produce children.....and as time goes on, the gene pool becomes more and more polluted. There is no way to prevent this.

The fact that people eat better than their forebears can explain the longer life, but its not always a 'good' longer life. How many of those elderly ones end up in nursing homes providing a nice profit for those who run them and a convenient abdication by their families who do not wish to be burdened by them?
Big pharma benefits too when you consider how many 'pills' these elderly people take three or four times a day.
money1.gif

Living longer is not necessarily living better. Quality of life counts more than quantity....so how many elderly people do we have with dementia these days?...and the number is increasing at an alarming rate.

"More intelligent"? One wonders, in what ways? Most of the young people I see seem to have their noses glued to a screen of some sort. They have forgotten how to communicate face to face and their hand writing skills are disappearing, being replaced with thumb texting and causing a whole new disease category. Heaven knows what damage is being done by the radiation emissions of all our electronic devices.
The recreational activities of our youth often include a lot of drugs and alcohol....hardly an intelligent passtime.

They often go to college for years, only to come out with no jobs to go to. You'll find them waiting on people who are fortunate enough to have a job and be able to afford to eat out. o_O
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bible speaks about a vast global conspiracy that is based on deception, deluding people into a false sense of security. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
If all those billionaires and scientists were to opt for alternative therapies, that would be an admission, now wouldn't it?

I have seen people with cancer who were told to go home and die. They sought out alternative treatments even at that late stage and recovered....never to have the cancer return.

If I was diagnosed with cancer tomorrow, I would not touch the orthodox methods of treatment. I would try proven alternative methods that work with the body's immune system, not against it. And even if I died, I would not spend what little time I had left with my head in a bucket. My last days would be spent with my family, dealing with my pain in other, more natural ways.



7 Recent Discoveries That Could Revolutionize Medicine

Check out these breakthroughs and tell me when we might see all of them come to fruition, and how many will still be 'in the pipeline' another 10 years from now.



Am I? Or are you just ignorant of the facts?

7 Recent Discoveries That Could Revolutionize Medicine

"The medical research community has uncovered a worrying trend: why are large numbers of medical researchers apparently misrepresenting their findings?

In a commentary published in journal Nature in 2012, scientists from biotech company Amgen found that findings in 90 per cent of the important cancer papers published in significant medical journals could not be replicated, even with the help of original scientists....

The reasons why some scientists might engage in research misconduct remain unclear but it's likely that multiple factors are at play.

With scientists constantly having to compete for precious research grants, the pressure to come up with successful findings is intense. To prosper, scientists need to publish as many papers as possible, ideally in well-respected journals.

Dr Fang told the New York Times in April 2012, that "the scramble to publish in high impact journals may be leading to more and more errors".

And the peer review process for identifying anomalies in research before it is published is clearly failing."


You might be putting your faith in the wrong people.



Did I say that? Treating a disease with pharmaceuticals is an expensive and ongoing business. People sometimes have to sell their homes to pay for these 'treatments'.....and very often those treatments fail.

Altering eating habits and taking the right supplements can go a long way to bolstering the immune system so that diseases don't get started in the first place. The food we eat is mostly "processed" to death...literally. We need living food and the food industry cant sell living food because it goes rotten too quickly. The reason that they process food so much is to kill every living thing in it so that shelf-life can be maintained and the food still looks OK. Its dead, but you'd never know it and it tastes OK because it is full of artificial ingredients to make it sell.



:facepalm: Yep, just the sort of retort I expect from those blinded by science. My mistrust is well founded...perhaps you should do some research yourself?



I can tell you now, that genetically inherited diseases are more widespread than ever. Some cancers, heart disease, neurological disorders and sexually selective diseases are on the increase. No one knows what is in their DNA when they produce children.....and as time goes on, the gene pool becomes more and more polluted. There is no way to prevent this.

The fact that people eat better than their forebears can explain the longer life, but its not always a 'good' longer life. How many of those elderly ones end up in nursing homes providing a nice profit for those who run them and a convenient abdication by their families who do not wish to be burdened by them?
Big pharma benefits too when you consider how many 'pills' these elderly people take three or four times a day.
money1.gif

Living longer is not necessarily living better. Quality of life counts more than quantity....so how many elderly people do we have with dementia these days?...and the number is increasing at an alarming rate.

"More intelligent"? One wonders, in what ways? Most of the young people I see seem to have their noses glued to a screen of some sort. They have forgotten how to communicate face to face and their hand writing skills are disappearing, being replaced with thumb texting and causing a whole new disease category. Heaven knows what damage is being done by the radiation emissions of all our electronic devices.
The recreational activities of our youth often include a lot of drugs and alcohol....hardly an intelligent passtime.

They often go to college for years, only to come out with no jobs to go to. You'll find them waiting on people who are fortunate enough to have a job and be able to afford to eat out. o_O

And people in richer countries all report that they are much happier with all the materialism, all the science, all the medicine and all the education they are getting from modernity than people in less rich countries who are getting less of these things.
85


Australians are one the happiest people. So however much you carp, people say they are happy with modernity and technology, science, capitalism and modern medicine and want to have more of this to be happier and you have no authority to proclaim otherwise on their behalf.
http://worldhappiness.report/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/04/WHR15.pdf
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
And people in richer countries all report that they are much happier with all the materialism, all the science, all the medicine and all the education they are getting from modernity than people in less rich countries who are getting less of these things.
85


Australians are one the happiest people. So however much you carp, people say they are happy with modernity and technology, science, capitalism and modern medicine and want to have more of this to be happier and you have no authority to proclaim otherwise on their behalf.
http://worldhappiness.report/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/04/WHR15.pdf


You do realize that "happiness" is relative, don't you? Despite Australia's apparent "happiness" compared to the rest of the world, we have an epidemic of depression in this country.....go figure.
putertired.gif
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You do realize that "happiness" is relative, don't you? Despite Australia's apparent "happiness" compared to the rest of the world, we have an epidemic of depression in this country.....go figure.
putertired.gif
Depression is as subjective or objective as happiness and life-satisfaction is. People in the developing world are far more depressed than in rich countries, but such countries do not have the resources or the awareness to cater to mental health. The fact remains that in all measures of happiness (including reporting people to grade their life satisfaction from 0 to 10 with 10 being what their ideal is) , Australians and most developed nations come out on top.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I can honestly say that I have enjoyed my choice more than you can possibly imagine. Having reached the age I am with a future is more satisfying than only living to pass on genes to the next generations who will forget that I even existed.

Explain again please how believing in an afterlife makes this life more satisfying.

Human life has more value than that or else Christ would not have come to offer a ransom for us.

Of course human life has more value than that, and once again, a religious belief doesn't change that value.

You might not like or want what the Creator is offering, but I think its wonderful. My future is not in the hands of corrupt humans who have deified themselves and trampled upon the free will of others. They have never learned from the lessons of history and are therefore doomed to repeat them.

You keep referring to a creator. That's yet another religious belief. None of these has any evidentiary support, and any comment you make that assumes gods and afterlives is just another statement of your beliefs. What you believe is only of interest to you. I am interested in what you know and can demonstrate or argue effectively.

Your life acquires no more meaning, purpose, or value because you hold these beliefs. And really, how does being selected to praise a god for eternity make ones life meaningful? If I believed that that was my purpose, I'd be pretty disappointed about the future and my place in it.

I have lived life both from within and without Christianity. I find the latter more satisfying, which is why I remain a non-Christian. Losing those beliefs didn't lead to any loss of meaning in this life. In fact, the transition got my attention refocused on it. As I recall, we were continually thinking about God and the afterlife, which we were told were more important than anything on this earth. We were basically biding our time for that happy day when we would go home to be with the Lord. It was kind of like waiting at a bus stop. Where do you find meaning there?

Now, I am focused on what really gives life meaning - being a father, a husband, a teacher, a community benefactor, etc., not pie-in-the-sky.

I will take 'the road less traveled'. :D

Or perhaps you're just sitting at the bus stop waiting for something that may never come, placated by promises that need not be kept.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Its a place I trust because they are seasoned researchers who glean their knowledge from a wide variety of sources.
Unlike you, apparently. Anybody can shop around for facts which support their opinion while ignoring all of the facts that don't and paste them on a website, especially if they have a vested interest in distorting facts to further their religious cause.

I am also capable of researching things for myself, which I often do. You asked us to "defend what you believe to be true about biology?" yet when we do, its not a credible source to you.
Firstly, you're not defending your beliefs by throwing up a bunch of links.

Secondly, yes, they are not credible because they are not from an impartial site. They are from a site that is obviously biased towards a JW-favourable interpretation of the facts. That is obvious.

It is to us, just as yours are credible to you.
The difference is that our sources are actual, credible, impartial scientific sources.

But your sources are as biased as you think ours are.
128fs318181.gif
No, they're not.

Who said science must be right about everything?
Nobody. But if you're going to argue about science it's helpful if you establish a baseline that science is reasonably trustworthy, otherwise you're just blowing hot air.

The first source, Collective Evolution, is a well-known peddler of woo and junk science, that publishes articles like these:
Is There An Organ In Your Brain Which Seats Your Soul? This May Be The Answer
More Wikileaks Documents Surface Confirming The Existence Of Extraterrestrial Life & UFOs
Free Energy Live In Action! This Is Breathtaking As Science Is Being Re-Written
New Study Links Vaccine Induced Overload To Autism
The Biggest Secret: Do Reptilian-Human Hybrids Run Our World?
Important 9/11 Investigation Reveals Undeniable Truth

So, yeah, I'm not likely to take anything they say seriously.

The GreenPeace article simply concludes only that there are "potential health risks" but fails to present any solid evidence because "We simply do not know if GM crops are safe for human consumption" and "Independent scientific studies on the safety of GM crops for animals or humans are severely lacking".

This is hardly evidence for your position that illnesses are increasing as a result of GM crops.

No actually, we have enough to feed the world in spite of them. These GMO crops don't kill you outright......they bite hard further down the line, more than likely affecting the generations to come.
Evidence, please.

It has been proven that ancient agricultural methods without the need for artificial chemical fertilizers and herbicides make for healthier food.
Evidence, please.

Mineral deficiency is high on the list of why there is so much illness. Minerals used to come from the soil, alive with microorganisms and from uncontaminated water supplies.
Now foods are grown in an artificial way and much of the goodness is lost due to farming methods, polluted water supplies and extended cold storage of produce. Nothing we eat is fresh unless we grow it ourselves.
Once again, please provide evidence that this is true.

'You are what you eat' is a well known phrase and even Hippocrates said "let food be thy medicine, and medicine be they food". Tampering with what was designed to keep us healthy and growing GMO crops in mineral deficient soil is threatening the very stuff of life. We are presently paying the price for messing with that. How many truly healthy people do you know? In case you hadn't noticed, ill health is a thriving and very lucrative industry.
If you had been living a few hundred years ago, you probably WOULD be living among a larger number of overall healthy people. Because most other people you would have known would already be dead.

I am suggesting that lightening up on the amount of chemotherapy given, might be what is seen, rather than mortality rates improving from the administration of chemotherapy itself. It is toxic and many deaths occur because of it. People die from the treatment before they die from the cancer. Their last days are spent suffering needlessly from from a toxic treatment.

Nineteen NHS trusts to review chemotherapy over high death rates | Daily Mail Online
Having worked in a children's oncology unit, I find it dispicable that you would claim any kind of moral superiority over experts in the field of cancer treatment. Heck, even your own Daily Mail article refutes you:

"Professor Jane Maher, joint chief medical officer at Macmillan Cancer Support, said the finding was 'concerning'.

'Chemotherapy is a crucial part of cancer treatment, having had an enormous impact on rising survival rates over the years,' she said."

What the article definitively does NOT say is that chemo is CAUSING deaths, simply that it CAN lead to problems following treatment.


Since cancer and heart disease are the #1 killers in western nations, perhaps its time to look at what causes these, rather than administering toxic chemicals to someone who is already sick? And with heart patients, shutting the door when the horse has already bolted is a little late.
Your medical expertise is admirable. Surely, all those cancer doctors I have worked with could use your incredible wisdom.

"According to the National Institutes of Health, obesity and overweight together are the second leading cause of preventable death in the United States, close behind tobacco use (3). An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic (57).

Obesity: Facts, Figures, Guidelines

wvdhhr.org/bph/oehp/obesity/mortality.htm"
causesofdeath.jpg



It seems as if the government likes to ban things that are not dangerous to health, such as medicinal cannabis, and give the green light to all the things that make us sicker. Oh, but we have a pill for that.
121fs725372.gif
You do realize that, like I said, people are healthier now than they ever have been, right?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
The Bible speaks (SNIP)
I don't care what the Bible says.

If all those billionaires and scientists were to opt for alternative therapies, that would be an admission, now wouldn't it?
No, it would just mean they're as ill-informed and desperate as many other people.

I have seen people with cancer who were told to go home and die. They sought out alternative treatments even at that late stage and recovered....never to have the cancer return.
Evidence, please. Also, who has earned a Nobel prize for this?

If I was diagnosed with cancer tomorrow, I would not touch the orthodox methods of treatment. I would try proven alternative methods that work with the body's immune system, not against it.
"Proven alternative" is an oxymoron. If it works, and it can be demonstrated to work, it wouldn't be an "alternative".

And even if I died, I would not spend what little time I had left with my head in a bucket. My last days would be spent with my family, dealing with my pain in other, more natural ways.
That's your choice, just as it's the choice of everyone else to receive treatment that actually demonstrably helps and significantly increases their chance of survival.

7 Recent Discoveries That Could Revolutionize Medicine

Check out these breakthroughs and tell me when we might see all of them come to fruition, and how many will still be 'in the pipeline' another 10 years from now.
Don't blame scientists for the hyperbolic language of reporters. Where are the actual SCIENTISTS claiming this stuff?


Am I? Or are you just ignorant of the facts?

7 Recent Discoveries That Could Revolutionize Medicine

"The medical research community has uncovered a worrying trend: why are large numbers of medical researchers apparently misrepresenting their findings?

In a commentary published in journal Nature in 2012, scientists from biotech company Amgen found that findings in 90 per cent of the important cancer papers published in significant medical journals could not be replicated, even with the help of original scientists....

The reasons why some scientists might engage in research misconduct remain unclear but it's likely that multiple factors are at play.

With scientists constantly having to compete for precious research grants, the pressure to come up with successful findings is intense. To prosper, scientists need to publish as many papers as possible, ideally in well-respected journals.

Dr Fang told the New York Times in April 2012, that "the scramble to publish in high impact journals may be leading to more and more errors".

And the peer review process for identifying anomalies in research before it is published is clearly failing."


You might be putting your faith in the wrong people.
It's still better than putting my faith in liars.

Did I say that? Treating a disease with pharmaceuticals is an expensive and ongoing business. People sometimes have to sell their homes to pay for these 'treatments'.....and very often those treatments fail.
Less often than you would like, it would seem.

Altering eating habits and taking the right supplements can go a long way to bolstering the immune system so that diseases don't get started in the first place.
Agreed, which is why I advocate healthy eating. Also, aren't supplement "unnatural" by your logic?

The food we eat is mostly "processed" to death...literally. We need living food and the food industry cant sell living food because it goes rotten too quickly.
Do you know what pasteurization is?

The reason that they process food so much is to kill every living thing in it so that shelf-life can be maintained and the food still looks OK. Its dead, but you'd never know it and it tastes OK because it is full of artificial ingredients to make it sell.
Using emotive language like "dead" or "living" is an obvious mischaracterisation. When food is pasteurized or cooked, it is done so to eliminate pathogenic bacteria that CAUSES illness. Some nutrient value is removed in the process, but barely enough to diminish the nutritional value of the food significantly, and the reduced risk of disease more than compensates. How often do you eat raw chicken?

:facepalm: Yep, just the sort of retort I expect from those blinded by science. My mistrust is well founded...perhaps you should do some research yourself?
I have, which is why I am able to refute your sources - which you obviously just found by looking for favourable sources on Google. You have no scientific credibility whatsoever, so don't act like you do.

I can tell you now, that genetically inherited diseases are more widespread than ever. Some cancers, heart disease, neurological disorders and sexually selective diseases are on the increase. No one knows what is in their DNA when they produce children.....and as time goes on, the gene pool becomes more and more polluted. There is no way to prevent this.
I see you "telling" me, but I don't see you demonstrating it.

The fact that people eat better than their forebears can explain the longer life, but its not always a 'good' longer life. How many of those elderly ones end up in nursing homes providing a nice profit for those who run them and a convenient abdication by their families who do not wish to be burdened by them?
What relevance does that have? "More people living longer" means "More people living to an age where they can no longer look after themselves". Is that really surprising? Are you suggesting that we should just "allow" people to die once they reach a certain age?

Big pharma benefits too when you consider how many 'pills' these elderly people take three or four times a day.
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You're right. How dare companies benefit from elderly people needing their help. We should start euthenizing the elderly just to spite them!

Living longer is not necessarily living better. Quality of life counts more than quantity....so how many elderly people do we have with dementia these days?...and the number is increasing at an alarming rate.
Again, see above. We're also seeing a lot more people die of sex-related accidents than we see dying of smallpox.

"More intelligent"? One wonders, in what ways?
The important ones.

Most of the young people I see seem to have their noses glued to a screen of some sort. They have forgotten how to communicate face to face and their hand writing skills are disappearing, being replaced with thumb texting and causing a whole new disease category. Heaven knows what damage is being done by the radiation emissions of all our electronic devices.
Your personal experiences are not an accurate reflection on global society as a whole, as worldview altering as that possibility may be to consider.

The recreational activities of our youth often include a lot of drugs and alcohol....hardly an intelligent passtime.
How is that relevant?

They often go to college for years, only to come out with no jobs to go to. You'll find them waiting on people who are fortunate enough to have a job and be able to afford to eat out. o_O
More people are going to higher education now than at any point in human history. Your perception of kids these days is obviously extremely lacking.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Explain again please how believing in an afterlife makes this life more satisfying.

That depends on what sort of "afterlife" you imagine. The one promoted in Christendom makes no sense and is not what the bible teaches.

Humans were created to live on earth forever. (Read Genesis and see that there was no natural cause of death) There was never any indication that humans would go to heaven. So in ancient Jewish belief, the promised Messiah would set up his kingdom on earth and put everything here to right. The Jews never recognized Jesus as Messiah and are still waiting. We Christians OTOH are waiting for his return. It could be any time. (Matthew 24:42-44) He just told us what to look for in world events and to be ready.

Christendom changed the idea that humans were meant to live on earth, to "everyone's going to heaven"....unless they are going to "roast in hell for all eternity". :rolleyes:

Christ came to choose a finite number of humans to rule with him in his kingdom, (Revelation 20:6) but the vast majority of humans will be citizens of God's kingdom here on earth. There is no 'going to heaven to sing God's praises forever' with nothing more to stimulate the mind and creativity than that. If that is what you think the "afterlife" is all about, you are greatly mistaken. The Creator gave us his qualities....his creativity, his ingenuity, his morality, his justice, a relative exercise of power, curiosity, inventiveness, and the capacity to love. These qualities are what make us human. Animals cannot duplicate the capacity for all these qualities that humans have been endowed with. We are not governed solely by instinct....all of the rest of creation are.

Your life acquires no more meaning, purpose, or value because you hold these beliefs.

I strongly believe that it does. With confidence in God's plans for the future, we are not stuck with the ill informed, and badly executed plans of men. This life isn't all there is. If it is then, what purpose does our existence and our intellect serve? The animals are better off in their ignorance.....are they not?

And really, how does being selected to praise a god for eternity make ones life meaningful? If I believed that that was my purpose, I'd be pretty disappointed about the future and my place in it.

The meaningful life that God purposed for us at the beginning will soon become our reality. There will be no end of possibilities in the exercise of all those gifts that the Creator gave us. Once sin is eradicated, then full brain capacity and total physical health will enhance our journey of discovery and we will have no limitations on the time we wish to spend exploring what God has made. This is my vision of the future....and it fills me with anticipation, not dread. Life is not a dead end.

Or perhaps you're just sitting at the bus stop waiting for something that may never come, placated by promises that need not be kept.

If you are standing on the road watching me sitting at the bus stop, you will most probably be run over by the bus you are not expecting......(Matthew 24:37-39) Wouldn't that be sad? :(
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Unlike you, apparently. Anybody can shop around for facts which support their opinion while ignoring all of the facts that don't and paste them on a website, especially if they have a vested interest in distorting facts to further their religious cause.

You are free to believe whatever you wish. There is a rather large proportion of what science publishes that is bogus. What I am ignoring are not facts. They are suggestions masquerading as facts. Science is rather good at distorting facts, but I guess if you swallow every word, you wouldn't notice.

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Who would dare to question the findings of the top scientists?
They would lose their job and get ridiculed out of academia.

Firstly, you're not defending your beliefs by throwing up a bunch of links.

Secondly, yes, they are not credible because they are not from an impartial site. They are from a site that is obviously biased towards a JW-favourable interpretation of the facts. That is obvious.

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You crack me up. What is "obvious" is that you cannot provide an unbiased source for your own position.

If you want to put faith in the words of the scientists, then you are free to do so. My faith lies elsewhere. :)

The difference is that our sources are actual, credible, impartial scientific sources.

"Actual, credible, impartial, scientific" to whom? Is preaching to the converted counted in this discussion?

I do not find scientists to be any of those descriptors except to those who put them on a pedestal.

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Self exaltation is hardly a recommendation. I am right and you are wrong is hardly an argument.

I have my own pedestal and it is occupied by someone who has proven worthy of that position.

The world is controlled by sinister forces with vested interests in perpetuating false ideas. Popular opinion can be the result of influential propaganda. Perception management is actually a science. No human is immune to these tactics. We have to examine all the evidence, not just the stuff that reinforces our own view. I have done that....have you?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I don't care what the Bible says.

Open-mindedness lacking a little, eh?

Fortunately, for Newton, Boyle, Kepler, and others, their appreciation for God and the Bible is what encouraged them to pursue their interests, and they made valuable contributions to science.
 

Zaganos

New Member
I haven't been able to read every single post in this thread, but the idea that creationism is atheism is only something I've seen among evangelical Protestant Christians.


As an Orthodox Christian growing up, most Orthodox people I knew believed in evolution and saw the creation story in Genesis as allegorical but true. Now that I'm a Muslim I've never met an educated Muslim that denies evolution, including some of the most conservative scholars. The Muslims that deny evolution are usually people from countries where evolution isn't taught.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Its a place I trust because they are seasoned researchers who glean their knowledge from a wide variety of sources. I am also capable of researching things for myself, which I often do. You asked us to "defend what you believe to be true about biology?" yet when we do, its not a credible source to you. It is to us, just as yours are credible to you.
But your sources are as biased as you think ours are.
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Who said science must be right about everything?



10 Scientific Studies Proving GMOs Can Be Harmful To Human Health

http://www.greenpeace.org/australia/PageFiles/434214/GM_Fact Sheet_Health_ and_Env_Impacts.pdf



No actually, we have enough to feed the world in spite of them. These GMO crops don't kill you outright......they bite hard further down the line, more than likely affecting the generations to come.
It has been proven that ancient agricultural methods without the need for artificial chemical fertilizers and herbicides make for healthier food.

Mineral deficiency is high on the list of why there is so much illness. Minerals used to come from the soil, alive with microorganisms and from uncontaminated water supplies.
Now foods are grown in an artificial way and much of the goodness is lost due to farming methods, polluted water supplies and extended cold storage of produce. Nothing we eat is fresh unless we grow it ourselves.

'You are what you eat' is a well known phrase and even Hippocrates said "let food be thy medicine, and medicine be they food". Tampering with what was designed to keep us healthy and growing GMO crops in mineral deficient soil is threatening the very stuff of life. We are presently paying the price for messing with that. How many truly healthy people do you know? In case you hadn't noticed, ill health is a thriving and very lucrative industry.



I am suggesting that lightening up on the amount of chemotherapy given, might be what is seen, rather than mortality rates improving from the administration of chemotherapy itself. It is toxic and many deaths occur because of it. People die from the treatment before they die from the cancer. Their last days are spent suffering needlessly from a toxic treatment.

Nineteen NHS trusts to review chemotherapy over high death rates | Daily Mail Online



Since cancer and heart disease are the #1 killers in western nations, perhaps its time to look at what causes these, rather than administering toxic chemicals to someone who is already sick? And with heart patients, shutting the door when the horse has already bolted is a little late.

"According to the National Institutes of Health, obesity and overweight together are the second leading cause of preventable death in the United States, close behind tobacco use (3). An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic (57).

Obesity: Facts, Figures, Guidelines

wvdhhr.org/bph/oehp/obesity/mortality.htm"
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It seems as if the government likes to ban things that are not dangerous to health, such as medicinal cannabis, and give the green light to all the things that make us sicker. Oh, but we have a pill for that.
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Given the pessimism with which you have been indoctrinated, I suggest that you avoid medical therapy, and probably the rest of technology as well. It all comes from this decrepit species for which you have no respect.

Have you considered homeopathy or reflexology? They have the same foundation as religion, which should appeal to you.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Actually it was you who belittled your own claims of being a good artist, I just quoted your post. For anyone who is interested, here is the actual post you are referring to: Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?
It actually started with her thinking I belittled her art/claims to be an artist (even though I said no such thing) when I stated anyone can be an artist. Really, I don't even know how accusations of being belittled began because they started even though none were given - though taking things personally seems to be the culprit.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Depression is as subjective or objective as happiness and life-satisfaction is.

There has always been depressive illnesses....but in the world at present, there is an explosion of mental health issues in countries that have a relatively good standard of living. So the cause is not really related to the perceived happiness......or is it that the happiness itself is an illusion?....something created by the media to convince people that they must be happy because of all the material advantages they have? If they are not happy, it just means that they don't have enough "things"....we all know that "things guarantee happiness"...right? :shrug:

People in the developing world are far more depressed than in rich countries, but such countries do not have the resources or the awareness to cater to mental health.

The facilities in developed countries are horribly over-stretched when it comes to mental health issues. Putting mentally ill people in a lock up situation with other mentally ill people is not a recipe for recovery...it is a recipe for more mental health issues. Many of the world's homeless even in developed lands are suffering with mental health problems. They are social outcasts if there is no family who can cope with them or who can afford ongoing health care for them.

The fact remains that in all measures of happiness (including reporting people to grade their life satisfaction from 0 to 10 with 10 being what their ideal is) , Australians and most developed nations come out on top.

How does one measure "happiness" in real terms I wonder? Is it just contrasted with others who are not happy? How do you quantify such a thing? No one is happy all the time....and some people are happy some of the time....and a lot of people are miserable most of the time. What is it that makes us truly happy? It will be very different for you than it will be for me, coming from vastly different cultures and belief systems.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It Aint Necessarily So said:
Given the pessimism with which you have been indoctrinated, I suggest that you avoid medical therapy, and probably the rest of technology as well. It all comes from this decrepit species for which you have no respect.

Nice try. I never said all medical therapy or technology is wrong.....you are implying that I said that. :rolleyes:
The good that mankind has accomplished is however, vastly overshadowed by the evil that is perpetrated in the name of science and progress.

If hemp had been permitted to hold its place as the fiber of choice in the manufacturing industry, instead of deadly petroleum based products, the world would not be choking on its own non-bio-degradable waste. Do some research on how that situation came about. Hemp based plastic is bio-degradable and marine creatures can actually eat it and its not toxic. Hemp has so many uses and yet it was outlawed because rich men wanted to sell their own products. Wealthy people and institutions can dictate to governments and influence policy. In this case with disastrous results.

It Aint Necessarily So said:
Have you considered homeopathy or reflexology? They have the same foundation as religion, which should appeal to you.

Actually I put a great deal more store in alternative medicine that I ever would in current orthodox medicine. That is just my personal view. I have a neighbor who is at present undergoing chemotherapy for cancer. Have you ever had to watch a person undergo this kind of treatment? It is cruel and inhuman and often the person does not survive the treatment and has to spend their final days like skeletons unable to keep anything down. This is after months of chemical poisoning and radiation. Their families suffer right along with them.

On the other hand, I had a dear friend who declined chemotherapy and chose gentler forms of natural treatment. She eventually lost her fight for life, but not because of the treatments. She died from the cancer and suffered only in the last few weeks of her life rather than long months of chemo, heaving her heart out. I think she made the wiser choice, personally.

I believe that God made herbs for medicine and the doctor's handbook in centuries past was all about herbal medicine. Medical science replaced all those herbs with pharmaceutical drugs made from synthetic substances in a lab. Unlike natural medicines, these were not compatible with the body which resulted in awful side effects. But not to worry because they have other drugs to sell you for those unwanted side effects as well....as long as you can afford them of course.

Today's approach to medicine is disgusting IMV. Doctors are hoodwinked by the big pharma funded medical schools, being taught all about pharmacology, but nothing about nutrition. The world is digging a grave with its teeth by consuming artificial foods and medicines, lining the pockets of the drug companies and big business, and creating drug dependent customers for life. o_O
 
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