Why do we exist this way?

[TheGrind]

It's obvious, is it not, or am I just dysfunctional? That "life", in general, lacks meaning?

For anything in life to have any significance it has to have a permanent effect and retain information.
For example,
if you shovel dirt to create a hill and the hill erodes back down into a plain, nothing has been created, no one will remember, and no one will care (Granting that dirt, labor, and people, and their thoughts, have any intrinsic value anyway.)

From that premise, I propose that there are only two activities a person can participate in:
Get on a hamster wheel.
Watch everything a person has worked for or has simply enjoyed, die.

Of course, whenever a person brings up the possibility that life lacks meaning, the inevitable arguments come:
"With a personal relationship with God, your actions have both permanence and remembrance!"
"Eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"
":: Insert your own religious (Spiritual, if you prefer the word) gibberish here::"

I will consent that, if there is a god, and he has spoken to you, and he offers immortality, you should listen. I don't care if you're just hearing voices in your head or your insane, just go with it. If you get a fuzzy feeling, all the better, if you feel a presence, awesome. Do what he says and get your key to that rocket ship. Doesn't do jack * for me or the vast majority of other people God seems to be mute to, however.

As for those who think living for the moment isn't just a complete waste that lacks any real significance, that's a mentally handicapped viewpoint. I don't care what package it's in, I don't care how pretty it looks, it's just a blunted way of looking at the world that is tantamount to walking around blindfolded. Similarly to those who have a "personal relationship with God", good luck with that, more power to you, if you can somehow get some sort of pleasure out of vague and impermanent activities, that's awesome.

Then there's all the rest of the truly delusional, those that worship satan, those that believe in reincarnation, or those that have incredibly superstitious beliefs about symbols (Ankhs, etc).

All that said, I really wish I could believe in those things, if I could force myself to do it, I would. I could do mental gymnastics to prove that God is a perfectly reasonable thing to have in the universe, but it wouldn't make the fact that everything I do is meaningless to be any less true.

A parable...
Two men are playing war at a table before being hanged.
First man: "Why are we even doing this, an eternity of nothing follows this brief blip on the time line of the universe, a time line that doesn't even exist."
Second man wins a battle: "Yay!"
First man: ...
Second man wins another battle: "YAY!"
First man throws a handful of cards at the second: "These are just cards! There's no value in them!"
Second man: "Well ya, we might as well enjoy this game while it lasts though."
First man: "Are you *ing insane? There's no more bleak of a game than in that which there is no hope, there is no effect, there is no remembrance, and we DIE at the end! It would have been better that we were both never pushed from the womb than we looked at a game such as this. Let us just go and be hanged, for it's better to be dead than to live with death always on our doorstep."

Again, life is like pushing a wheelbarrow of whatever turns you on (Roses, bigotry, acceptance, love, ect) up a hill to decorate your own grave.

I didn't write this because I'm suicidal or because I need someone to make me feel better about myself, I wrote this very simply for those people that haven't heard any voices in their head, that see jobs and all the work they do as just trivial, pointless, and "Grasping for the wind", I want them to see that it isn't depression or some kind of psychotic breakdown, what I have written is the simple reality. I wrote this to be at least the understanding person that I could find no where else. (With the exception of the books of Job and Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes 4:1-3)

Where does that leave me? My body is naturally inclined to seek survival. There are things in this life that I enjoy for the moment, though I'm under no illusion that it's going to give me any lasting satisfaction. Also, I retain some irrational hope that something bizzarre is going to happen that'll make my life meaningful.

Now, as this is a forum, I know there is going to be responses, but I respectfully request that your rebuttals be written as if you were standing in front of my old broken tombstone.
Thanks.

The asterisks (*) here indicate where I'm forced to act in accordance with other peoples moral taboos that I am not allowed to make any judgment about whatsoever. (I will say, however, that it's ironic.)

 

[linwood]

Also, I retain some irrational hope that something bizzarre is going to happen that'll make my life meaningful.

Irrational hope is the best kind though isn`t it?

 

[Caladan]

I didn't write this because I'm suicidal or because I need someone to make me feel better about myself, I wrote this very simply for those people that haven't heard any voices in their head, that see jobs and all the work they do as just trivial, pointless, and "Grasping for the wind", I want them to see that it isn't depression or some kind of psychotic breakdown, what I have written is the simple reality. I wrote this to be at least the understanding person that I could find no where else. (With the exception of the books of Job and Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes 4:1-3)

Where does that leave me? My body is naturally inclined to seek survival. There are things in this life that I enjoy for the moment, though I'm under no illusion that it's going to give me any lasting satisfaction. Also, I retain some irrational hope that something bizzarre is going to happen that'll make my life meaningful.

To be honest, it does sound like a classic depressive rant. I think you need to reconsider your situation, perhaps come to terms with an on going depression, or simply realize that where you are now, is not where you want to be.
There are things that give lasting satisfaction: dedication to a field of interest or an art, an active circle of friends, etc. (real satisfaction is when all the categories are combined).
One of the main things is, instead of spending time on inane activities, to elocate time to meaningful activities, instead of asking 'whats the point?'
it breathes new dimensions into a person's life.

All people deal with personal erosion, but a genuine interest in different fields shows a healthy character. while some people choose at the end of the day to sit infront of the TV and watch mind numbing game shows, stuffing junk food into their mouths, other people will go and pursue an activity that will fuel their inner worth, and sense of wonder.

EDIT:
Btw im not sure thats what I got from your post. but religion is not a factor here. meaningful activity ar large is 'secular'.

 

[3.14]

if we life forever we would be able to make hundreds of hills and make sure non of them went away, but you share the world with other people they aslo want to make a hill and so forth and before long the whole world is nothing but a bumpy landscape, with no place left for our kids to make there own hills

 

[CarlinKnew]

YouTube - Monty Python - Always Look on the Bright Side of Life

 

[sojourner]

Life is always miserable when we're turned inward. Turn outward. Your "outlook" will improve.

 

[Storm]

To be honest, it does sound like a classic depressive rant. I think you need to reconsider your situation, perhaps come to terms with an on going depression, or simply realize that where you are now, is not where you want to be.
There are things that give lasting satisfaction: dedication to a field of interest or an art, an active circle of friends, etc. (real satisfaction is when all the categories are combined).
One of the main things is, instead of spending time on inane activities, to elocate time to meaningful activities, instead of asking 'whats the point?'
it breathes new dimensions into a person's life.

All people deal with personal erosion, but a genuine interest in different fields shows a healthy character. while some people choose at the end of the day to sit infront of the TV and watch mind numbing game shows, stuffing junk food into their mouths, other people will go and pursue an activity that will fuel their inner worth, and sense of wonder.

EDIT:
Btw im not sure thats what I got from your post. but religion is not a factor here. meaningful activity ar large is 'secular'.

As one who has struggled with clinical depression all her life, I have to agree with this.

TheGrind, I'm not trying to dismiss or belittle your thoughts, but it really does sound like you're depressed. I found what looks like a decent self-assessment at the Mayo Clinic's website. I urge you to take it and seek help if necessary. You say you're not suicidal, and that's great. However, there are milder forms of depression.

 

[Wandered Off]

For anything in life to have any significance it has to have a permanent effect and retain information.

I think this is a flawed view that may be a major cause of your seemingly bitter assessment.

Suppose for a moment you really could create something significant to you that is permanent. Billions of centuries later when nobody is around to observe it, does it have significance? No, because significance is not intrinsic. It comes from the observer.

To me, you seem to have set yourself up for disappointment by adopting unrealistic expectations of significance - because you assume it's intrinsic to objects or actions.

 

[Riverwolf]

You want meaning?

It's certainly pointless (in my opinion) to look for meaning from an outside source. (Unless you're religious.)

Therefore, give yourself meaning.

Yes, nothing we do will matter in the long term life of the earth, so it's best to not think about that unless the environment is concerned. (Even with that, the earth will recover from whatever we do eventually)

So think in the short term. Nobody will care? So? Won't you care?

 

[Quagmire]

I always thought it ironic that, traditionally, Solomon is given credit for the authorship of Ecclesiastes on the one hand, and The Song of Songs on the other.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

 

[Halcyon]

It's a pretty accurate description of life, because life is depressing to a degree. You're born, you eat, *edit* wander about, get stressed, pop out a mini version of yourself (if you're so inclined) and die. Not really any more meaning to it than asteroids have meaning bouncing off each other or stars have meaning in getting older and blowing up, just happens, and in 3 or 4 generations no one is likely to remember you.

But then, it's not exactly a novel description either, people have been thinking the exact same thing for thousands of years. Buddha thought about it so much he came up with a religion/philosophy with the concept (that is, life being essentially pointless suffering) as its starting point.

 

[Willamena]

For anything in life to have any significance it has to have a permanent effect and retain information.

I think I may have identified the problem.

Edit: Wandered Off beat me to it.

 

[Karl R]

For anything in life to have any significance it has to have a permanent effect and retain information.

This is where I disagree with you. In order for something to have permanent significance, it needs to meet your criteria. But since even the universe is finite, you may find it impossible to do anything that will have permanent significance.

if you shovel dirt to create a hill and the hill erodes back down into a plain, nothing has been created, no one will remember, and no one will care

A little over 39 years ago, a married couple had sex. A sperm ran into an egg, and 9 months later I was born. Eventually I will be dead and gone, no one will remember, and no one will care.

But that action has been of utmost significance to me.

As for those who think living for the moment isn't just a complete waste that lacks any real significance, that's a mentally handicapped viewpoint.

You've glossed over those of us who are looking at time periods between the current moment and eternity.

Yesterday I went to my yoga class. I practice yoga so I will be healthier, more active and in less pain ... not only now, but for the rest of my life. Speak to someone who is old. Their health (or lack of health) is one of the most significant things in their life.

And I've learned the yoga from some wonderful teachers, so their actions hold significance in my life. And several of my teachers close their classes by saying, "I thank my teachers and my teachers' teachers." The significance of what they learned and taught has been passed down for centuries. That's far short of eternity, but it extends well beyond the present moment.

Yesterday my teacher opened the class with this quote (I think it was from Thich Nhat Hanh) "Without love and laughter, yoga is just a lot of hard work." I like that quote ... probably because I'm the class clown of my yoga class. One of my goals for each class is to get the entire class to burst out laughing at least once. So in a small way, my contribution helps my classmates stick with yoga, because it's no longer just hard work.

From the dictionary:
handicap - a physical or mental disability making participation in certain of the usual activities of daily living more difficult.

By definition, I would say that your viewpoint is far more mentally handicapping than mine.

A parable...
First man throws a handful of cards at the second: "These are just cards! There's no value in them!"
Second man: "Well ya, we might as well enjoy this game while it lasts though."
First man: "Are you *ing insane? There's no more bleak of a game than in that which there is no hope, there is no effect, there is no remembrance, and we DIE at the end! It would have been better that we were both never pushed from the womb than we looked at a game such as this. Let us just go and be hanged, for it's better to be dead than to live with death always on our doorstep."

This is where we fundamentally disagree.

I look at the second man and see someone who can find pleasure in the simple transitory activities in life ... even when he is on the brink of dying. He can find more joy in a meaningless diversion in the final minutes of his life than the first man can find in the entirety of his own life.

life is like pushing a wheelbarrow of whatever turns you on (Roses, bigotry, acceptance, love, ect) up a hill to decorate your own grave.

My life is about making this world a better place ... if only in a small way ... and inspiring other people to lead better lives ... if only in a small way. These effects don't end when I leave the room or when I leave this life.

I want them to see that it isn't depression or some kind of psychotic breakdown, what I have written is the simple reality. I wrote this to be at least the understanding person that I could find no where else.

I hate to burst your bubble, but it's depression, not reality.

Now, as this is a forum, I know there is going to be responses, but I respectfully request that your rebuttals be written as if you were standing in front of my old broken tombstone.

Why? I don't have conversations with rocks. That would be meaningless. I'll save my words for people who still have the capability to learn and grow.

 

[Quagmire]

I always thought it ironic that, traditionally, Solomon is given credit for the authorship of Ecclesiastes on the one hand, and The Song of Songs on the other.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

Well?

Well, since you ask; According to the traditions of (far as I can see) every Abrahamic religion Solomon is considered to be the wisest human that ever lived.

The lesson of Ecclesiastes is that even the wisest of the wise, approaching the "what's it all about" question, couldn't come up with anything satisfactory using the analytical mind.
The verdict of the analytical mind is, basically, "all is vainity", everybody dies, there doesn't really seem to be much of a point to existence.

But, if you flip forward to the Song of Songs you find the same guy (yeah I know it isn't really the same guy but lets go with tradition and pretend it is for a minute) absolutely gushing about love and beauty and basically how great it is to be alive, because in this case, he's approaching life with his heart rather than with his mind.

There's the lesson; think with your mind, but live through your heart.

Answering the question isn't the point (according to this scenario). The point seems to be to live in such a way that the question seems irrelevant.

 

[McBell]

For anything in life to have any significance it has to have a permanent effect and retain information.

Um...
Why?

 

[TheGrind]

I'm not depressed. Enjoyment of trivial activities doesn't make the activities any less trivial.
I look at my life, and all I see is a joke, one that I don't really find funny. I see a series of events, whether good or bad, that all end in death.
The thesis and conclusion of this thing we go through is all death. I don't see any salvation or justice in any of this.
Now whether you feel like making a bunch of ultimately futile activities euphoria inducing is up to you, but it doesn't negate the facts about life:
1.) Every happy moment in your life dies.
2.) Every person you care about will die, and you'll probably watch most of them die.
3.) You will be dead infinitely longer than you'll be alive.
4.) The memory of how you felt, and all the actions of your life, will fade into nothing.

Does that make me depressed? Logic tells me I *should* feel depressed, but it really just feels like bemusement. I feel more like I'm already dead. I'm writing words that are just as inane as life. I don't have any answers, there isn't any answer.
Just like everyone else, I have things I like doing, I have ups and downs and my life is going to run its course regardless of how anyone feels about it. Just like everyone else, I have hopes.

**HOWEVER** I'm not going to sugar coat life and say that this crap I feel and the crap I do isn't just trivial, meaningless, and painful, because it is. There's nothing in life that's worth doing. There's no aspiration that's worth achieving.
I completely agree with Job and the book of Ecclesiastes. This life is nice while it's going well, always sucks eventually, and is absolutely beautiful if there's a god.

By definition, I would say that your viewpoint is far more mentally handicapping than mine.

Of course you would.

Um...
Why?

Logic.
It's bizzarre for anyone to tell me that life, as a whole, has value because of a summation of activities that each disappear into nothing. I hope everyone that believes that continues to believe it, kudos to them, but it's cheating. Again, I didn't write this for the people that see this intrinsic problem and say, "Oh ok, well I'm going to ignore that and enjoy everything I enjoy." I wrote it for those people that simply see the futility for what it is.

I think I may have identified the problem.

Let me clarify the premise:
If I wash a dish, I understand a few things. I understand that it's going to get dirty again, and I'm going to wash it again. I understand that when I wash it again *it is as if I had never washed it*. I also understand that I have to wash it in order to enjoy eating off of it and hopefully avoid getting sick.
When I say that life is not worth living just to get up and wash dishes you agree, but when I say that every action in life is this way you disagree. (I assume.) I see that as irrational.

...it's not exactly a novel description ..., people have been thinking the exact same thing for thousands of years. Buddha thought about it so much he came up with a religion/philosophy with the concept (that is, life being essentially pointless suffering) as its starting point.

The only way people have ever been able to deal with the problem is by finding ways of ignoring it or just killing themselves. I just wish there were more people that looked at the problem for what it is and not shirk away from it with a weird philosophy.

 

[Rakhel]

Now, as this is a forum, I know there is going to be responses, but I respectfully request that your rebuttals be written as if you were standing in front of my old broken tombstone.
Thanks.

Standing in front of your old broken tombstone, I'll say you should have have gone into acting. The melodrama being displayed in your original post of this thread would be best used as a monologue for an audition for Hamlet.

 

[rusra02]

Romans 8:20-22 in the Bible describes man's sorry state today as being one of 'futility'. The theme of Ecclesiastes, a book in the Bible, is a life lived for selfish reasons is 'vanity and a striving after the wind'.
Our short, trouble filled existence today is not what Jehovah God wanted for us. It is the consequence of man's rebelling against God and the influence of Satan, God's adversary.
For our lives to have any real meaning, they need a connection to Jehovah God, the Creator of the universe. Many today, however, have doubts that God even exists, and they therefore find it difficult to relate to him. Nonetheless, evidence for his existence abounds. Many look at the heavens and earth and agree with the apostle Paul when he said: “His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made.” They also can repeat with the psalmist his recorded words: “The heavens are declaring the glory of God; and of the work of his hands the expanse is telling.”—Rom. 1:20; Ps. 19:1.
Learn to know the true God, and you will find the real meaning of life.

 

[McBell]

Logic.

What logic are you using?
Perhaps if you laid it out in a logical manner, those of us who disagree can at least perhaps see how you come to your conclusions.

It's bizzarre for anyone to tell me that life, as a whole, has value because of a summation of activities that each disappear into nothing.

So for something to be meaningful to you, it has to last for forever?

I hope everyone that believes that continues to believe it, kudos to them, but it's cheating.

ROTFLMAO
Cheating?
Interesting take on it.
However, I am not in the forever trap you seem to be stuck in.

Again, I didn't write this for the people that see this intrinsic problem and say, "Oh ok, well I'm going to ignore that and enjoy everything I enjoy." I wrote it for those people that simply see the futility for what it is.

WHo are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

Let me clarify the premise:
If I wash a dish, I understand a few things. I understand that it's going to get dirty again, and I'm going to wash it again. I understand that when I wash it again *it is as if I had never washed it*. I also understand that I have to wash it in order to enjoy eating off of it and hopefully avoid getting sick.

It is as if you had never washed it?
What, you only use a dish once, then wash it, then never use it again?
If you do use it again, your whole premise goes down the drain.

When I say that life is not worth living just to get up and wash dishes you agree, but when I say that every action in life is this way you disagree. (I assume.) I see that as irrational.

If that is what makes you happy, by all means go with it.
However, you are going to be hard pressed to get those outside your choir to jump into your forever trap.

The only way people have ever been able to deal with the problem is by finding ways of ignoring it or just killing themselves. I just wish there were more people that looked at the problem for what it is and not shirk away from it with a weird philosophy.

I disagree that your claimed problem exists any further than you can throw it.

 

[TheGrind]

I grew up living with a man that was a surgeon, a pilot, and a psychologist at the head of a certain division in a mental health clinic. He raised thirteen children, fifteen if you count me and my sister. In a few years he will most likely be dead. I'll always remember him, but after a few generations everything that he accomplished and everything that he made and did in this world will be completely obliterated.
People want me to enjoy life for the moment just because they say so. That's the bottom line. Instead of looking at life as a whole, I should look at it through a narrow point of view.
It's like saying that I should look at my feet and not ask questions while I walk off edge of a cliff. After all, I wont be afraid if I don't see where I'm going.
Well, I have news for you all. Whether you choose to see where your life is heading or not is completely arbitrary, life is intrinsically meaningless. There is no value in the work we do or in any other action we make because we all cease to exist. (Caveat: except the value we arbitrarily attribute to these activities.)

If there is no solution, then I can live with that, I don't have much of a choice, but I'm not going to live my life with blinders on just to make myself happy either.