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Why Do You Believe What You Believe?
- Thread starter Runt
- Start date
A typical atheists perspective would be that there was no beginning
That is entirely wrong. There was most definitely a beginning to our universe.
that some sort of matter has existed eternally in the form of matter or energy, changing from form to form, but has always existed nonetheless.
Sorry, haven't heard of that one before.
"Matter is self-existing and not created," a typical atheistic standpoint.
An observation.
At what scientists call a singularity!
That is a misconception. Singularities are thought to exist in black holes and have little to do with Big Bang Theory.
how much hydrogen should be left?
In time, none.
If the cosmos has been here forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago!
We can therefore conclude the cosmos has not been here forever.
This could not be unless we had a beginning!
I'm glad we agree.
A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system, things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics.
Here we have a perfect example of how a concept like thermodynamics can be misunderstood and then misrepresented.
And besides, the universe is not a closed system.
The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is scientifically wrong. The biblical assertion that there was a beginning is scientifically correct.
And, the Big Bang Theory also asserts there was a beginning.
Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause: a creation, but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God.
Ok.
From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.
Then you obviously have not heard about 'virtual particles,' which pop in and out of existence with no cause whatsoever. How's that for a strange new process?
In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong
But the laws of energy/mass concervation have not been violated. The energy from virtual particles is borrowed during their existence and then returned.
All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong... All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong
Irrelevant.
one has to discard known laws and principles of science
Uh-huh - tell your friend to stay in school.
The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and self-existing is also incorrect
Yet, you have no argument whatsover to support that assertion.
The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.
Yet, none has been forthcoming. Any idea when we'll see this evidence?
For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance.
Looking out my window might convince me the world is flat. Is it?
Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle
Although Hoyle came up with some good ideas in his youth, he went wacko later on and was not taken seriously - Davies has always been a crackpot.
The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life.
Actually, it merely states that if the constants in our universe were different, even slightly, our universe might not exist as it is today.
But if the constants were slightly different, the all we would have is a slightly different universe and would never know the difference.
Terrible argument, full of misconceptions and misunderstandings.
That is entirely wrong. There was most definitely a beginning to our universe.
that some sort of matter has existed eternally in the form of matter or energy, changing from form to form, but has always existed nonetheless.
Sorry, haven't heard of that one before.
"Matter is self-existing and not created," a typical atheistic standpoint.
An observation.
At what scientists call a singularity!
That is a misconception. Singularities are thought to exist in black holes and have little to do with Big Bang Theory.
how much hydrogen should be left?
In time, none.
If the cosmos has been here forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago!
We can therefore conclude the cosmos has not been here forever.
This could not be unless we had a beginning!
I'm glad we agree.
A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system, things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics.
Here we have a perfect example of how a concept like thermodynamics can be misunderstood and then misrepresented.
And besides, the universe is not a closed system.
The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is scientifically wrong. The biblical assertion that there was a beginning is scientifically correct.
And, the Big Bang Theory also asserts there was a beginning.
Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause: a creation, but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God.
Ok.
From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.
Then you obviously have not heard about 'virtual particles,' which pop in and out of existence with no cause whatsoever. How's that for a strange new process?
In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong
But the laws of energy/mass concervation have not been violated. The energy from virtual particles is borrowed during their existence and then returned.
All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong... All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong
Irrelevant.
one has to discard known laws and principles of science
Uh-huh - tell your friend to stay in school.
The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and self-existing is also incorrect
Yet, you have no argument whatsover to support that assertion.
The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.
Yet, none has been forthcoming. Any idea when we'll see this evidence?
For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance.
Looking out my window might convince me the world is flat. Is it?
Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle
Although Hoyle came up with some good ideas in his youth, he went wacko later on and was not taken seriously - Davies has always been a crackpot.
The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life.
Actually, it merely states that if the constants in our universe were different, even slightly, our universe might not exist as it is today.
But if the constants were slightly different, the all we would have is a slightly different universe and would never know the difference.
Terrible argument, full of misconceptions and misunderstandings.
Zohaib
New Member
I am sorry for the confusion about Plagiarism. Here is the source I got it from, http://the-simulacra.blogspot.com/2004/07/finally-someone-proves-it.html. It is my friends blog and I don't think he would mind me posting it here. I will take that off because it is my responsibility to check the where it came from. I am sorry for this mistake.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
It's ok, Zohaib, you're new here, and you're forgiven. Just please remember to attribute your quotes from now on, and enjoy the discussion. 
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Iyyob, you're posts have been removed in the past because they were deemed as spam. If you had your PMs turned on, you would have been notified when and why this happened.
I have some wonderful books called The Bible, containing Old and New Testaments; The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ; The Doctrine and Covenants of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; and The Pearl of Great Price. When I post a comment here, you will often see me quoting verses from these holy writings. I am going to quote now some verses from The Book of Mormon that helped me come to believe what I believe. (Note: This is not the only thing I did. I did as God commanded in Malachi 3:10 - "...and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." Test the Lord and keep His commandments and see what blessings He'll pour out in your life.)
"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall receive these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder them in your hearts.
"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not ture; and if ye shall ask witha a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10:3-5; The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ)
I have found truth, light, peace and happiness in following the commandments and asking God for the Holy Ghost to testify of the truthfulness of His existence and Kingdom. The Gospel is real; It is true!!!
"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall receive these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder them in your hearts.
"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not ture; and if ye shall ask witha a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10:3-5; The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ)
I have found truth, light, peace and happiness in following the commandments and asking God for the Holy Ghost to testify of the truthfulness of His existence and Kingdom. The Gospel is real; It is true!!!
Once upon a time, I was an active, confessing and believing Christian.
When I started studying Indology, I thought that Hinduism was quite crazy. Imagine gods walking on earth. And humans having more lives after death. Unbelievable!
Then, rather suddenly, one day I realised that I believed that God (or a part of him) had walked on earth as a human being, and that I was expecting one more life.
So, to be consequent, I had to abandon the Christian faith, and when I finally, at the age of fifty and some years, began to think independently, I could find no proof or even circumstantial evidence for what theist religions taught.
Now, I have arrived at my personal philosophy of life, which has very much in common with Daoism, some features probably borrowed from Buddhism, and a certain influence from Sikhism.
When I started studying Indology, I thought that Hinduism was quite crazy. Imagine gods walking on earth. And humans having more lives after death. Unbelievable!
Then, rather suddenly, one day I realised that I believed that God (or a part of him) had walked on earth as a human being, and that I was expecting one more life.
So, to be consequent, I had to abandon the Christian faith, and when I finally, at the age of fifty and some years, began to think independently, I could find no proof or even circumstantial evidence for what theist religions taught.
Now, I have arrived at my personal philosophy of life, which has very much in common with Daoism, some features probably borrowed from Buddhism, and a certain influence from Sikhism.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
"I have found truth, light, peace and happiness in following the commandments and asking God for the Holy Ghost to testify of the truthfulness of His existence and Kingdom. The Gospel is real; It is true!!!"
I have also found truth, light, peace, and happiness. But it wasn't in following the commandments. It was following the Tao and the natural course of the universe. Recognizing the earth as sacred and beautiful. And following the spirits in this beutiful and sacred world. The spirits are real, the universe is real, the Tao is real.
Now who is right? We both are. Why? Because no one way is the only way. Open your mind.
I have also found truth, light, peace, and happiness. But it wasn't in following the commandments. It was following the Tao and the natural course of the universe. Recognizing the earth as sacred and beautiful. And following the spirits in this beutiful and sacred world. The spirits are real, the universe is real, the Tao is real.
Now who is right? We both are. Why? Because no one way is the only way. Open your mind.