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Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

No, they didn't suffer because a caring loving God would have allowed their spirits to be released prior to any suffering, in my opinion. But you are quibbling because I am right. Nobody was said to suffer in the flood. You cannot deny that as it is fact. So how can you contend that they did? I do not believe that there was a flood and science backs up my belief. I think that it is a story with divine principles.



Is that what you think?



Yes


Right, so now the atheist calls me a sociopath. Thank you for the usual insult.

Your perspective is one of a human and not a God. You think you see the whole picture, hence the arrogance, however, you only see a small part of it. You portray these people as model citizens in order to make God look bad. These people where almost inhuman in their wickedness. Worse than any people you could imagine, or want to imagine. So evil were they that they defiled the land upon which they walked and made god sorrow in their creation. If you think that God cleansed they earth of decent, wholesome people then you delude yourself and in the process you try and delude anyone who reads your words.



Yes what wonderful inspiring words that are indicative of a loving Heavenly Father. He was not admitting any such thing of the sort. That is your tainted interpretation. He did not wipe anybody out either. We are eternal beings and like energy, we cannot be wiped out.

Then we both agree the flood story in the bible is just a story. However, it doesn't teach a righteous message. You have said god doesn't know what will happen in the future, doesn't know what decisions men will make until he makes them. Men were wicked on the earth and he decided they were unredeemable and slaughtered the lot of them. There may have been those that were redeemable but I guess we'll never know. What righteousness is there in wholesale genocide?

Then can only twist up peoples thinking whose thinking is already damaged. Do you misinterpret intentionally to try and confuse, or do you genuinely not see the divinity and unconditional love in His beautiful words

I see ancient mythological stories that are as rooted in reality as the mythological stories about Zeus, Odin, and Ra.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
I don't think you would recognise it.

................

Yes, we are all guilty of personal incredulity. at times but with black and white situations it is hard to be.



No, I am not. I know when I am being criticised and I know when someone is frustrated and angry. You came in like a bull in a china shop ready to knock anything that you didn't like down.

First I had to remove some stuff from your quotes so I could fit everything in the post. I am not avoiding anything and addressed as much as I could fit.

I don't think you would recognise it.
That doesn't answer my question. This is a weak and irrelevant point.

Because the scriptures tell me so and the Holy Ghost confirms it to me. If He were not perfect we wouldn't be here.

That's a non sequitor; him existing or not has no logical connection with us being here. Also saying you know its true because you hear voices from a Ghost isn't an argument. Its an assertion, and an unlikely one at that. Why would you expect anyone to buy into this argument?
I mean Muslims say the same thing. Mormons say the same thing. Its all a matter of faith right? Well what about all the faiths of all the different religions? Your word that your mind didn't make an illusion for you isn't persuasive or convincing to anyone. I don't trust that you perfectly understand everything. And even if you did have it "confirmed", it could be the devil trying to trick you. That would require even more impossible knowledge that you probably don't have access to.
What do you care, you are an atheist. If God had accepted Satan's plan we would all be in hell right now. If I had been born without male genitalia I would be a girl, but I was, so I am a boy, and if God were to feel the smallest desire to sin His Godhood would cease immediately. "IF" is a big word that can incompass any scenario that you choice to attach it to. God is perfect and has a perfected body of flesh and bones and we are imperfect with an imperfect body of flesh and blood.
You're making more assumptions. I'm actually an agnostic. You have a tendency to make conclusions on things that you don't have enough knowledge to know, including your conclusions on God and religion.
Also this is another non sequitor. Being God doesn't have anything to do with him sinning or not. A God isn't defined as a being who can't sin. Also the body is very imperfect. Each time someone gets cancer or suffers a disease it reflects its many imperfection. I mean is it perfect that many bodies can't eat gluten, where glueten is prominent in many many foods? That isn't perfect at all.
Many people choose to do evil and when they do it is usually devastating.
Many people don't choose to do evil or don't recognize they're doing evil because of psychopath.
We all have choices to act in anyway we choose. Genetic have not been proven to cause changes in our emotions, The next thing you will say is that homosexuals have no choice in their sexuality, It is the result of a Gay Gene, that has not been found, because they are too busy looking for a pedophilia gene to excuse the behaviour of pedophiles in our society so that they can make that legal as well. I think that they want to find a alcoholics gene as well. When will the stop trying to excuse bad behaviour. That all has the traits of evil. It is deceptive, dishonest, perverted, ungodly, abominable, satanic and a mockery to God. To claim that you have no choice is a copout and an excuse to sin.
You really need to educate yourself on genetics before making all of these claims. Here's just one source showing how wrong you are. I have dozens of other sources too.
Genes that affect emotion and personality:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21835681
Also, you're implying a false Dilemma--its not that either genes do determine our actions or they don't. Genes interact with the environment to shape us and our actions. Genes have an effect that combined with the environment leads to traits we have. Genes don't solely determine us, but they greatly affect the outcomes. Also, the environment isn't decided by us anyways, so really most of our decisions are a result of things that aren't our choices. You would make entirely different decisions if you were born in india 1000 years ago.
Regardless, the point is that we don't have full free will. We only have partial free will, or sometimes no free will, that determines what we do. You might think you have a choice, but its possible you're predisposed to having religious experiences, and then combined with your family means you're very likely to be religious. That's an example of environmental and genetic factors making you believe what you believe. You could have also had a gene that makes you predisposed to skepticism and doubt, which means that you would be an atheist or an agnostic.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19961060

God created our world an placed mankind on it. He has not been back since Adam and Eve fell and immortalised the world. He didn't create a playing field, we did. ..........But doing evil is a choice so we will all be made accountable for those choices, unless we draw upon the power of the atonement and repent then our robes will no longer be as scarlet but as white as snow and our sin will be remembered no more. I can't wait, it will be good to meet up with some of the atheists that I have crossed swords with on here, and elsewhere.

Adam and Eve didn't exist. There were never refer than a few thousand human beings to preserve genetic diversity. I mean humans couldn't have emerged from the incest resulting from two human beings.
"
Not the biblical Eve[edit]
However, the theory does not suggest any relation between biblical Eve and Mitochondrial Eve because Mitochondrial Eve:
is not a fixed individual
had a mother
was not the only woman of her time, and
Y-chromosomal Adam is unlikely to have been her sexual partner, or indeed to have been contemporaneous to her. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
This again reflects your lack of research in important scietnific arenas. How can you argue about this stuff and make claims about adam and eve when you haven't even checked if they ever existed?
That is right, however, if you have to live a life that would enable you to see fairies, wouldn't you give it a go? I did and now I am a believer.
If I started seeing fairies I would first get an MRI and then check myself into a psych ward for observation. People with mental disorders or those who take psychedlic drugs are enabled to see fairies and have other hallucinations, so no I wouldn't give it a go. Seeing something doesn't mean it exists. It just means your brain thinks it does. Those are very different.
God is Alpha and Omega, knowing the beginning from the end, what happens in between He has no control over, so He cannot know who will get Leukemia or who will lose their life in a car accident. All of those things are the result of the choices we make. The weakening of our gene pool, the poor driving of another human who is a poor driver as a result of one of the traits of his ancestors. Have you ever heard of the "Butterfly Effect"?
No, people getting Luekemia isn't a result of our choices. Leukemia is a result of mutation and genetic problems.Would anyone decide to have leukemia? Obviously not, thus disproving your point. Also God doesn't know much if he doesn't know what happens in the middle. That means he only knows the beginning flash and the last bit of darkness in the unvierse. But any physicist could tell you that as well. He doesn't really seem like God the way you're portraying him. Anyways though, a toddler could have predicted that a universe where life emerged would result in suffering and pain. God could certainly figure that out too even if he doesn't know what happens in the middle.
No, if you said that you would be ostracized for being so stupid. It is a weak analogy and an poor attempt ............. Explosions are not intelligent, they do not think cognitively, they are inanimate objects under our control.

You didn't understand the analogy whatsoever. Read it again. I didn't say explosions were intelligent; ironically, thats a strawman. The point that you missed is that God is exactly like the terrorist. He set off the initial big bang, he knew what was going to happen, he knew there was going to be suffering and death. Similarly, the terrorist knows the suffering and death that will likely occur as a result of the explosion he set off. But somehow you think God isn't responsible even though he pulled the trigger on the big bang explosion. Both pulled the trigger and both knew the consequences. You're not making any sense. You actually have to demonstrate that the analogy doesn't work, you can't just claim it doesn't.
That is exactly right, you took the words right out of my mouth. As he knew then he is culpable. With out him playing his part the bomb would not have gone off. But we are not talking about bombs and ....You cannot blame anyone for what you decide to do. I cannot believe that you think we can pass the buck blamelessly, although our society is becoming a "blame anyone you can" society. I guess you are just proof of that.

Why on earth are you bringing up the tobacco industry? The tobacco industry has been sued numerous times anyways. The bomb terrorist thing was just a relevant example, just like how God set off the big bang. Both knew what were going happen. Both set off the explosion. You haven't explained how the analogy was a strawman though; don't do it by bring up the irrelevant tobacco industry being sued based on US laws. We're talking about responsibility, and most people agree the tobacco industry is responsible for the deaths. The tobacco industry knew what was going to happen if they kept release tobacco products, just like how God knew of the suffering and death that would occur that are simply a result of the laws of physics--for example, God could affected the laws of physics to make high energy radiation less prevalent, thus reducing cancer.
Also alcoholism is genetic. That seriously reduces free will. Often times people get addicted and cannot stop. I dont think you're that aware of the science behind addiction to make claims about decisions. Go look it up.
I don't think that I do. I know what atheists who come on these forums intentions are. It is given away in ..........stroy your argument that you have set up as the same as mine, thus thinking that at the same time you have destroyed mine. It is grossly dishonest and leads to a debate that cannot be argued honestly because of a straw man.
Ok but I didn't make a strawman argument, and I didn't need a bloated definition of what it is. Until you can show I made a strawman there then this paragraph is basically moot.
No, I am not. I know when I am being criticised and I know when someone is frustrated and angry. You came in like a bull in a china shop ready to knock anything that you didn't like down.
Stop overexaggerating so much. I agree with the China Shop part but not the bull, since the china shop implies that you're emotionally fragile. I do find your idea of moral responsibility to be disturbing and disgusting, but that doesn't make me frustrated and angry. You're not a psychologist and you cannot make such conclusions over a forum. I think you have this weird fallacy in your head about all the mean, hostile atheists who are attacking you, even though im not an atheist. Regardless, even if I was frustrated or angry, how does that help your position?
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Prove any of this please.

Who cares what Donald Rumsfeld saw? Is he the only person in the world with eyes?


I'm reading what you're saying, and replying to what you're saying. I haven't told you to shut up or that you shouldn't have whatever views you like. I just don't find your arguments convincing.

As to HIV causing AIDS, I go with what the science says on the subject and I made that very clear. I read and considered your points and found them to be erroneous and unconvincing. That doesn't make me a bigot.

Well you're criticizing him so you must be a hostile, angry, frustrated atheist like all the rest of the mean, angry atheists on this forum. /jokes
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
It occurs to me that "perfect" beings wouldn't have screwed up in the first place. Your "logic" is messed up. We didn't turn out as god expected and he puts all the blame on his creation.

What makes you think that the screwed up? The alternative was to remain in their perfection for eternity and we would have never been born. Instead, Eve partook of the fruit and lost her innocent allowing her to procreate and kick start the human race. How did she screw up. Your understanding of "reasoned logic" is a mess, which is no doubt the reason for your fall from grace..

You still haven't answered my question. How is it immoral for a human to order someone to be murdered but it is moral for god to order someone murdered?

Who do you think God, a perfect being both physically and spiritually, ordered to commit murder. Whose life was threatening our existence so badly that it had to be taken in order that man may be. Why do you care, none of it is true, according to you. You gave up your chance to be with god by succumbing to carnality.[/QUOTE]
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Well you're criticizing him so you must be a hostile, angry, frustrated atheist like all the rest of the mean, angry atheists on this forum. /jokes

I do not usually answer other people posts, however, because you are misrepresenting me, by lying in order to discredit me, I thought it imperative to respond just to say that I do not consider anybody to be hostile, angry, a frustrated atheist like all the rest of the mean, and an angry atheists by reason of criticism alone. It is those who are consummate liars and aggressively offensive that I deem to be blaggards of the highest order, not unlike yourself..
 

peacecrusader888

Active Member
Remember this: this earth is a testing ground, a sieve. We have been given free will to do good and evil. God loves us. We should confess to God and repent of our sins. God will pardon us (Luke 1:77-78). But if we repeat the same sin, we may be playing with God, and He knows it. Do you think He will take you to Heaven and live in His kingdom?
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
No disrespect but that sounds like a gaping plot hole. How can the original creator (who is more powerful) not be able to control his weaker creation?

No disrespect taken. God did not create Satan (in the usual sense of the word 'create'). Satan broke away from God. And God is only More Powerful than Satan insofar as God is the Unity of all things, including Satan. Moreover, if you are more powerful than me, that does not necessarily mean that you can completely control me. Struggles between a more and a less powerful force happen all the time without the more powerful force (completely) besting the less powerful force.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
First I had to remove some stuff from your quotes so I could fit everything in the post. I am not avoiding anything and addressed as much as I could fit.

You could have always continued it, as I have done, rather then limit it as if you couldn't answer it.

That doesn't answer my question. This is a weak and irrelevant point.

Then why didn't you leave it out and put something more important in.
That's a non sequitor; him existing or not has no logical connection with us being here.

So, you think that our existence is independent of God?
Also saying you know its true because you hear voices from a Ghost isn't an argument.

You have never heard me say that I have heard voices. I always describe it as a exterior source of intelligence that communicates conceptually. So, yet again another misrepresentation or an outright lie.
Its an assertion, and an unlikely one at that. Why would you expect anyone to buy into this argument?

2.2 billion other Christians do not describe it as unlikely, however, I certainly do not expect anyone to buy into it.

I mean Muslims say the same thing. Mormons say the same thing. Its all a matter of faith right?

Firstly, Mormons are Christians. Secondly, God exists so you would expect other denominations to say the same thing.

Well what about all the faiths of all the different religions?

What about them.

Your word that your mind didn't make an illusion for you isn't persuasive or convincing to anyone.

I have never seen anything divine with my earthly eyes so I have never claimed it. If I had I certainly would not cast my pearl before swine.

I don't trust that you perfectly understand everything. [/QUOTE]

If I knew everything I would be omniscient, like God, I am not omniscient, or anywhere close to it.

And even if you did have it "confirmed", it could be the devil trying to trick you. That would require even more impossible knowledge that you probably don't have access to.

You don't know that. I would certainly recognise him again.

You're making more assumptions. I'm actually an agnostic
.

Yes, assumptions based on the content of your posts which suggests that you are an atheist.
You have a tendency to make conclusions on things that you don't have enough knowledge to know, including your conclusions on God and religion.

No, that is your interpretation of who I am.

Also this is another non sequitor.

It is non-sequitur and you are using it incorrectly.

Being God doesn't have anything to do with him sinning or not.

Sorry, but you are speaking from ignorance. You don't know what you are talking about.

A God isn't defined as a being who can't sin
.

God is not defined by a single definition He is defined by many definitions, sinless is just one of them

Also the body is very imperfect. Each time someone gets cancer or suffers a disease it reflects its many imperfection. I mean is it perfect that many bodies can't eat gluten, where glueten is prominent in many many foods? That isn't perfect at all.

What on earth are you talking about. Our bodies are imperfect, and Gods is perfect.

Many people don't choose to do evil or don't recognize they're doing evil because of psychopath.

All of us will be judged fairly with all of the extenuating factors. You can only be judged by a law that you know.

You really need to educate yourself on genetics before making all of these claims. Here's just one source showing how wrong you are. I have dozens of other sources too.

You really need to educate yourself on religion. Why are you intent on trying to make me wrong? Genetics is not a massive part of my general knowledge, I have never said that it is. I find it hard to conceptualise it, however, genes do not control who I am. The person inside of me and my cognitive reasoning. If they did my entire existence could be predetermined and everything I do could be attributed to a sin. Justice could never be served as it will always be attributable to a gene. Murders would get off by claiming to have a killing gene and rapists would say they have a rapest gene. By your logic there is no immorality and no sin we are all the product of our genes.

Genes that affect emotion and personality:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21835681


Also, you're implying a false Dilemma--its not that either genes do determine our actions or they don't. Genes interact with the environment to shape us and our actions. Genes have an effect that combined with the environment leads to traits we have. Genes don't solely determine us, but they greatly affect the outcomes. Also, the environment isn't decided by us anyways, so really most of our decisions are a result of things that aren't our choices. You would make entirely different decisions if you were born in india 1000 years ago.

A conscience cognitive mind is capable of determining the difference between right and wrong and then making a choice as to which one it will choose. Again, if your logic is true then how could we determine whether someone is guilty or not have murder?
Regardless, the point is that we don't have full free will. We only have partial free will, or sometimes no free will, that determines what we do.

I do not believe that. It is a copout and excuse for our wrong doings. There is nothing in my life that I can say is not the result of my choices that I have knowingly made.

You might think you have a choice, but its possible you're predisposed to having religious experiences, and then combined with your family means you're very likely to be religious.

I was raised an atheist. I became a Christian because it was logical and felt right. I grant you that I laugh like my mother did, however, she laughed at different things to me
That's an example of environmental and genetic factors making you believe what you believe. You could have also had a gene that makes you predisposed to skepticism and doubt, which means that you would be an atheist or an agnostic.

I do not discount that, however, it beggars the question as to whether our whole experience here is predetermined by genes and that we are all products of genes without any individuality.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19961060

Adam and Eve didn't exist. There were never refer than a few thousand human beings to preserve genetic diversity. I mean humans couldn't have emerged from the incest resulting from two human beings.

Adam and Eve had perfected bodies whilst in the Garden of Eden. When they sinned and the body became immortal they had bodies of flesh and blood that were in pretty go shape. To then procreate whilst in that condition would not have cause any problems, especially since Eve was created out of the rib of adam.

"
Not the biblical Eve[edit]
However, the theory does not suggest any relation between biblical Eve and Mitochondrial Eve because Mitochondrial Eve:
is not a fixed individual
had a mother
was not the only woman of her time, and
Y-chromosomal Adam is unlikely to have been her sexual partner, or indeed to have been contemporaneous to her. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

You call speculation research, really? You do realise that there are those who criticize the existence of a Mitochondrial Eve:

This again reflects your lack of research in important scietnific arenas. How can you argue about this stuff and make claims about adam and eve when you haven't even checked if they ever existed?

I have checked if they existed. I was told that they didn't by a source far greater then men. But you carry on delivering you unnecessary insults and unfounded accusations against my person, it only tells the reader who you are, unless they are one of the same ilk.

If I started seeing fairies I would first get an MRI and then check myself into a psych ward for observation. People with mental disorders or those who take psychedlic drugs are enabled to see fairies and have other hallucinations, so no I wouldn't give it a go. Seeing something doesn't mean it exists. It just means your brain thinks it does. Those are very different.

I don't know what you are talking about or who you refer to as seeing things that nobody else see. As you accused me earlier, you are assuming without evidence to support your assumption. You are clearly not familiar with things divine or or what Christianity is all about.
No, people getting Luekemia isn't a result of our choices. Leukemia is a result of mutation and genetic problems.

I didn't say that it was the result of our choices. I said that it is the result of a weakened gene pool or hereditary as a result of gene transmission, which is pretty much the same as you have said here. It is the result of mans actions that have caused it and nothing to do with God, whom I was defending

Would anyone decide to have leukemia? Obviously not, thus disproving your point.

I did not say that we choose the illness that we have, how preposterous, I chalked it up to genetics, which you would have known if you were reading for comprehension instead of looking for trivialities to catch me out on. You clearly haven't disproved my point, you have corroborated it, but why do you want to so desperately?

Also God doesn't know much if he doesn't know what happens in the middle.

God knows all thing that can be known. I would say that is a lot because there is no more.

That means he only knows the beginning flash and the last bit of darkness in the unvierse. But any physicist could tell you that as well.

Now you are being ridiculous[/QUOTE]
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Continued

He doesn't really seem like God the way you're portraying him.

How do you know, you don't even believe He exists. I portray Him as a perfect being with a perfect Plan of Salvation. You would have difficulty comprehending that because, although you claim to be an agnostic, you have all the traits of an atheist he doesn't want to believe.

Anyways though, a toddler could have predicted that a universe where life emerged would result in suffering and pain. God could certainly figure that out too even if he doesn't know what happens in the middle.

He did know that, what are you going on about man, are you reading words that are not here? It is what he intended for us to be tried and tested by.

You didn't understand the analogy whatsoever. Read it again. I didn't say explosions were intelligent; ironically, thats a strawman. The point that you missed is that God is exactly like the terrorist. He set off the initial big bang, he knew what was going to happen, he knew there was going to be suffering and death. Similarly, the terrorist knows the suffering and death that will likely occur as a result of the explosion he set off. But somehow you think God isn't responsible even though he pulled the trigger on the big bang explosion. Both pulled the trigger and both knew the consequences. You're not making any sense. You actually have to demonstrate that the analogy doesn't work, you can't just claim it doesn't.

I don't think that you understand what a straw man is, despite my showing you in detail. Logically I don't think that God is responsible, but you think He is because that is what you want to be true, just like an atheist would. Just like in your analogy the terrorist is at fault, he had the final decision so you cannot blame inanimate objects that kill their target because they cannot be held accountable. That accountability lies with the terrorist..

Where is the connection between the Big Bang, which still remains as a theory, and the terrorist killing innocent people. It sound like you are excusing the actions of the terrorist on the grounds that God exists.

I am not making any sense? My word you have a nerve when it is you who thinks that bombs are responsible for everyone who is killed by them and that murderers should not be found guilty of a crime that a bomb committed. How can anybody demonstrate that the person who is accountable for the loss of life is the one who actually pulled the trigger with every intention of taking lives. The words are sufficient. It is moral accountability. I do not have to demonstrate it because it is a moral standard that is upheld by the whole world, that is, except for you. Why don't you stop trying to find words to insult me and start to pay attention as to what is being said here.

Why on earth are you bringing up the tobacco industry? The tobacco industry has been sued numerous times anyways. The bomb terrorist thing was just a relevant example, just like how God set off the big bang.

I think that your ignorance of the Plan of Salvation is causing you to say things that are completely disconnected to reality. You are blaming God because He created the world on which we sin. If he had not done that then we would not have sinned and the terrorist would not be put on a position to sin, Am I correct? But what you do not actually know is that the Plan of Salvation was decided upon by all of us in the council in Heaven. We wanted to gain a body of flesh and blood so that we could one day have a body of flesh and bones and be like God. We wanted Him to organise the elements to create a suitable environment in which we could dwell. We were all a part of these decisions and those that disagreed where cast out of heaven, one third of them. God was acting under the instructions that we gave Him. We said that we would not blame Him for anything but we would glorify His name. God cannot be held accountable for following the majority desires of his children, especially as those decisions would bring them back into His presence.

Both knew what were going happen. Both set off the explosion. You haven't explained how the analogy was a strawman though;

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. An example of an advanced argument is a terrorist pulling the trigger of a bomb is somehow the fault of the bullet compared to the original argument of that God is responsible for our actions because He created us.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition, for example, a terrorists accountability for blowing up a bomb killing several people being the bombs fault (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument of a terrorists accountability for blowing up a bomb killing several people being the bombs fault ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition that God is responsible for our actions because He created us and put us here. The only draw back here is that when your straw man is knocked down by the reality that a bomb cannot be made accountable for its actions, then neither can we be made accountable for our action, in this case, with the bomb being an inanimate object and us being cognitive humans who know what we are doing. The result is that the terrorist is quite correctly accountable for those people losing their lives, but that the Straw Man owner cunningly makes God accountable for our actions because of the straw man that you introduced. It is a completely unreasonable conclusion made through by a desire to win a point. It works with those who do not recognise it but sticks out like a sore thumb to those who do

don't do it by bring up the irrelevant tobacco industry being sued based on US laws. We're talking about responsibility, and most people agree the tobacco industry is responsible for the deaths.

If the tobacco industry is responsible for smokers deaths then so is the bomb responsible for killing innocent people. We all have a choice as to whether we smoke or not. Just because the tobacco industry produce cigarettes does not mean that we have to smoke them.

The tobacco industry knew what was going to happen if they kept release tobacco products, just like how God knew of the suffering and death that would occur that are simply a result of the laws of physics--for example, God could affected the laws of physics to make high energy radiation less prevalent, thus reducing cancer.

God is omnipotent not a magician. The laws of the universe cannot be altered.

Also alcoholism is genetic. That seriously reduces free will. Often times people get addicted and cannot stop. I dont think you're that aware of the science behind addiction to make claims about decisions. Go look it up

I will just ignore the obvious insult and put it down to your intelligence, or lack thereof. So, you, who accuse me of not being knowledgeable enough in the field of genes, thinks that alcoholism is genetic, evidenced by your words "Also alcoholism is genetic" Let me take great pleasure in informing you that you are "wrong". Research shows that genes are responsible for about half of the risk for alcoholism. Therefore, genes alone do not determine whether someone will become an alcoholic. Environmental factors, as well as gene and environment interactions account for the remainder of the risk.*

Check it out Here

Ok but I didn't make a strawman argument, and I didn't need a bloated definition of what it is. Until you can show I made a strawman there then this paragraph is basically moot.

You unquestionably set up a Straw Man argument. In my opinion, you desperately needed a definition as to what it is. I have given you another extensive explanatio because I feel you still have not understood.

Stop overexaggerating so much. I agree with the China Shop part but not the bull, since the china shop implies that you're emotionally fragile. I do find your idea of moral responsibility to be disturbing and disgusting, but that doesn't make me frustrated and angry. You're not a psychologist and you cannot make such conclusions over a forum. I think you have this weird fallacy in your head about all the mean, hostile atheists who are attacking you, even though im not an atheist. Regardless, even if I was frustrated or angry, how does that help your position?

I find you unnecessary ad hominem attacks equally as disturbing, uncivilised and disgusting.

How do you know that I am not a psychologist?

I have free agency, I can do what pleases me, however, I am not exaggerating

Yes, I gathered not the bull. more like a chiwawa. This is probably the only place you dare to be angry.

Weird fallacy, don't you mean weird fantasies? Anyhow, you bare out my suspicions about atheists, you may hide behind the label of agnostic but there is no doubt in my mind that you are an atheist.
 
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Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
No disrespect taken. God did not create Satan (in the usual sense of the word 'create'). Satan broke away from God. And God is only More Powerful than Satan insofar as God is the Unity of all things, including Satan. Moreover, if you are more powerful than me, that does not necessarily mean that you can completely control me. Struggles between a more and a less powerful force happen all the time without the more powerful force (completely) besting the less powerful force.
Whilst that may be true for humans and nations, can the same be said of a creator god?
From what you're saying, it appears that Satan was a "part" of god which rebelled and "detached" from god, is that correct?
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Whilst that may be true for humans and nations, can the same be said of a creator god?
From what you're saying, it appears that Satan was a "part" of god which rebelled and "detached" from god, is that correct?

In relation to the first part of your post, why not?

In relation to the second part, yes.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
In relation to the first part of your post, why not?

In relation to the second part, yes.
Because surely a creator god has more ability and resolve than a nation?

Also, do you believe your god is the original creator of the universe, or do you just see him/her/it as a mere "higher being"?
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Because surely a creator god has more ability and resolve than a nation?

Also, do you believe your god is the original creator of the universe, or do you just see him/her/it as a mere "higher being"?

On Earth, the Creator is certainly more capable than a nation. But the Creator's arena is rather bigger than the Earth, so in that sense the analogy is a useful one.

The God/dess is not the original creator of the universe - it is Satan who created the early universe.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
On Earth, the Creator is certainly more capable than a nation. But the Creator's arena is rather bigger than the Earth, so in that sense the analogy is a useful one.

The God/dess is not the original creator of the universe - it is Satan who created the early universe.
"Early" universe? What is the difference between that and the current one?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Release of energy causes suffering but we work to constantly give and take, it is a cycle and balance that doesn't have favorites.

If the sun were to super nova is that mass suffering or a new beginning?(that is if the earth didn't kill us first) Most suffering and death is caused by mother nature, even more than murder and car accidents etc. Yet we are bi-products of this nature so its hard to be mad at something your part of.

The key I think is that it is supposed to be a sharing of power and energy not to war for it. When we are all gods(having dominion and all) sharing power is better than fighting over it.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Well you're criticizing him so you must be a hostile, angry, frustrated atheist like all the rest of the mean, angry atheists on this forum. /jokes
Well it is part of our atheist agenda that we discuss at our weekly meetings.





Oops ... I let the cat out of the bag. :D
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I assumed you meant all day because you said it was on fire "all day" and a day is 24 hours. I know that when people go to work it is usually for a period of 8 hours so I would assume that when you say you have been to work all day that you mean a working day, which is usually 8 hours.

So you don’t make any distinction between day and night? The tower burned for 9 hours. That’s a long time. I still don’t see why it’s so surprising that at building that had burned for 9 hours ended up collapsing.

A poor analogy but I know what you are saying, however, when you get many buildings, of the same construction as building 7 was, that are on fire, the way that the heat transfers to the metal is identical regardless as to what is producing the heat source or at what temperature. Therefore, if none of those building collapse when on fire whilst receiving the same level of heat transfer then it becomes a characteristic of that kind of building, which it was, up until Building Seven when office fires, with a low specific heat capacity, was claimed to have weakened the trusses. It is therefore deemed as uncharacteristic and should have been included in the NIST Report, instead it was completely omitted.

Did these other buildings have two other giant buildings collapse in a heap of flames right next to them?

Something went wrong with the detonation of building 7. It was supposed to have comedown with the rest. which is why there has been so much emphasis put of

Larry Silverstein's comment when he excitedly said "They are going to pull it"

That sounds like a lot of speculation to me.

Because the important part of the quote was something else.

So you do not agree that the building was “just grazed?”

[
The fuel that was ignited when the planes hit had dissipated within seconds of the collision. What was burning was the material that was in the building and any office furniture. Eyewitness testimony and video evidence document no inferno at the aircraft impact level

This observation along with the above indicates two things:
  1. There was little fire in WTC 2 prior to its collapse.
  2. The black ash from WTC 1 indicates the presence of large amounts of soot. Soot is a byproduct of inefficient combustion, therefore the fires in WTC 1 did not burn at extreme temperatures.
9/11 Comparison Fires
October 2004 February 2001

Venezuela Spain

Fire duration:17 hours Fire duration 20+ hours


February 2005

Both of the above buildings were of inferior build quality to the WTC, yet they burned hotter & far longer than the twin towers & WTC 7 AND REMAINED STANDING.

WTCs 1 & 2 WTC 7

WTC 2 fire duration: No Aircraft

56 minutes Office

WTC 1 fire duration: Fire Duration

85 minutes 6 Hours

The "truss theory" relies on the assumption that 800ºC+ infernos started a catastrophic chain of events which led to the collapse of the twin towers. There were fires in both buildings following the aircraft impacts, but no infernos - "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperatures above 250ºC.

Ryan wrote that the institute's preliminary reports suggest the WTC's supports were probably exposed to fires no hotter than 500 degrees -- only half the 1,100-degree temperature needed to forge steel, Ryan said. That's also much cooler, he wrote, than the 3,000 degrees needed to melt bare steel with no fire-proofing.

"This story just does not add up," Ryan wrote in his e-mail to Frank Gayle, deputy chief of the institute's metallurgy division, who is playing a prominent role in the agency investigation. "If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I'm sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers."

The "truss theory" relies on the assumption that 800ºC+ infernos started a catastrophic chain of events which led to the collapse of the twin towers. There were fires in both buildings following the aircraft impacts, but no infernos - "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperatures above 250ºC."

More Interesting Reading Here

No other scientists seem to be voicing an opinion, other then those who put together the NIST Report, who said it was set up to fail..

http://www.debunking911.com/towers.htm

http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/06/debunking-911-conspiracy-theories.html

People who voted for the current Government do not want to admit that they erred in their judgement so they will back the government even though they know they might be wrong. You give the same impression. They are conformists.

Oh, do you read minds?

It is not an exact figure. The population of the USA is 286 million. 47% of that population have said that they believe it is an inside job which equates to about half of them, which is 146 million.

Where did you get the figure from? I don’t see anything that has numbers anywhere near that high.
 
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