Why does it matter what religion you follow if you do no harm?

[LuisDantas]

Apples and oranges because you are comparing arbitrary matters of human social policy to millions of years of biological evolution. The universe doesn't care about human rights.

True, but so disconnected to the matter that I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Biological evolution is a reality, and the universe does not care about human rights, true.

We still have a duty nevertheless.

Why do you think humanity is so special?

The way I see it, you see humanity as more special than I do.

Animal life exists by destroying and consuming other life. The whole idea that nature is 'too harsh' and needs to be fixed is quite egocentric on our part don't you think?

If I had such an idea, I guess it would be.

Harm is a necessity for life to exist on a base biological level.

Uh? Are you talking about the food chain still? People can and do live without harming animals, albeit not in great numbers so far.

Why do you want so badly to claim that it is not possible, when the facts show otherwise?

My whole point on this line of dialogue, I suppose, is to question this invisible moral force so many take for granted.

It is not invisible. It is a consequence of the ecological damage and of the sheet mathematical reality of irresponsible growth. Morals are demanded by the limitations of physical reality, not by any invisible force.

Animals don't have elaborated morals because they don't have much of a way of anticipating the consequences of their acts, and can't therefore allow for that. Such is not the case with humans.

Morality is the opinion of those with the power to enforce it.

According to some particularly cynical sources, anyway. But there is no need to settle for such poor sources.

Might , for all intents and purposes, has always been right. The victors always write the history, and force is inevitably the catalyst to invoke the will of those with power.

That is nonsense, even if not too far from the historical reality so far.

Given this, to demonize 'harm' is quite naive Why shouldn't we eat meat?

Because it is cruel to animals, economically and ecologically unsound, and not too healthy to boot.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

...

Sigh.
To start, I heartily disagree with pretty much everything you said. It's clear you are an idealist, and far be it from me to take the pie out of your sky. Me, I'm a realist and prefer to deal in the 'what is' rather than 'should be's' . I happen to like the way things are.

But with that said I feel no desire to get on a merry go round with you and hear your version of how things 'should be', so lets just get back to the topic at hand.

My original contention was that the 'if you do no harm' modifier to the statement 'what does it matter what religion you follow?' is being largely overlooked. And frankly, this pop-ideology of lambs sleeping with lions and world peace and harmony is just so much self deceptive tripe. Harming others is sometimes necessary,and traditionally 'religion' has been one of the primary vehicles to achieve these ends.

 

[Smokeless Indica]

Thanks for replies.


And I guess I should ask.. what does it matter to god?

I don't follow any religion and I'm not even sure if there is a god/s
I don't think it matters. As long as you have good morals i.e. not stealing, raping, molesting, murdering, I'm sure there's others but I can't really think of any right now. Those are just the ones that are most important to me.
I don't think you should have to worship anyone or anything to get into heaven (if there is one.) I just think you need to live a good life and you'll get all the benifits of the afterlife (If there is one.)

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Odion- "I do not care if my neighbor worships many gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket or breaks my leg."- Thomas Jefferson

 

[LuisDantas]

My original contention was that the 'if you do no harm' modifier to the statement 'what does it matter what religion you follow?' is being largely overlooked. And frankly, this pop-ideology of lambs sleeping with lions and world peace and harmony is just so much self deceptive tripe. Harming others is sometimes necessary,and traditionally 'religion' has been one of the primary vehicles to achieve these ends.

Well, it turns out that this is precisely the root of your mistake. Harm can and should be avoided.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Harm can and should be avoided.

LOL

Like I said, not interested in your particular vision of how things 'should be'. I thought I made that clear. I operate in reality, and despite the protests and metaphysical writhing and squirming of a million 'idealists' just like yourself, things will continue to operate according to reality.

 

[Luminous]

"Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty."
Stanislaw J. Lec

and you will find that the mountain is most guilty for having a slope. if those snowflakes were not certered on the mountain and their foundation they would never have caused such havok. on the otherhand, you can blame gravity: and the fundamental aspect of everything to be subject to it. also, you can blame that one snowflake that if it had acted differently the avalanch would not have happened.
snowflake = people
mountain = religion
gravity = supervising force

 

[LuisDantas]

LOL

Like I said, not interested in your particular vision of how things 'should be'. I thought I made that clear. I operate in reality, and despite the protests and metaphysical writhing and squirming of a million 'idealists' just like yourself, things will continue to operate according to reality.

Sure.

You're still wrong, though. That is the point that I want to make perfectly clear.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

No, I'm not.

See, I can make pointless one line arguments too. Isn't this fun?

 

[Breathe]

Odion- "I do not care if my neighbor worships many gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket or breaks my leg."- Thomas Jefferson

Haha, that's cute

 

[EverChanging]

Might has always been right, give me a break....If every human lived according to an amoral philosophy with no regard for reducing harm, the planet could not go on existing with life, and indeed, it might not go on existing with life for much longer if humans are not ecologically, environmentally, and thus morally responsible.

Even non-human animals exhibit moral behavior.

You might have a different opinion if and when you are suddenly at the mercy of an indifferent human society or race, when human behavior threatening the existence of the planet begins to affect the quality or possibility of your life continuing.

Morals are necessary for humans to exist in societies, and increasingly, to sustain life on this planet. To throw them out, especially on a wide scale, would be the very height of stupidity for all our sakes'.

 

[blackout]

People harm each other,
and themSelves
in ways they do not/cannot BEGIN to understand.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

>Why does it matter what religion you follow if you do no harm?

For the simple reason that there's more to true religion than merely "doing no harm!"

Peace,

Bruce

 

[DarkSun]

Yes, it matters very much to the true God how he is worshiped

Here are only a few reasons why (there are many more.)

Judg. 10:6, 7: “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.” (If a person worships any thing or any person other than the true God, the Creator of heaven and earth, it is evident that his form of worship is not acceptable to Jehovah.)

Mark 7:6, 7: “He [Jesus] said to them [the Jewish Pharisees and scribes]: ‘Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, as it is written, “This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.”’” (Regardless of whom a group profess to worship, if they hold to doctrines of men instead of the inspired Word of God, their worship is in vain.)

Rom. 10:2, 3: “I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.” (People may have God’s written Word but lack accurate knowledge of what it contains, because they have not been taught properly. They may feel that they are zealous for God, but they may not be doing what he requires.

False religion is responsible for the deaths of millions of innocents in bloody wars, inquisitions, and genocides carried out by religious people, most times egged on by their religious leaders. .​

I call Poe.

 

[DarkSun]

Apples and oranges because you are comparing arbitrary matters of human social policy to millions of years of biological evolution. The universe doesn't care about human rights.

Why do you think humanity is so special? Animal life exists by destroying and consuming other life. The whole idea that nature is 'too harsh' and needs to be fixed is quite egocentric on our part don't you think? Harm is a necessity for life to exist on a base biological level.

My whole point on this line of dialogue, I suppose, is to question this invisible moral force so many take for granted. Morality is the opinion of those with the power to enforce it. Might , for all intents and purposes, has always been right. The victors always write the history, and force is inevitably the catalyst to invoke the will of those with power.

Given this, to demonize 'harm' is quite naive Why shouldn't we eat meat?

Because you wouldn't want to be eaten, yourself, so why do it to someone else?
By the way, I mean no offense by this, but I personally find this kind of philosophy very disturbing.
The universe being hostile and random is no reason for us to be.

LOL

Like I said, not interested in your particular vision of how things 'should be'. I thought I made that clear. I operate in reality, and despite the protests and metaphysical writhing and squirming of a million 'idealists' just like yourself, things will continue to operate according to reality.

Reality is subjective. I disagree that pure cynicism always provides the best description of reality, but maybe that's just me.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Might has always been right, give me a break....If every human lived according to an amoral philosophy with no regard for reducing harm, the planet could not go on existing with life, and indeed, it might not go on existing with life for much longer if humans are not ecologically, environmentally, and thus morally responsible.

Even non-human animals exhibit moral behavior.

You might have a different opinion if and when you are suddenly at the mercy of an indifferent human society or race, when human behavior threatening the existence of the planet begins to affect the quality or possibility of your life continuing.

Morals are necessary for humans to exist in societies, and increasingly, to sustain life on this planet. To throw them out, especially on a wide scale, would be the very height of stupidity for all our sakes'.

Who said anything about throwing out 'morality'? The herd needs a code of conduct if it is to be controlled. Just don't fool yourself into thinking these arbitrary social boundaries exist in any objective way..they don't. Those with power are free to use it how they see fit, and will to power of one often leads to the detriment of another. That's life, sunshine.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Because you wouldn't want to be eaten, yourself, so why do it to someone else?

Maybe I'm hungry? I guess it depends on the context. I agree that the golden rule makes for a good social policy, but it is quickly thrown out when it becomes inconvenient.

By the way, I mean no offense by this, but I personally find this kind of philosophy very disturbing.
The universe being hostile and random is no reason for us to be.

I don't think the universe is random at all, and neither was I advocating randomness insofar as human behaviour is concerned. It's anything but random. In fact, it follows very predictable patterns that have been repeating since known history has been recorded, at the very least. As far as hostility goes, it has always been the most effective way of getting results. You can hate it, decry it, protest it, and ceaselessly advocate it's opposite, but none of that will change the reality of the situation. Animals will continue to eat other animals, as will we, both literally and metaphorically, as we are the most vicious animal of all.

Reality is subjective. I disagree that pure cynicism always provides the best description of reality, but maybe that's just me.

Reality isn't subjective. Perception is subjective. If 100 people with completely different world views and opinions about what is real were to walk off a cliff, you would still be left with 100 splattered corpses. The universe just doesn't care what you think.

 

[EverChanging]

Who said anything about throwing out 'morality'? The herd needs a code of conduct if it is to be controlled. Just don't fool yourself into thinking these arbitrary social boundaries exist in any objective way..they don't. Those with power are free to use it how they see fit, and will to power of one often leads to the detriment of another. That's life, sunshine.

I never said life is free of harm or pain or suffering, but "might makes right" is a pitiful philosophy. We cannot exist without some type of morality, and it is increasingly important on a global scale. Life on this planet will not exist much longer without morality, and that includes environmental ethics. We are all interconnected.

Furthermore, "is" does not indicate "ought." So the universe is indifferent. That doesn't mean we should be. It is our indifference that has led to environmental perils and the threat to all of our lives.

Selfishisness is a part of life and proper within balance and context, but pure selfishness doesn't work. We are interconnected whether or not we like it. We can't serve our own interests, usually, outside of society, and that requires morals. And we cannot sustain our existence within the interconnected web of life without morals.

 

[Beta]

Thanks for replies.


And I guess I should ask.. what does it matter to god?

What most fail to realise is that hurting others is also a spiritual matter and not just a physical thing between humans which would fulfill the second commandment.
You ask _ what does it matter to God ?
The first Commandment is to love God and that means doing His Will. But since the natural carnal man is enmity against God that man can not do God's Will (Rom.8v7) - consequently does not love God and breaks the first and most important Commandment - thus hurting God our Creator. Being enemies of God ultimately hurts ourselves because we break the circle of true Love that comes only from God.
All the pain and human suffering in the world is because of our own spiritual short-sightedness .

 

[*Anne*]

Why does it matter what religion you follow if you do no harm?

And I guess I should ask.. what does it matter to god?

In my eyes, it does not matter. And if God is the loving, merciful god everyone says he is, then it doesn't matter to him either.