Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

[Serenity7855]

Thanks for the link.

Is God omnipotent ?

God knows all that can be known. He can do all that can be done. Wikipedia defines omniscient as the capacity to know everything that there is to know. In Latin, omnis means "all" and sciens means "knowing". What is misunderstood by atheists and theists alike is that there is limits to knowing everything and constraints in being able to do anything. For example, If God dwells in the presence of imperfection he will become contaminated with that imperfection and cease to be God, so he cannot be in the presents of sinners. If he intervenes in the dealings of mankind he will destroy the entire plan of Salvation, so He cannot do that either. God can never absolutely know what choice you will make. He may well have a very good idea, however, He cannot know what you yourself does not yet know. Many atheists use this as an argument for His existence being illogical. They manipulate the ambiguity of the definition of the word "omni"

 

[Koldo]

God knows all that can be known. He can do all that can be done. Wikipedia defines omniscient as the capacity to know everything that there is to know. In Latin, omnis means "all" and sciens means "knowing". What is misunderstood by atheists and theists alike is that there is limits to knowing everything and constraints in being able to do anything. For example, If God dwells in the presence of imperfection he will become contaminated with that imperfection and cease to be God, so he cannot be in the presents of sinners. If he intervenes in the dealings of mankind he will destroy the entire plan of Salvation, so He cannot do that either. God can never absolutely know what choice you will make. He may well have a very good idea, however, He cannot know what you yourself does not yet know. Many atheists use this as an argument for His existence being illogical. They manipulate the ambiguity of the definition of the word "omni"

Was it possible for God to make humans achieve the utmost well-being without this plan of salvation ?

 

[Serenity7855]

We have free will, to do good or evil, but free will under law (i.e. Karma / Cause and Effect)

Why do people suffer? Could be that it is an issue of Karma. Karma is an entirely self-regulating law. It is cause and effect, we reap what we sow ... Perfect justice.
And new karma is being created all the time remember.

Could be that there is some specific lesson they need to learn.
Trials and tribulations are an essential part of spiritual evolution.

When we are on the Other Side and can see the bigger picture, we will understand the what and the why.

What will be, will be and there is not a lot we can do about it. What we are in total charge of however is how we react.

I've had my share of sorrow and suffering, and I certainly didn't appreciate it at the time and I certainly wouldn't like to go through it all again! but, with the benefit of hindsight, I am profoundly grateful for the experiences, for from them I learnt compassion, empathy and understanding.

I totally agree with everything that you have said. I am unable to critique it in anyway.

When you say that "What will be, will be and there is not a lot we can do about it." it reminds me of a man that had jumped from one of the twin towers. You might imagine that he would be kicking and screaming at the knowledge of his fate, however, from jumping to hitting the floor he fell almost motionless, back first, and was totally relaxed and seemingly unconcerned at his inevitable fate, as though he was also thinking "What will be, will be and there is not a lot I can do about it."

I am a great believer in cause and effect. I have witnessed it many, many times, both in myself and others. It seems like a universal law that always plays itself out. As you have said, it is not always pleasant, however, it is always something that will benefit you in the long term, even if just to say "No" the next time. It even acts as evidence for Gods existence when we consider the Big Bang. Kalams Cosmological Argument states

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
2. The universe began to exist;
   Therefore:
3. The universe has a cause.

What caused the universe to come into existence. The logical answer has to be God.

 

[Serenity7855]

Was it possible for God to make humans achieve the utmost well-being without this plan of salvation ?

Interesting question because you have said "Was it possible for God to make humans achieve the utmost well-being" What makes it interesting is that you used the word make. You see, Satan also put forward a plan to God. That was to make everyone comply to what was needed to return to God so that not a soul would be lost, however, he wanted the Glory and recognition for it thus becoming God. Naturally God rejected his plan and Satan was cast out of heaven.

To answer your question, I honestly do not know, however, I would speculate that He would have used the very best plan available to Him for all of us.

 

[EtuMalku]

You have immediately shown us that you are bias and bigoted by calling 2.2 billion Christians delusional because you don't see and feel what they do

True . . . I am not a fan of Abrahamic faith

On the contrary, it is the minority atheists who have managed to stop that by removing it from our society in their attempt to remove religion from the earth

Atheists are IMO as guilty of Indoctrination as Theists are

What progress do you speak of? The advancement of science? Take an objective look at what science has cost us

Progress as in intellectual progress

How would you know that. You are clearly an atheist.

You're clarity is that of mud . . .

Indoctrinations of righteous principles is a good thing. Maybe then our kids would help old ladies carry their shopping home instead of mugging them and beating them.

What you consider 'righteous' may not be considered so by others, morality / ethics is a subjective matter not dogmatic. Let the children be children, allow and enable them to make up their own minds about philosophy, religion, spirituality

Since when do we here of Abrahamic Terrorists? Come on, you are obviously harbouring some kind of grudge against Christianity so you try to demonise it.

I suppose you haven't heard of the Crusades, the underground Judaic terrorist groups Irgun and Lehi, or for that matter ISIS / ISIL / Al-Qaeda? What do you, live under a rock? I have no 'grudge' against Christianity, I disagree with it as I do the Abrahamic faiths in general. It is what's wrong with the world IMO.

 

[Koldo]

Interesting question because you have said "Was it possible for God to make humans achieve the utmost well-being" What makes it interesting is that you used the word make. You see, Satan also put forward a plan to God. That was to make everyone comply to what was needed to return to God so that not a soul would be lost, however, he wanted the Glory and recognition for it thus becoming God. Naturally God rejected his plan and Satan was cast out of heaven.

To answer your question, I honestly do not know, however, I would speculate that He would have used the very best plan available to Him for all of us.

There are multiple ways to understand the nature of God. Just a single word like 'omnipotence' can branch out in different ways. So I was trying to understand where you are coming from.

When people ask why God doesn't intervene in human suffering ( or why it exists in the first place ) they assume that God could do something about it. If God didn't use the best plan available to him, then the question would remain as to why. However, If he did then that entails that it is beyond God's power to do anything more than what he is already doing about this matter. To be more on point, He can't, for example, make humans achieve the utmost well-being while at the same time prevent every single human from becoming ( or being ) an amputee during this life.

Many theists aren't happy nor satisfied with this statement though.

 

[Serenity7855]

There are multiple ways to understand the nature of God. Just a single word like 'omnipotence' can branch out in different ways. So I was trying to understand where you are coming from.

When people ask why God doesn't intervene in human suffering ( or why it exists in the first place ) they assume that God could do something about it. If God didn't use the best plan available to him, then the question would remain as to why. However, If he did then that entails that it is beyond God's power to do anything more than what he is already doing about this matter. To be more on point, He can't, for example, make humans achieve the utmost well-being while at the same time prevent every single human from becoming ( or being ) an amputee during this life.

I totally and unreservedly agree. In my opinion, God has to sit back and watch it all play itself out, there is nothing t hat he can do about suffering that is down to us and the choices we make. That was what we agreed to. We are not totally alone though. We have the scriptures that guides and directs us and we also have the Holy Ghost to help us.

The Holy Ghost is pretty powerful. Many christians believe that he speaks to us as an individual but scriptures tell us that he, himself, is an individual spirit that can only be in one place at a time. Like the sun's warmth that we all feel is like his influence that we can all feel, and that fills the immensity of space. Anything that you need to know can be found by tapping into the knowledge bank that fill the space in which we move and live. It is everywhere and anybody can tap into it if they tick all the right boxes. That is what is meant in scripture "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Many theists aren't happy nor satisfied with this statement though.

No, I bet. Many people forget about the signs of the times and the things we need to watch for. One such sign is the coming apostasy, the great falling away of religions from the true teachings of God. Sadly, many churches have followed the example of men and have succumbed to their ways. The only sure and true way to know the will of God is to ask Him yourself. You run the risk of receiving false doctrine when listening to men.

I am sure that there are Many theists who aren't happy nor satisfied with this statement, but that does not surprise me in the slightest. It has been prophesied and now the prophecy is coming to past. Your statement is sound and an exactitude of the way things are and not the way man interprets it to be.[/QUOTE]

 

[Serenity7855]

True . . . I am not a fan of Abrahamic faith
Atheists are IMO as guilty of Indoctrination as Theists are

Progress as in intellectual progress

Yes, I agree

You're clarity is that of mud . . .

Unnecessary. OK

What you consider 'righteous' may not be considered so by others, morality / ethics is a subjective matter not dogmatic. Let the children be children, allow and enable them to make up their own minds about philosophy, religion, spirituality

Morality is not compromisable. It will always be wrong to kill someone. That should be my morality and the morality of the atheist. Morals are not owned by theists. We are all expected to act in a responsible and honest manner.

I am all for the children being allowed to be children, so why are they being taught that homosexuality is natural and normal and just another lifestyle choice. Even if it were true, why are they being taught things that they are too young to fully understand. Is it to normalise homosexuality from a young age so as to insure that the next generation is desensitized to it?

I have six children who were raised in a Abrahamic religious home. They are all grown up now and only two remain active Christians. I never forced them to go to church or indoctrinated them with my beliefs. They choose for themselves. You tar all those who are members of the Abrahamic religions with the same brush.

I suppose you haven't heard of the Crusades, the underground Judaic terrorist groups Irgun and Lehi, or for that matter ISIS / ISIL / Al-Qaeda? What do you, live under a rock? I have no 'grudge' against Christianity, I disagree with it as I do the Abrahamic faiths in general. It is what's wrong with the world IMO.

What is wrong with the world is a lack of Christian values. Not mens interpretations of those values by the straight forward, simplistic nature of those values. We need to instill them back into society so that we become more accountable for our behaviour. The moral decline of our society is a result of atheists finding a voice in the optimal place, the media. That is where it started and will be almost impossible to rectify.

 

[Agondonter]

What is wrong with the world is a lack of Christian values. Not mens interpretations of those values by the straight forward, simplistic nature of those values. We need to instill them back into society so that we become more accountable for our behaviour. The moral decline of our society is a result of atheists finding a voice in the optimal place, the media. That is where it started and will be almost impossible to rectify.

There is sufficient proof to show in a court of law that secularism is an ideal that, once having found a voice, will impose its values (or lack thereof) in order to attain its goals; that no sooner does it free man from the domination of the institutionalized church than it sells him into slavish bondage to the totalitarian state.

 

[Serenity7855]

There is sufficient proof to show in a court of law that secularism is an ideal that, once having found a voice, will impose its values (or lack thereof) in order to attain its goals; that no sooner does it free man from the domination of the institutionalized church than it sells him into slavish bondage to the totalitarian state.

I am not sure whether you agree with me or disagree. I believe that you are saying that secularism is a bad thing, which, of course, I would very much agree with, and that as soon as it achieves it's goals it will make us do whatever it chooses. A totalitarian state. Only, I think that we are just about there, well at least in the UK anyway.

It is not what you wrote or how you wrote it that makes me ask you to clarify it, no it is my own ignorance that has caused me to do that.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I ask this every time someone posts about the allowance of suffering; "What wrong with suffering?" I've yet to receive a coherent answer.

 

[Agondonter]

I am not sure whether you agree with me or disagree. I believe that you are saying that secularism is a bad thing, which, of course, I would very much agree with, and that as soon as it achieves it's goals it will make us do whatever it chooses. A totalitarian state. Only, I think that we are just about there, well at least in the UK anyway.

It is not what you wrote or how you wrote it that makes me ask you to clarify it, no it is my own ignorance that has caused me to do that.

I was agreeing with you.

 

[Serenity7855]

I was agreeing with you.

Thank you. I could not have put it so eloquently as you have.

 

[Serenity7855]

I ask this every time someone posts about the allowance of suffering; "What wrong with suffering?" I've yet to receive a coherent answer.

Surely it depends on the person who is suffering. A pacifist or a masochist. I like to think that I am a pacifist so, although I know that we all have to suffer and endure it, I don't want to.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Surely it depends on the person who is suffering. A pacifist or a masochist. I like to think that I am a pacifist so, although I know that we all have to suffer and endure it, I don't want to.

That doesn't explain why suffering is wrong.

 

[arthra]

The character of God can only be gleaned through His Holy Bible and by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in sincere prayer and supplication . Who are His Messengers? Are the obvious?

Without the Messengers and Prophets we would be without guidance.. even the scripture mentions this:

1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,...."

(King James Bible, Hebrews)

 

[Serenity7855]

Without the Messengers and Prophets we would be without guidance.. even the scripture mentions this:

1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,...."

(King James Bible, Hebrews)

I am not disagreeing with you, I am asking whom you define as messengers. For example, I am a messenger, as you are a messenger, however, we are not prophets, or also are messengers. Do you believe that there are prophets here on earth right now?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Not in my world. Contention is demonic in nature. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

Do you not contend anything or with anyone?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You state you don't want "satan" to see that the issue of children starving or being raped by pedophiles bothers you. Isn't that a bit like burying your head in the sand? Years ago, my aunt and uncle had a house fire. My aunt ran upstairs to get her children. She watched as one burned to death in front of her eyes, screaming for her, his arms reaching out for her. She grabbed her other son and daughter and then tripped over something, dropping her daughter. She was never able to find her daughter again, who was unconscious and unable to let her know where she was because of smoke inhalation. That daughter died as well. Are you really willing to tell me that God had a reason for the horrors my aunt lived through that day? She had been a very devout Christian before that day. After it, she left all faiths and died an atheist, seeing no reasons whatsoever for worshipping a deity who would inflict horrors of this nature on anyone and I did not blame her. If this is what you think God does with children and that that excuses God for these horrors, I would ask you to bring your head out of the sand and see the light of day.

What a horrific story Jo. I am so, so sorry to hear things like this, it is truly heartbreaking. I can't even begin to imagine the pain your aunt must live with every day of her life. My heart and my love goes out to you and your family.

 

[SkepticThinker]

They are far and few between, but I never said that there were none. You are answering a question that has not been asked. What I said was "Now ether that person is lacking in the intelligence department for not realising that contention will almost certainly be the result of a debate between a theist and an atheist, or they are here because they enjoy to contend and ridicule Christians, I think that the latter is probably true"


Not in my world. Contention is demonic in nature. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

All I can say to this is that if disagreement is considered demonic in your world, than I am happy that I do not live in your world. I have no desire to live in a world of automatons.