• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
How about the Magi following a star to a manger under it? Imagine trying to decide when to stop, and which manger was directly under the star when you did. Imagine your camel galloping about 1000 mph through the sand at night to keep up with the star. You might spill your myrrh.

You do realize that the magi were pagan astrologers "from the East" (Babylon) who were duped by the devil into trying to get Jesus killed? The birth of Christ was announced to Jewish shepherds who were tending their flocks outdoors. They didn't do that in the cold winter months, but kept their flocks indoors.

Read the account. (Matthew ch 2) It doesn't say there were three wise men, as depicted in many nativity scenes. And it doesn't say that they were ever at the stable. By the time the astrologers arrived, Jesus was possibly two years old and living in a house with his parents.

Who said the camels were galloping?
And the star was not a celestial body but more likely some kind of light that led them first to Jerusalem...not Bethlehem. After their visit to Herod, the magi followed the star to where it stopped directly over the house where they found him.
The Bible refers to the devil as an "angel of light".

I am surprised by your ignorance actually. o_O
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My portrayal of this world is the Bible's portrayal. This is a world ruled by God's adversary and seen clearly in the evil acts perpetrated by wicked humans under his influence. Man's "inhumanity" does not come from within humans but is influenced by the unseen wicked forces that the Bible speaks about.

Is this omnipotent, omnisicient god responsible for nothing? Why does that demon exist? Why wasn't it destroyed? Why was it unleashed on earth?

In my book, omnipotence + omnisicience = omniresponsibility.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Remember, it didn't last very long; less than a day. If it had lasted a week or more, I would agree. Although.....
Even then, it's a very profound event, and we've been charting the skies since our earliest days. Time and space, literally the entire universe, would have to be stopped for this event to occur. This wouldn't be an event like a passing comet. Literacy wasn't exactly widespread then, but surely such a truly phenomenal event would have been recorded by everyone who had any concept of writing. But yet while we find congruent reports of passing by comets from numerous places during the same times, there is nothing but the Bible to support this story.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
But just one quickie question, if you don't mind -- how does "omnipotence" have an "adversary" that can "rule?"

There are only two possibilities: either God and the Adversary are both omnipotent, in which case they are both "gods" of the same sort and doomed never to be able to defeat one another, or one is omnipotent and the other isn't, in which case the former wins BY DEFINITION without even a contest.

A good question from someone who apparently has no concept of what God's original purpose was....

There is another option...one you obviously haven't contemplated....

Since the devil never called God's power into question, omnipotence was never in this equation. The adversary called into question the Creator's right to set rules or boundaries for his creation. It was God's Sovereignty that needed to be defended from a slanderer who accused the Creator of holding back something beneficial from his human children....and lying to them about the penalty.

As free willed beings, all three participants in the original rebellion chose to disobey their rightful Sovereign. Should there have been no consequences? If God had merely dispatched the rebels, what was to stop another 'satan' (resister) from taking up his banner? This issue had to be settled once and for all time, before the Creator could accomplish his purpose, not just for the earth, but for the entire universe.

Once the 'genie was out of the bottle' (a knowledge of evil was unleashed on humanity) there was no sending it back, and there was no better way to prove the rightfulness of God's original command than to allow all the rebels to experience the full consequences of their choices. A knowledge of evil would not benefit the human race in any way. God would allow them to prove that to themselves.

There is a legal case being tried in the courts of heaven. With observers both in heaven and on earth, God would allow the rebels to see that they were wrong in their assumptions. He would use this rebellion to teach the rest of humanity and also his spirit sons, that when you disobey God, nothing good comes of it.

He gave the rebels enough time to try all manner of self rule, but each of them have proven to be a failure. The death penalty for the original crime meant that the devil kept losing his followers, so he had to constantly recruit more....he still is....its just more blatant now that his time is coming to an end.

So all humans have been exposed to the lesson and some (a "few"compared to the whole of humanity) have realized the folly of alienation from God and have endeavored to accept God's means of reconciliation.....the sacrifice of his son.

It appears as if your tunnel vision has not served you well. :oops:

If you are going to criticize something, at least try to get your facts straight. OK?

I paraphrase Henry Higgins (My Fair Lady): "Why is thinking something Christians never do?"

Funny, I would apply those words to atheists. :D
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Is this omnipotent, omnisicient god responsible for nothing? Why does that demon exist? Why wasn't it destroyed? Why was it unleashed on earth?

In my book, omnipotence + omnisicience = omniresponsibility.

Please read my last post.

The devil was not created by God. Any more than a criminal is created by a mother giving birth to him.

The spirit being who became the devil, chose his course because he abused the gift of free will. He made himself a "devil" and a "satan".
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
My portrayal of this world is the Bible's portrayal. This is a world ruled by God's adversary and seen clearly in the evil acts perpetrated by wicked humans under his influence. Man's "inhumanity" does not come from within humans but is influenced by the unseen wicked forces that the Bible speaks about.

Ephesians 6:10-13:
"Finally, go on acquiring power in the Lord and in the mightiness of his strength. 11 Put on the complete suit of armor from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts of the Devil; 12 because we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. 13 For this reason take up the complete suit of armor from God, so that you may be able to resist in the wicked day and, after you have accomplished everything, to stand firm."




Gandhi spoke for himself....When British Viceroy Lord Irwin asked Gandhi what he thought would solve the problems between Great Britain and India. Gandhi picked up a Bible and opened it to the fifth chapter of Matthew and said: “When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world.”
Was he wrong?

He is also reported to have said...
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” I totally agree. What passes for Christianity today, is nothing close to what Christ began.



MLK achieved a lot for American blacks, after decades of human rights abuses, but evil people took him out. Racism is still thriving in some parts of America.

The Psalmist wrote....
"Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish."


Good men often have no one to fill their shoes when they die.....so wicked humans again ascend to power....and again the power corrupts them.

Mandela was not about racism, but about equality. He would not agree with what is happening in South Africa today.

The rise of a new black racism in South Africa

The 'white squatter camps' of South Africa | Daily Mail Online
And as far as world domination by Nazism or fascism.....history was actually written in advance in Bible prophesy. Namely the book of Daniel. The Anglo-American dual world power was to be the dominant ruling power until the coming of Christ to judge the world. The Bible speaks of no human world power to follow. (Daniel 2:44) The rule of God's kingdom has no successors.



Euthanasia is a rather good metaphor. Someone needs to put this world out of its misery. I think that the world is groaning in agony. Can man provide a solution.....or is he the problem? The woeful state of this world is clearly not fixable by men. According to the Bible, they will attempt one last shot at controlling things with a single world government, taking away all the freedoms that humans have fought to achieve....but it will fail. (Revelation 13:16-18)



These are your gods...correct?

Krishna

display-1417.jpg


Ganesha

display-1195.jpg


Brahma
3851.jpg


When will your gods get their wish? Can you see any evidence of these men who "strive relentlessly with...various gifts from one generation to the next to bring this world a bit more towards completion, and maturing and shaping our own spirit in that striving"? I cannot.

The God of the Bible says of these gods....

" A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes, but they cannot see; 6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear;
A nose, but they cannot smell; 7 Hands they have, but they cannot feel; Feet, but they cannot walk; They make no sound with their throat. 8 The people who make them will become just like them, As will all those who trust in them."
(Psalm 115:5-8)

How do you know that they exist?
Gandhi will most certainly include the JW as the kind of Christians he does not like, and Gandhi's Jesus was like that of Jefferson, a moral teacher and a person who exemplified non-violent resistence to authority upto death. He rejected all other claims of Christians about sin and its forgiveness only through Jesus and his sacrifice. He also rejected all ideas of Satan or human condition as punishment for sin. He was thoroughly a Hindu. You should read him more closely.

For me, it is completely apparent from looking at the world that we are living through the greatest, most prosperous, most flourishing and the happiest period of human history. A greater fraction of people enjoy a quality of life that is overwhelmingly better than anything the world as ever seen. Does not mean that there is not suffering and deprivation in many regions and there are many who are suffering from poverty or war or sickness. But the fraction is far far less than ever before . So for me, I see that the promise of a more perfect world and a more perfect human spirit through human effort is being fulfilled right now right here throughout the world, and all around. The objective as well as the subjective evidence is there for all to see who have not been blinded by ideological bias. True there is much to be done, as material wants have to complemented by psychological and spiritual wants as well. But the success and the progress is unambiguous. And the effort, big and small will continue on to make the world tomorrow better than the wold today, everywhere, and by all people who have not been misled by the toxic beliefs like the one you ascribe to.
http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/pdf/MDG_Gap_2015_E_web.pdf
Were the Millennium Development Goals a success? Yes! Sort of


MDG 1: Eradicate Extreme Poverty and Hunger

The target of reducing extreme poverty rates – people living on just $1.25 a day – by half was met five years ahead of the 2015 deadline. Globally the number of people living in extreme poverty has fallen from 1.9 billion in 1990 to 836 million in 2015.

However, target of halving the proportion of people suffering from hunger has narrowly been missed. The proportion of undernourished people in the developing regions has fallen from 23.3 per cent in 1990 to 12.9 per cent in 2014.

MDG 2: Achieve Universal Primary Education

Primary school enrolment figures have shown an impressive rise, but the goal of achieving universal primary education has just been missed. The primary school enrolment rate in developing regions reached 91 per cent this year, up from 83 per cent in 2000.

MDG 3: Promote Gender Equality and Empower Women

About two two-thirds of developing countries achieved gender parity in primary education. Progress has been particularly strong in Southern Asia. Only 74 girls were enrolled in primary school for every 100 boys in 1990. Today, 103 girls are enrolled for every 100 boys.

MDG 4: Reduce Child Mortality

The global under-five mortality rate has declined by more than half since 1990 – dropping from 90 to 43 deaths per 1,000 live births. This falls short of the targeted drop of two-thirds.

In practical terms this means 16,000 children under-five continue to die every day from preventable causes. A terrible reality made worse by the fact we know what each one of these major killers are, and what can be done to thwart them.

MDG 5: Improve Maternal Health

Since 1990, the maternal mortality ratio has been cut nearly in half. This is an impressive result, but as well with goal 4 it falls short of the two-thirds reduction that was aimed for. There were an estimated 289,000 maternal deaths in 2013.

MDG 6: Combat HIV/AIDS, Malaria and Other Diseases

The results with MDG 5 are mixed. The target of halting and beginning to reverse the spread of HIV/Aids has not been met – although the number of new HIV infections fell by 40% between 2000 and 2013.

According to the UN, over 6.2 million malaria deaths have been averted between 2000 and 2015, primarily of children under five years of age in sub-Saharan Africa. The global malaria incidence rate has fallen by an estimated 37 per cent and the mortality rate by 58 per cent

MDG 7: Ensure Environmental Sustainably

Between 1990 and 2015, 2.6 billion people gained access to improved drinking water, meaning the target of halving the proportion of people without access to safe water was achieved. Worldwide, 2.1 billion people have gained access to improved sanitation.

MDG 8: Develop a Global Partnership for Development

Official development assistance from wealthy countries to developing countries increased by 66 per cent in real terms between 2000 and 2014, reaching $135.2 billion.
-------------------------------------------

My observations and objective data quoted above shows that your worldview and your idea about the state of humanity, the state of the world are false and deluded and all your claims are as empty and devoid of reality as the specific idea of God you believe in. This world and humanity will endure and flourish long after your specific religion has disappeared and had been forgotten to all but the historians of the future. That is my prophecy.

The statues you linked to are some of the most popular representations of Hindu Gods, though they, like everything else are various facets of the one fundamental essence, Brahman that animates all that is. Any representation that connects with the person in question will do.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Even then, it's a very profound event, and we've been charting the skies since our earliest days. Time and space, literally the entire universe, would have to be stopped for this event to occur.

What do you imagine the Creator to be? If this being had the power to created the universe, why would his ability to stop the rotation of the earth for a mere day be outside of his abilities? Why would it need to involve the whole universe? I don't understand your reasoning. :shrug:
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
What do you imagine the Creator to be? If this being had the power to created the universe, why would his ability to stop the rotation of the earth for a mere day be outside of his abilities? Why would it need to involve the whole universe? I don't understand your reasoning. :shrug:
Can the creator of a diesel truck just stop the truck as it is speeding along the highway?
Also, I don't assume there is/was a creator, and if there is, I don't assume it is omnipotent.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Can the creator of a diesel truck just stop the truck as it is speeding along the highway?


If the diesel truck creator was as powerful as God, it would be no problem at all. If scientists could duplicate the relative tensile strength of a spiders web, and make net out of it, they would be able to stop a jumbo jet in mid flight.

Also, I don't assume there is/was a creator, and if there is, I don't assume it is omnipotent.

If God is not omnipotent, then there is no way the universe could exist. The laws that govern everything in it had a law maker. What laws that you live by had no one to formulate them...implement them...and enforce them?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Gandhi will most certainly include the JW as the kind of Christians he does not like, and Gandhi's Jesus was like that of Jefferson, a moral teacher and a person who exemplified non-violent resistence to authority upto death. He rejected all other claims of Christians about sin and its forgiveness only through Jesus and his sacrifice. He also rejected all ideas of Satan or human condition as punishment for sin. He was thoroughly a Hindu. You should read him more closely.

I think Gandhi would have approved of JW's in their practice of the Christian faith. We also believe in non-violent resistance to any command of men that violates a command of God....even if it means our death. Gandhi's Hindu beliefs might have made him reject some of our beliefs, but at least we are promoters of peace, as he was.

For me, it is completely apparent from looking at the world that we are living through the greatest, most prosperous, most flourishing and the happiest period of human history. A greater fraction of people enjoy a quality of life that is overwhelmingly better than anything the world as ever seen. Does not mean that there is not suffering and deprivation in many regions and there are many who are suffering from poverty or war or sickness. But the fraction is far far less than ever before . So for me, I see that the promise of a more perfect world and a more perfect human spirit through human effort is being fulfilled right now right here throughout the world, and all around. The objective as well as the subjective evidence is there for all to see who have not been blinded by ideological bias. True there is much to be done, as material wants have to complemented by psychological and spiritual wants as well. But the success and the progress is unambiguous. And the effort, big and small will continue on to make the world tomorrow better than the wold today, everywhere, and by all people who have not been misled by the toxic beliefs like the one you ascribe to.

Coming from one of the world's developing nations, I can see why you might think so. Many Asian nations are being extracted from abject poverty by being given the jobs that were previously done by workers in other nations, who are now unemployed. :(

Tell me though, is your country over-run by refugees? Is your country struggling economically because of trying to help others? Or is your country only functioning because of outside assistance? Does it make sense to you that countries that are now trillions of dollars in debt, are expected to offer handouts to those who are struggling economically just as much as they are? :shrug:

You might see a great deal of change in the way many Indian people live their lives nowadays.....but at what cost? Your caste system creates a lot of your problems....doesn't it? How do you see that changing any time soon?

MDG 1: Eradicate Extreme Poverty and Hunger

The target of reducing extreme poverty rates – people living on just $1.25 a day – by half was met five years ahead of the 2015 deadline. Globally the number of people living in extreme poverty has fallen from 1.9 billion in 1990 to 836 million in 2015.

However, target of halving the proportion of people suffering from hunger has narrowly been missed. The proportion of undernourished people in the developing regions has fallen from 23.3 per cent in 1990 to 12.9 per cent in 2014.

MDG 2: Achieve Universal Primary Education

Primary school enrolment figures have shown an impressive rise, but the goal of achieving universal primary education has just been missed. The primary school enrolment rate in developing regions reached 91 per cent this year, up from 83 per cent in 2000.

MDG 3: Promote Gender Equality and Empower Women

About two two-thirds of developing countries achieved gender parity in primary education. Progress has been particularly strong in Southern Asia. Only 74 girls were enrolled in primary school for every 100 boys in 1990. Today, 103 girls are enrolled for every 100 boys.

MDG 4: Reduce Child Mortality

The global under-five mortality rate has declined by more than half since 1990 – dropping from 90 to 43 deaths per 1,000 live births. This falls short of the targeted drop of two-thirds.

In practical terms this means 16,000 children under-five continue to die every day from preventable causes. A terrible reality made worse by the fact we know what each one of these major killers are, and what can be done to thwart them.

MDG 5: Improve Maternal Health

Since 1990, the maternal mortality ratio has been cut nearly in half. This is an impressive result, but as well with goal 4 it falls short of the two-thirds reduction that was aimed for. There were an estimated 289,000 maternal deaths in 2013.

MDG 6: Combat HIV/AIDS, Malaria and Other Diseases

The results with MDG 5 are mixed. The target of halting and beginning to reverse the spread of HIV/Aids has not been met – although the number of new HIV infections fell by 40% between 2000 and 2013.

According to the UN, over 6.2 million malaria deaths have been averted between 2000 and 2015, primarily of children under five years of age in sub-Saharan Africa. The global malaria incidence rate has fallen by an estimated 37 per cent and the mortality rate by 58 per cent

MDG 7: Ensure Environmental Sustainably

Between 1990 and 2015, 2.6 billion people gained access to improved drinking water, meaning the target of halving the proportion of people without access to safe water was achieved. Worldwide, 2.1 billion people have gained access to improved sanitation.

MDG 8: Develop a Global Partnership for Development

These are things that developed nations have enjoyed for many decades. I can see why you might see these as improvements to the current lifestyle where you live.

My observations and objective data quoted above shows that your worldview and your idea about the state of humanity, the state of the world are false and deluded and all your claims are as empty and devoid of reality as the specific idea of God you believe in. This world and humanity will endure and flourish long after your specific religion has disappeared and had been forgotten to all but the historians of the future. That is my prophecy.

Are you a prophet now? :D Delusion is a funny thing.....even the deluded imagine that it can only happen to others. :confused:
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You do realize that the magi were pagan astrologers "from the East" (Babylon) who were duped by the devil into trying to get Jesus killed? The birth of Christ was announced to Jewish shepherds who were tending their flocks outdoors. They didn't do that in the cold winter months, but kept their flocks indoors.

Read the account. (Matthew ch 2) It doesn't say there were three wise men, as depicted in many nativity scenes. And it doesn't say that they were ever at the stable. By the time the astrologers arrived, Jesus was possibly two years old and living in a house with his parents.

Who said the camels were galloping?
And the star was not a celestial body but more likely some kind of light that led them first to Jerusalem...not Bethlehem. After their visit to Herod, the magi followed the star to where it stopped directly over the house where they found him.
The Bible refers to the devil as an "angel of light".

You each have your own unique religion.

I am surprised by your ignorance actually.

But I am not by yours.

I don't blame you. You chose the more comfortable path. I'm in no position to judge you for that. Whatever you think helps you get through life is fine with me.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The devil was not created by God. Any more than a criminal is created by a mother giving birth to him.

The spirit being who became the devil, chose his course because he abused the gift of free will. He made himself a "devil" and a "satan".

So your all-knowing god is responsible for none of its choices then, right?

How can any other entity, devil or human, be held more accountable that an and omniscient and omnipotent god?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Hockeycowboy.

The bible not only scientifically inaccurate about nature, it is also historically and archaeologically inaccurate - in another word, just plain "wrong".

As you know, it possible to get rough estimates of when the Flood occurred, based on the generations and reigns and years mentioned in the OT, for instances the "430 years" in Exodus 12:40-41, and "480 years" in 1 Kings 6:1 (the time between Moses leading Israelites and the time Solomon began the construction of the temple.

Based on the Masoretic Text, which included the translation you are reading, the Flood could be dated to about 2340 BCE.

I should stress out that I did say "about", so it is a approximation, based on how one would interpret Exodus 12:40-41. (Is the "430 years" to Jacob arrival in Egypt, or when Abraham received the covenant in Genesis 15 or 17? My best guess would be Genesis 15.)

My point is when the Flood happened, and what happened afterwards, as mentioned in Genesis 10, revealing the inaccuracies of the bible when it comes to history, not science.

If Genesis 10 listed the kingdoms and cities found by the descendants of Noah's children, AFTER THE FLOOD (after 2340 BCE), were true, then it would show up in history and archaeology.

It doesn't.

To give you two examples.

It say that Egypt (some translations used Mizraim) was the son of Ham (Genesis 10:7). Which mean, if your belief in Genesis is right, then there would be no Egypt BEFORE 2340 BCE.

But 2340 BCE would put this in the early 6th dynasty of Egypt (2345 - 2185 BCE), in the reign of Teti (2345 - 2333 BCE). We know this because his pyramid is located in Saqqara.

If Genesis Flood was true, then Teti should have died like everyone else, who didn't board Noah's Ark. Teti wouldn't have the manpower to build his pyramid, small as it may be. If the Flood had occurred there wouldn't be much around building any monuments.

If the Flood was true, there would be no earlier 5 dynasties before Teti's 6th dynasty.

And there are archaeological evidences that Egypt existed before 2340 BCE, such as the pyramids of Giza, built in the 4th dynasty, and the first pyramid in Saqqara built in the 3rd dynasty, known as the Step Pyramid (built for Djoser, who flourished around 2670 BCE).

More ancient artefacts existed, which predated the start of the dynasties in Egypt, which demonstrated that Egyptian culture existed in the Predynastic Period (c 4000 - c 3050 BCE), such as statuettes and figurines of the gods Horus, Seth, Hathor, etc.

The other example is Genesis 10:8-12, where Nimrod supposedly found many cities in Babylonia and Assyria. Those cities supposedly did exist before the Flood and before Nimrod. And one city I noticed in the list is Uruk or Erech.

But archaeologically and historically, Uruk predated 2340 BCE. In fact, Uruk predated the Sumerian civilisation (3100 - 1900 BCE). The first settlement of Uruk was found around 5000 BCE, around the time of Eridu period (also known as Ubaid 1, 5400 - 4800 BCE), which would make Uruk one of the oldest cities in Mesopotamia.

Uruk reached the height of it power during the Uruk period (c 4000 - c 3100 BCE). Around 3500 BCE, Uruk was the largest city in the world at this time.

If the Bible is wrong about Egypt and Uruk, then it is not much of use with history, so what else is wrong with the bible's historicity?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think Gandhi would have approved of JW's in their practice of the Christian faith. We also believe in non-violent resistance to any command of men that violates a command of God....even if it means our death. Gandhi's Hindu beliefs might have made him reject some of our beliefs, but at least we are promoters of peace, as he was.
So is every Hindu and every secular humanist here.



Coming from one of the world's developing nations, I can see why you might think so. Many Asian nations are being extracted from abject poverty by being given the jobs that were previously done by workers in other nations, who are now unemployed. :(
False. Unemployment rates in Australia or USA is quite low (5%) and the total number of jobs and employment opportunities created by globalization far far exceeds any losses. The idea that somehow the pie is the same and prosperity for you is poverty for me is a reactionary idea not supported by any observational facts. US, Europe and Japan should look to the obvious mismanagement of their own stock market and banking institutions as the source of their current problems and not point fingers at others without any justification.

Tell me though, is your country over-run by refugees?
Your country is NOT overrun by refugees. Now I see what kind of hypocritical Christian you truly are. If according to you, Australia with GDP/capita of $47,500 (compare with Brazil $15,500, China $14,400, India $6187) and a population density of only 2.9 persons per sq. km (India 400 persons per sq. Km, South Korea 500 persons per sq. km) cannot take in a mere 19,000 refugees a year, then it must be said that such an opinion merely exposes the unempathetic, self-serving nature that you truly possess. And by the way, Australia hosts an insignificant amount of refugees compared to most countries, much less than its fair share.
Refugee population by country or territory of asylum | Data

Countries hosting highest number of refugees (every nation above 200,000 refugees included):-
Country
Jordan
2,771,502

West Bank and Gaza
2,051,098
Lebanon
1,606,709
Turkey
1,587,374

Pakistan
1,505,525

Iran, Islamic Rep.
982,027

Syrian Arab Republic
677,756

Ethiopia
659,524

Kenya
551,352

Chad
452,897

Uganda
385,513

China
301,052

Afghanistan
300,423

Sudan
277,833

Iraq
271,143

United States
267,222

Cameroon
264,126

Yemen, Rep.
257,645

France
252,264

South Sudan
248,152

Egypt, Arab Rep.
236,090

Russian Federation
235,750

Bangladesh
232,472

Germany
216,973


Is your country struggling economically because of trying to help others?
Another lie. Anyways India hosts 199,900 refugees, just after Germany while Australia holds just 35,000. You have got to be kidding me with all this nonsensical claims!

Or is your country only functioning because of outside assistance?
No. But, Australia being among the richest nation on earth, has an ethical duty to help out other nations who are in trouble.

Does it make sense to you that countries that are now trillions of dollars in debt, are expected to offer handouts to those who are struggling economically just as much as they are?
Another lie. Just as reminder. US:- $56,000 per capita, Australia $47,000 per capita vs Sudan $1500 per capita. Its quite clear that delusion about the world, falsely believing the world is not worth the effort and pure self-centered attitudes all go hand in hand.

Furthermore, its known quite well that countries with leading economies run with high debts not necessarily because their economy is bad, but because, people wish to invest in that country considering its bonds more secure. For example here is the historical debt/GDP ratio of UK when it was the world empire.
350px-UK_GDP.png

Its when poor countries (with low GDP/capita) incur high debt burdens then, and only then, one has cause for concern.


You might see a great deal of change in the way many Indian people live their lives nowadays.....but at what cost? Your caste system creates a lot of your problems....doesn't it? How do you see that changing any time soon?
Obviously it has changed for the better at an extremely rapid rate. Much remains to be done of course, but only a blind person will say that things have changed for the better in innumerable ways over the last 60 years. And this attitude is reflected in the opinion polls as well. 50% of Indians and 60% of Brazilians and 66% Chinese feel that they and their nation are considerably better off than they were 5 years ago.
Satisfaction-03.png



These are things that developed nations have enjoyed for many decades. I can see why you might see these as improvements to the current lifestyle where you live.
And unlike you, most people in developed world are still quite satisfied with this life, more than in any developing nation,
Satisfaction-08.png


You see Deeje, I have actual objective facts and figures to support my claims about the state of the world while you have nothing but subjective opinions, a few odd emoticons and a blind belief in a wrong interpretation of a fictional God.


Are you a prophet now? :D Delusion is a funny thing.....even the deluded imagine that it can only happen to others. :confused:
Projection writ large. Only the deluded make crazy prophetic connections between old made up prophecies and current world.

And the odd part is, you come from one of the most stable and prosperous developed economies of the world, still going along quite strongly.
Australia sets record for economic growth
You may have had personal misfortune, but your analysis of your nation's condition is completely and utterly devoid of any truth.
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You each have your own unique religion.

Who is the "You" that is referred to here?

There is nothing in the Gospel of Matthew that suggests that the magi were anything but deluded pagan astrologers used by the devil as dupes to have Jesus killed. It didn't work. God told them to go home via another route, so they did. Any Christian who tries to tell you that Christmas has anything to do with the birth of Jesus Christ is sadly deluded. December 25th was celebrated in Rome as the birthday of the sun god. A bit of nifty deception...and voila! The birthday of the sun god becomes the birthday of the son of God, complete with the feasting and the gift giving and the merriment. Christmas is not Christian and never was.
Easter is not Christian...and never was either.

The ancient Jews did not celebrate birthdays because they were tied up with spiritism which was forbidden in Israel. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Nowhere in the Bible will you find anyone's birthdate recorded.....most especially not Christ's.

You chose the more comfortable path. I'm in no position to judge you for that. Whatever you think helps you get through life is fine with me.

You sound like you are treading a very comfortable path yourself there IANS. So I will say the same to you.

So your all-knowing god is responsible for none of its choices then, right?

He is not responsible for the abuse of a gift, particularly when he made the consequences of the only negative command there was in Eden perfectly clear before the first pair ever ate the forbidden fruit.

Because they were free willed, he could not completely exclude access to this knowledge because they had to decide for themselves not to eat it. All God could do was make the penalty for disobeying his command so great that only a fool would go against it. He knew that this knowledge would not benefit them and they had no reason to distrust him. He had already given them so much. This command imposed no hardship whatsoever.

How can any other entity, devil or human, be held more accountable that an and omniscient and omnipotent god?

If you understood what really happened in the beginning and why God handled things the way he did with the long term benefit in view, you might not have abandoned him so readily. Do you really think you know better than an all-knowing God?
Just because he doesn't operate by your rules, doesn't mean that he doesn't have a better way of dealing with things than short sighted humans who think he's stupid.....or doesn't exist. I believe he will show you one day.....what do you imagine that you would say to him then?
 
Last edited:

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Mahatma Gandhi — 'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

Yeah, I've quoted that many times myself!

However, it's not directed toward the Bible....only toward those who fail to live by it, i.e., fail to imitate Christ.

Which is part of the sad commentary of the times in which we live.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Promoters of peace.....

So is every Hindu and every secular humanist here.

Really? You speak for all?

Then what about these clashes I've read about between Hindus and Muslims?

Isn't the hatred that exists, one of the reasons Pakistani's formed their own country?

You're resorting to ad hominem, you know what they say that implies!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So is every Hindu and every secular humanist here.

I believe that my God is scanning all hearts in order to draw them to his truth....even Hindus and secular humanists are being offered the good news about God's Kingdom. Many are responding. But the Creator has no time for those who have no time for him.

You are welcome to your beliefs, but please don't paint your gods as somehow superior to mine. You have no more proof of their existence than I have of mine. We each operate by faith.

Another lie. Anyways India hosts 199,900 refugees, just after Germany while Australia holds just 35,000. You have got to be kidding me with all this nonsensical claims!

I didn't mean it like that. I was asking from the point of view of the economic situation. Australia is not geographically in a position to take refugees from the Northern Hemisphere. We have trouble enough dealing with those who want to flee from other oppressive regimes. India is in the same position.....your refugees are not mostly from the middle east. They are closer to home....like Tibet or Sri Lanka, Pakistan or Bangladesh.


Talking of debt...this is scary.... http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

The point of my comments was that the world cannot fix its own problems. You seem to think that your gods are promoting good government that will fix everything through the efforts of man...I was trying to illustrate their complete failure thus far. Given their track record and current world events, I cannot see them solving any of the more important problems in the near future.

You see Deeje, I have actual objective facts and figures to support my claims about the state of the world while you have nothing but subjective opinions, a few odd emoticons and a blind belief in a wrong interpretation of a fictional God.

As a worshipper of what I believe are fictional gods yourself, I don't think that you are in a position to judge the existence of my God objectively.

And I can tell you now that you have misinterpreted much of what I said. I am sorry if I did not make it clearer.

I wasn't just talking about stats that can be easily manipulated. I was talking about real people who have lost real jobs because greedy commercialism has exploited poorly paid workers in nations like yours. China's workforce is similarly exploited. The only winners are the greedy merchants making money hand over fist by the manufacture of poor quality goods by underpaid workers.

The standard of living in many developing countries has only really changed for the better in the cites. What about people in outlying areas? Who takes care of your elderly ones if they have no immediate family to provide for them?

Only the deluded make crazy prophetic connections between old made up prophecies and current world.

Since the Bible's prophesies have all come true so far, I think your assertion is a little premature. You can keep relying on man if you wish.....I will rely on someone more dependable.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe that my God is scanning all hearts in order to draw them to his truth....even Hindus and secular humanists are being offered the good news about God's Kingdom. Many are responding. But the Creator has no time for those who have no time for him.

You are welcome to your beliefs, but please don't paint your gods as somehow superior to mine. You have no more proof of their existence than I have of mine. We each operate by faith.



I didn't mean it like that. I was asking from the point of view of the economic situation. Australia is not geographically in a position to take refugees from the Northern Hemisphere. We have trouble enough dealing with those who want to flee from other oppressive regimes. India is in the same position.....your refugees are not mostly from the middle east. They are closer to home....like Tibet or Sri Lanka, Pakistan or Bangladesh.


Talking of debt...this is scary.... http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

The point of my comments was that the world cannot fix its own problems. You seem to think that your gods are promoting good government that will fix everything through the efforts of man...I was trying to illustrate their complete failure thus far. Given their track record and current world events, I cannot see them solving any of the more important problems in the near future.



As a worshipper of what I believe are fictional gods yourself, I don't think that you are in a position to judge the existence of my God objectively.

And I can tell you now that you have misinterpreted much of what I said. I am sorry if I did not make it clearer.

I wasn't just talking about stats that can be easily manipulated. I was talking about real people who have lost real jobs because greedy commercialism has exploited poorly paid workers in nations like yours. China's workforce is similarly exploited. The only winners are the greedy merchants making money hand over fist by the manufacture of poor quality goods by underpaid workers.

The standard of living in many developing countries has only really changed for the better in the cites. What about people in outlying areas? Who takes care of your elderly ones if they have no immediate family to provide for them?



Since the Bible's prophesies have all come true so far, I think your assertion is a little premature. You can keep relying on man if you wish.....I will rely on someone more dependable.
Indeed I will rely on objective well validated statistics and scientific knowledge and the collective experience of the vast majority of people coupled with meditative and spiritual insights of the most ancient living religious traditions of the world while you rely on your unjustifiable belief in the interpretations of an eccentric and insular little faith tradition that is less than 140 years old. But not to worry, it may take a few hundred more rebirths, but you will see the light eventually. After all the world isn't going anywhere. ;)

Are the humans of the northern hemisphere incompatible with the humans of the southern hemisphere? What north-south thing you are talking about? You are an island, you have no neighbors to trouble you at all. Your complaints about drowning in refugees or complaints of oh-so crushing burden of aiding less fortunate nations seem selfish, baseless and fact-free complaints of a group that has turned its back on this world.
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Promoters of peace.....



Really? You speak for all?

Then what about these clashes I've read about between Hindus and Muslims?

Isn't the hatred that exists, one of the reasons Pakistani's formed their own country?

You're resorting to ad hominem, you know what they say that implies!
here means in this forum. Which Hindu or secular humanist is going around in this forum issuing death threats?
 
Top