Being a logical person, I have observed various religions. I just don't get the importance of this aspect in anyones life. I see religion as manipulation of ones self and one more thing that ensures the separation of humanity. The main focus of some religions are "If you do not believe in what we believe you are evil". This is in my opinion wrong. Why do you need religion in your life, I certainly don't?
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Why do you need religion?
- Thread starter ProfLogic
- Start date
ProfLogic said:
I believe there are some innate traits of human nature that are to one extent or another satisfied by religions. For instance, and innate impulse to seek intellectual cohesion and meaning might be one of these. Along with an innate tendency to personify things, including nature. I think there are several such traits, and that religion is an outgrowth of them. Because religions can to some extent satisfy or realize these things, they have importance to people.
Do you see that as a necessarily bad thing? Are there any instances in which the manipulation of ones self is worthwhile or good for someone? People are, after all, often seeking to manipulate themselves.
I would agree with you, however, that some religions, or at least some interpretations of some religions, tend to alienate people from their selves. If "be true to yourself" is taken as a moral imperative, then those interpretations would seem to be of questionable morality.
Some religions, especially Middle Eastern ones, do seem to divide the world between believers and non-believers, between us and them.
See above.
Religions can be great facilitators. For instance, the Christian imperative to love ones neighbor has probably encouraged countless people to do just that.
Also, there is some useful wisdom to be found in nearly all religions.
Last, as has been said, religion seems to satisfy or realize certain innate predispositions. It's in part a manifestation of basic human nature.
Feathers in Hair
World's Tallest Hobbit
I don't need religion in my life. At this point in my life, I prefer to have it, though, as it provides a kind of narration for what I would (hopefully) still believe if there weren't any religion in the world. Some aspects of it, though, help me to get through deep-seated problems in my own upbringing. (For example, being told over and over that I would be a failure, that intelligent women shouldn't speak their mind in order to avert driving off everyone, and that one shouldn't stand up for a cause unless everyone else agreed with it, too.)
Your adeptness at rabble rousing has been noted (by myself) time and again on this Forum. Inciting the rabble to rouse itself is certainly not the mark of a failure, unfortunately for those of us who wish to preserve some decorum and dignity on the Forum.Her Royal Feathers Of the Dancing Eyes said:
More seriously, it is outrageous that anyone would tell someone with your fine qualities and virtues she'd be a failure.
Flaming Feather Of Fire said:
When intelligence people speak their mind, in my experience, they only drive off fools with any consistency. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
Besides which, there are men for whom intelligence in a woman is a powerful aphrodesiac. Look for men whose mothers are intelligent. Chances are good they themselves are attracted to intelligent women.
The best time to stand up for a cause, IMO, is when it needs someone to stand up for it. By the time everyone is onboard, the cause doesn't need another voice.Her Ladyship Of The Laughing Goddess said:
So, to the important question, precisely how does your current religion counter act the three points you mention?
SoliDeoGloria
Active Member
Well, I'll be the first to state, at the risk of sounding weak minded, etc., that I absolutely need religion in my life. I am using the term religion to satisfy the OP's predisposition though. Ofcourse, I don't see it as needing religion as much as needing a relationship with God.
Without "religion", from a logical perspective, all I see life is as being a temporal existence involving a whole lot of stress due to personal secular advancement. Without "religion", I probably would've given up on life altogether a long time ago. Is there more to "religion" than this? Ofcourse there is.
With how losely the term "manipulation" can correctly be used this arguement sets itself up against itself. Should we take the extreme logical conclusion of this argument and not teach anybody anything from birth? Would that not be manipulation by definition? Do you know where the idea of "Do what thou wilst, make it the whole of your law" originated? If you did you might realize the parallels you are making to certain "religions".
Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria
Without "religion", from a logical perspective, all I see life is as being a temporal existence involving a whole lot of stress due to personal secular advancement. Without "religion", I probably would've given up on life altogether a long time ago. Is there more to "religion" than this? Ofcourse there is.
proflogic said:
With how losely the term "manipulation" can correctly be used this arguement sets itself up against itself. Should we take the extreme logical conclusion of this argument and not teach anybody anything from birth? Would that not be manipulation by definition? Do you know where the idea of "Do what thou wilst, make it the whole of your law" originated? If you did you might realize the parallels you are making to certain "religions".
Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Why, are you seeking unity in humanity? You religious zealot you....ProfLogic said:
Not my religion.ProfLogic said:
Believing in it, doesn't gurantee that you won't commit some evil act. Both the religious and non-religious can do this.
Need? You don't.ProfLogic said:
Now X percent of oxygen, I certainly do need.
MdmSzdWhtGuy
Well-Known Member
Well I, personally could, and am, doing without it. But I think for many it brings them a sense of comfort and well-being, which, apparently is worth giving up several hours per week and 10% of their gross income.
I think ever since hominids became intelligent enough to realize the inevitibility of their own demise, they have been trying to come up with a way to avoid this psychologically damaging knowledge, and by convincing one's self that you will continue to live on another plane of existence after your Earthly demise, then you can take away a lot of the stress that the knowledge of your own impending death entails.
Add to the above, the fact that prior to science man had no real way of knowng how many of the natural phenomenon that effect his daily life occur, and you end up with Poseiden controlling the crazy ocean weather, Zeuss throwing lightning bolts down from Mt. Olympus, and the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God Yah-weh destroying New Orleans with a hurricane for being so immoral (I have heard this last one from more than one source, btw.)
So, there ya go. I don't need it, but realize that many others do, and after years of studying the phenomenon, I have listed above the most likely, IMO, reasons why religious people feel the need to have their particular religion in their life.
B.
I think ever since hominids became intelligent enough to realize the inevitibility of their own demise, they have been trying to come up with a way to avoid this psychologically damaging knowledge, and by convincing one's self that you will continue to live on another plane of existence after your Earthly demise, then you can take away a lot of the stress that the knowledge of your own impending death entails.
Add to the above, the fact that prior to science man had no real way of knowng how many of the natural phenomenon that effect his daily life occur, and you end up with Poseiden controlling the crazy ocean weather, Zeuss throwing lightning bolts down from Mt. Olympus, and the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God Yah-weh destroying New Orleans with a hurricane for being so immoral (I have heard this last one from more than one source, btw.)
So, there ya go. I don't need it, but realize that many others do, and after years of studying the phenomenon, I have listed above the most likely, IMO, reasons why religious people feel the need to have their particular religion in their life.
B.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Is the importance of a sense of community to the human animal really that hard to understand?ProfLogic said:
I do not believe my religion does this, in fact we seek to help unite humanity in peace and love.
Mine makes no such claim or statement, in fact we go out of our way to say the opposite: that all people are entitled to make their own search for truth and meaning, and practice the religion that is right for them. Probably our most basic belief is a belief in an individual's freedom of belief.
Because I'm a social animal. I need community. I need people (dammit!). The religious community I have chosen to be a part of fulfills me in a way and gives me opportunites that being alone does not. Could I do these things in a secular community? Sure, but I have chosen this one because I love it's values and beliefs and it's people. If that makes me a weak-minded simpleton, so be it.
Feathers in Hair
World's Tallest Hobbit
*hugs Phil through the thread, since she's used up all her frubals at the moment* Have I mentioned lately how lovely a person you are?
An excellent question!
The medititations that are a part of my path have helped me to work through the issues I had with the person that told me that I would be worthless. (For example, in realizing that just this person's idea of being anything other than a failure would've involved marrying a doctor, and their own opinion of themselves as without worth, I've begun to understand that my own measurement of success is different from theirs, and that I'm unlikely to be considered anything other than a failure by them, no matter what I do and that it's best to simply forgive them for that and move on.)
I think that (for me, at least), percieving Diety as having primarily 'feminine' aspects (not that traits like empathy, kindness, tolerance, compassion and such are in any way more feminine than male- just that they're more often associated with them) makes it much harder for one to stay a wallflower. At a very conservative church I attended in the south, at potluck dinners, the parents would allow the boys and young men to clamber to the table and gather as much food as they want. The daughters had to wait with their parents, and if they tried lining up first with the boys, then the quality of their character would be whispered about. If one sees oneself as the descendant of the woman who introduced sin into humanity, that's kind of a natural attitude to take. (I'm not saying that all Christians believe this, just that this was the perspective that this church took.) On the other hand, if one percieves oneself and teaches their daughters to percieve themselves as being a daughter of a goddess, a priestess, and (sometimes) a goddess in their own right, I think that a lot of those boys would have been joined by the girls, and that they or their families wouldn't care if there was whispering. That's kind of how I view the empowering spirit of my path, that I no longer think it's necessary to hide my nature simply because it might startle others.
I find the final one inherent in my spirituality, though I'm not sure I'm able to explain why. I think part of it is the example of dieties like Kwan Yin, or certain animals- treat everything like it has value, because it does. This doesn't mean that one has to bow down to everything, though. If one sees that someone is treating another as if they aren't worthwhile, I think that it's part of my duty to stand up to them. Terry Pratchett's Discworld series tends to mention this concept repeatedly, usually in the form of "Someone has to give a voice to those that have none." While I won't go against my nature and be insulting to the other person while I'm giving somone else a voice, I see it as my sacred duty to be that someone.
Sunstone said:
An excellent question!
The medititations that are a part of my path have helped me to work through the issues I had with the person that told me that I would be worthless. (For example, in realizing that just this person's idea of being anything other than a failure would've involved marrying a doctor, and their own opinion of themselves as without worth, I've begun to understand that my own measurement of success is different from theirs, and that I'm unlikely to be considered anything other than a failure by them, no matter what I do and that it's best to simply forgive them for that and move on.)
I think that (for me, at least), percieving Diety as having primarily 'feminine' aspects (not that traits like empathy, kindness, tolerance, compassion and such are in any way more feminine than male- just that they're more often associated with them) makes it much harder for one to stay a wallflower. At a very conservative church I attended in the south, at potluck dinners, the parents would allow the boys and young men to clamber to the table and gather as much food as they want. The daughters had to wait with their parents, and if they tried lining up first with the boys, then the quality of their character would be whispered about. If one sees oneself as the descendant of the woman who introduced sin into humanity, that's kind of a natural attitude to take. (I'm not saying that all Christians believe this, just that this was the perspective that this church took.) On the other hand, if one percieves oneself and teaches their daughters to percieve themselves as being a daughter of a goddess, a priestess, and (sometimes) a goddess in their own right, I think that a lot of those boys would have been joined by the girls, and that they or their families wouldn't care if there was whispering. That's kind of how I view the empowering spirit of my path, that I no longer think it's necessary to hide my nature simply because it might startle others.
I find the final one inherent in my spirituality, though I'm not sure I'm able to explain why. I think part of it is the example of dieties like Kwan Yin, or certain animals- treat everything like it has value, because it does. This doesn't mean that one has to bow down to everything, though. If one sees that someone is treating another as if they aren't worthwhile, I think that it's part of my duty to stand up to them. Terry Pratchett's Discworld series tends to mention this concept repeatedly, usually in the form of "Someone has to give a voice to those that have none." While I won't go against my nature and be insulting to the other person while I'm giving somone else a voice, I see it as my sacred duty to be that someone.
Abram
Abraham
Being a logical person you should see the fact that there is good and evil out there. So lets no deny that bad does excised. So if we know its real and we can feel, see and know its there and that it only leads to hurt, tears and pain then why would one want to travel this path. So if "religion" is a way to become "good" why not try to conform to it? If religion can teach this why not read about and want to do better for your self?ProfLogic said:
Yes the main focus from some religions is that if there right and you don't belive you are evil. I agree to this to a point. I think everyone is evil (inc. me) and buy realizing this and coming to a savior for forgiveness it can shed myself from the burden that keeps me sinning. Getting away from the thought "you can't quit doing this evil, you'll just do it again" So why bother to quit?
Keep in mind its not always the religion its self telling you your evil, its you knowing what they believe and choosing not to believe. Its your guilt that is telling you your wrong, God intended it that way, so you could figure out the truth just by listening to what you feel. So yes I think God made it very clear there is one way to him and that person to me is Jesus. Others have other gods and God will judge all with perfect judgement and love, he wants to love us. But if you turn a cheek to all of God in every fashion he reviles himself to you(any religion), then if one day your standing in front of him and you must be accountable for your life here, what do you say? You didnt provide the right religion for me?
Its just a way to do good, become better, something to believe in, and gives life after death. I liked the idea so I joined right up!
Karl R
Active Member
Why do you consider this to be a bad thing?ProfLogic said:
Talk to someone who attends AA meetings. AA members have come up with numerous methods of self-manipulation (including religion) to help them conquer their adictions.
Religion encourages people to seek justice instead of revenge, it encourages people to give to the poor, it encourages them to be honest....
If people choose to manipulate themselves into acting in this manner, why would anyone want to stand in the way?
I'm sure christianity is one of the religions you believe does this.ProfLogic said:
Christianity tells us to love others. Christianity tells us to be peacemakers. Christianity tells us to visit those who are sick and alone.
Humans separate themselves. Look at high schools students: they form cliques and gangs. They don't do it for religious reasons. Some people choose to exclude others along religious lines, but religion doesn't tell them to do it. Most religions explicitly encourage people to reach beyond those boundaries and include others.
On a pragmatic level, religions have to divide into smaller groups. There's a church in Houston with 20,000 members, and anyone is welcome. But in order to get to know people well, you need to get involved in a small group at that church. The church I attend has 700 members, and anyone is welcome. But in order to get to know people well, you still probably need to get involved with a small group at my church.
There's a small minority of christian sects and muslim sects who believe this. Why condemn all religions based on those?ProfLogic said:
Mainstream (conservative protestant) christianity would say that you're going to hell if you don't believe what they believe. But the doctrine specifically states that nobody is perfect enough to make it into heaven on their own. Believers get into heaven despite this shortcoming, non-believers don't.
This belief may be inaccurate. But nobody is saying that non-belief is evil. Your actions may be evil, but that's an entirely separate matter.
Why do people need cars in their life? I don't.ProfLogic said:
Why do people need cell phones in their life? I don't.
Why do people need wristwatches in their life? I don't.
Should I come here and criticize everyone who uses (or needs) cars, cell phones, and wristwatches?
People live their lives differently. I am aware that religious beliefs are optional. I find them to be useful.
I heard it from several sources too, but I wasn't dumb enough to believe it.MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Why do you believe that this is somehow representative of mainstream religious beliefs?
the yantra of the greatest sign is why religions are here on earth and explains also as in all religions that God has put you feet on this earth and universe as a way of helping you reach and be one with Him or go to heaven, which ever you want.
Did you know that God is everything, please tell me. God is letters, good or bad right here on this computer screen.
Did you know that God is everything, please tell me. God is letters, good or bad right here on this computer screen.
Booko
Deviled Hen
ProfLogic said:
Since the point of my religion is to propagate the idea that humanity is one, I'm not sure how that does anything to ensure the separation of humanity. And the idea that "if you don't believe in what we believe you are evil" is the antithesis of what my religion stands for, so I don't much see how that applies either.
I don't know that I so much need religion in my life as I happen to believe it to be true. If you think something is true, do you keep it as part of your life?
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
ProfLogic said:
Would you agree that there is a sort of puzzle or mystery in life?
Where did this universe come from?
Before going into the logic of why people need religion, I suggest an earlier step would be where did our universe come from? and does it have a Creator?
Curiosity in finding out the answer to these two questions leads to scientific research and philosophy/religious studies.
For those who believe that a Creator does indeed exist, that He loves them, and that He wants what is best for them, they simply follow His Path, and they know that having created us He knows what is good for us and what isn't.
Following His Path also helps us get closer to Him in love.
Hope that makes sense.
All the best.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
To me, this question is like asking, "Why do you need literature or music or nature or physical activity or anything else in your life?" All of these things add a dimension to my life that I would miss if it were not present. I don't "need" religion in order to survive, but it makes my life more meaningful. It provides me with a sense of who I am and what I am striving to become. Maybe I read your question wrong, but it kind of sounded to me as if you were implying that people who need religion are somehow weaker or less intelligent than those who don't. I find that kind of offensive. If you don't need religion or any of the other things I mentioned in your life, that's fine. But it certainly isn't a mark of superiority. If that's not what you were getting at, I apology.