Why does man seek to relieve the symptoms of suffering ...

[buddhist]

I'm not very knowledgeable about the Buddha, but I think that many Buddhists accept that suffering is living. Death and birth are illusions as the self is an illusion to Buddhists, just as suffering is an illusion to Buddhists. Just because its an illusion though does not mean that its bad. Moderation! Rebirth is an illusion, too for Buddhists, or how can they be reborn if they aren't born? So its all some kind of metaphor for something that they find hard to discuss.

IMO what you described regarding illusion is a late Buddhist (Mahayana) perspective, and not a Theravada or early-Buddhism perspective. (This is one of the major differences which separates Mahayana from Theravada).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm not very knowledgeable about the Buddha, but I think that many Buddhists accept that suffering is living. Death and birth are illusions as the self is an illusion to Buddhists, just as suffering is an illusion to Buddhists. Just because its an illusion though does not mean that its bad. Moderation! Rebirth is an illusion, too for Buddhists, or how can they be reborn if they aren't born? So its all some kind of metaphor for something that they find hard to discuss.

As I understand it the duality between birth and death, cause and affect, emptiness and non-emptiness etc are illusions and thus, without seeing that these two things are actually one continuum and within the cycle of life/suffering, rebirth will always continue.

As for rebirth being an illusion, from how I see it, it's a fact. Just we have illusions such as attachments that keep us from ending this fact of rebirth. We stay in our illusions thinking things are dualistic and so forth. The Buddha did talk about suffering is an illusion, though. It's a form of attachment; and, if we are attached to suffering, then we won't have liberation of the mind. Suffering started at birth only because we are born into a world of suffering. If the world wasn't full of suffering, then we wouldn't see life-the suffering of life-in such a dualistic way. We'd see its nature and know how to address our and other people's ills because of our liberation of the mind (nibanna).

I'm still learning this myself but it's hard when I'm only reading Pali and Sutras for support.

 

[Brickjectivity]

IMO what you described regarding illusion is a late Buddhist (Mahayana) perspective, and not a Theravada or early-Buddhism perspective. (This is one of the major differences which separates Mahayana from Theravada).

I think it is some of my own thinking. I don't represent any branch of Buddhists, nor do I wish to suggest in any way that I represent them. That would be misleading and not my intention. If anything I would have only Buddhists represent Buddhism.

I think that the 'Therevada' has some great insights. I like that it says to go ahead and reason and to explore. I like its moral teachings.

I don't like its assurance of nibbana. We have a saying here that "Time flies when you're having fun," and its a true saying. Time also flies when you are sleeping, but when you wake up time slows down. When you endure, that is when you are alive. The lack of suffering appears to mean the cessation of experience.

 

[buddhist]

I think it is some of my own thinking. I don't represent any branch of Buddhists, nor do I wish to suggest in any way that I represent them. That would be misleading and not my intention. If anything I would have only Buddhists represent Buddhism.

I think that the 'Therevada' has some great insights. I like that it says to go ahead and reason and to explore. I like its moral teachings.

I don't like its assurance of nibbana. We have a saying here that "Time flies when you're having fun," and its a true saying. Time also flies when you are sleeping, but when you wake up time slows down. When you endure, that is when you are alive. The lack of suffering appears to mean the cessation of experience.

I'd rather say that time seems more meaningless when I'm asleep, but looking back at sleep (retrospectively when I'm awake), it seems like it flew by.

I feel suffering is meant to provoke us towards higher states of being, the pinnacle of which we (as Buddhists) perceive and define as "nibbana".

 

[Brickjectivity]

As I understand it the duality between birth and death, cause and affect, emptiness and non-emptiness etc are illusions and thus, without seeing that these two things are actually one continuum and within the cycle of life/suffering, rebirth will always continue.

As for rebirth being an illusion, from how I see it, it's a fact. Just we have illusions such as attachments that keep us from ending this fact of rebirth. We stay in our illusions thinking things are dualistic and so forth. The Buddha did talk about suffering is an illusion, though. It's a form of attachment; and, if we are attached to suffering, then we won't have liberation of the mind. Suffering started at birth only because we are born into a world of suffering. If the world wasn't full of suffering, then we wouldn't see life-the suffering of life-in such a dualistic way. We'd see its nature and know how to address our and other people's ills because of our liberation of the mind (nibanna).

I'm still learning this myself but it's hard when I'm only reading Pali and Sutras for support.

I can't really say what the Buddha would think. I have found something called the 'Law of impermanence' on the accesstoinsight site: "She thus came to see that death is the universal fate of all living beings, not a unique calamity that befell her own son. So she returned to the Buddha, aware now of the universal law of impermanence." from this page This law of impermanence appears to correspond with accepting death as a final thing as an opposite to what many consider rebirth -- continuation in another form. I can't say that for sure, but it appears that way.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can't really say what the Buddha would think. I have found something called the 'Law of impermanence' on the accesstoinsight site: "She thus came to see that death is the universal fate of all living beings, not a unique calamity that befell her own son. So she returned to the Buddha, aware now of the universal law of impermanence." from this page This law of impermanence appears to correspond with accepting death as a final thing as an opposite to what many consider rebirth -- continuation in another form. I can't say that for sure, but it appears that way.

Exactly. What I thought all this time but never could find it in the sutras directly. Yes. When The Buddha spoke in the Lotus Sutra, he tells his disciples that he is preparing for his passing and for them to continue his words to for other people to hear. So basically The Buddha's teachings is to be comfortable with life/suffering and death/relief of it. Until we are comfortable with both sides of the coin, we go into rebirth as The Buddha did many times before he finally rested.

 

[Tumah]

Suffering & enjoyment/pleasure both refer to the same scale. Just as if I was speaking of coldness while you speak of heat - both exist on the same scale of temperature, just different polarities.

So does a half full/half empty glass.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I can't really say what the Buddha would think. I have found something called the 'Law of impermanence' on the accesstoinsight site: "She thus came to see that death is the universal fate of all living beings, not a unique calamity that befell her own son. So she returned to the Buddha, aware now of the universal law of impermanence." from this page This law of impermanence appears to correspond with accepting death as a final thing as an opposite to what many consider rebirth -- continuation in another form. I can't say that for sure, but it appears that way.

Life in the big pond as it's said. =0)

Discovering there's nothing really to pursue or run away from.

Once realised, "By way of bits and pieces" dukkha seems to be not so unmanageable a problem or issue whenever a person stops viewing it that way. It consequently becomes, as I see it, a matter of navigation thereafter.

 

[Bird123]

... instead of uprooting suffering itself?

I would daresay that all activities which mankind engages in, from things as mundane as eating, not eating, sleeping, waking, drinking, not drinking, sex, celibacy, pursuing entertainment or education, to things like worship, seeking a savior, a god, etc., are all ways of relieving the symptoms of suffering/dukkha.

We go to sleep, in order to relieve the suffering of tiredness (a suffering). We wake up, in order to relieve the suffering of too much sleep. We eat, to relieve hunger (a suffering). We stop eating, to relieve overeating (a suffering). Etc. The cycle of suffering in samsara is endless.

My God, is everything defined as suffering to you? WE all have the power to choose what we value. Why value suffering? I sleep only but for the joy of sleeping. I eat for the joy of eating. I maintain a healthy body for the joy of being healthy. I do not live to relieve suffering. I live for the Joy of life's experiences.

As for the challenges in life, I know overcoming challenges makes me smarter, stronger and better. I live for the joy of overcoming those challenges. I can't wait for the next great adventure. I will be Ready. Will you????

 

[buddhist]

My God, is everything defined as suffering to you? WE all have the power to choose what we value. Why value suffering? I sleep only but for the joy of sleeping. I eat for the joy of eating. I maintain a healthy body for the joy of being healthy. I do not live to relieve suffering. I live for the Joy of life's experiences.

Joy, as I've stated, is simply the opposite polarity of suffering. It's all on the same scale. It's like saying, "I love heat, but hate cold", but what you define as "heat" might be someone else's "cold". Seeking & accumulating joy is the same as saying "reducing suffering".

As for the challenges in life, I know overcoming challenges makes me smarter, stronger and better. I live for the joy of overcoming those challenges. I can't wait for the next great adventure. I will be Ready. Will you????

How do you permanently overcome the challenges of old age, illness, and death?

 

[Kartari]

Hi Brickjevity,

I can't really say what the Buddha would think. I have found something called the 'Law of impermanence' on the accesstoinsight site: "She thus came to see that death is the universal fate of all living beings, not a unique calamity that befell her own son. So she returned to the Buddha, aware now of the universal law of impermanence." from this page This law of impermanence appears to correspond with accepting death as a final thing as an opposite to what many consider rebirth -- continuation in another form. I can't say that for sure, but it appears that way.

You're not far off from my take on this sutta. Impermanence more broadly refers to the transience of all things, including us, but also of feelings, thoughts, objects, you name it. The point of that passage to me is that the suffering mother refused to face the reality of her son's death. She deluded herself to protect herself from the truth. The Buddha wisely sought to find a way for her to come to that realization. I surmise that he recognized that telling her with words would not penetrate her understandable cloud of suffering. She had to get a more tangible experience of the universality of death before she could go beyond her suffering-inducing fantasy and begin to truly grieve and come to terms with the tragedy.

That said, rebirth is indeed a traditional Buddhist belief, though it is generally distinguished from reincarnation by disavowing a permanent sense of self or soul. What is reborn is not some permanent entity or essence of the present self, but the karmic effects of oneself in this lifetime. Tibetan Buddhism though has adapted both concepts (rebirth and reincarnation) into its belief system, however, perhaps due to its strong influence from India.

 

[YmirGF]

In Buddhism, we believe that removing the root of suffering brings one to nibbana, the permanent, blissful coolness.

Minus the suffering aspect, I'm more inclined to tell people to understand what is causing their sensation of suffering and attempt to eradicate that element from their experience. No one needs to suffer.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'd rather say that time seems more meaningless when I'm asleep, but looking back at sleep (retrospectively when I'm awake), it seems like it flew by.

I feel suffering is meant to provoke us towards higher states of being, the pinnacle of which we (as Buddhists) perceive and define as "nibbana".

Exactly. What I thought all this time but never could find it in the sutras directly. Yes. When The Buddha spoke in the Lotus Sutra, he tells his disciples that he is preparing for his passing and for them to continue his words to for other people to hear. So basically The Buddha's teachings is to be comfortable with life/suffering and death/relief of it. Until we are comfortable with both sides of the coin, we go into rebirth as The Buddha did many times before he finally rested.

Life in the big pond as it's said. =0)

Discovering there's nothing really to pursue or run away from.

Once realised, "By way of bits and pieces" dukkha seems to be not so unmanageable a problem or issue whenever a person stops viewing it that way. It consequently becomes, as I see it, a matter of navigation thereafter.

You're not far off from my take on this sutta. Impermanence more broadly refers to the transience of all things, including us, but also of feelings, thoughts, objects, you name it. The point of that passage to me is that the suffering mother refused to face the reality of her son's death. She deluded herself to protect herself from the truth. The Buddha wisely sought to find a way for her to come to that realization. I surmise that he recognized that telling her with words would not penetrate her understandable cloud of suffering. She had to get a more tangible experience of the universality of death before she could go beyond her suffering-inducing fantasy and begin to truly grieve and come to terms with the tragedy.

That said, rebirth is indeed a traditional Buddhist belief, though it is generally distinguished from reincarnation by disavowing a permanent sense of self or soul. What is reborn is not some permanent entity or essence of the present self, but the karmic effects of oneself in this lifetime. Tibetan Buddhism though has adapted both concepts (rebirth and reincarnation) into its belief system, however, perhaps due to its strong influence from India.

Very interesting replies all around!

 

[buddhist]

Minus the suffering aspect, I'm more inclined to tell people to understand what is causing their sensation of suffering and attempt to eradicate that element from their experience. No one needs to suffer.

Is that not just treating the symptoms of suffering?

 

[YmirGF]

Is that not just treating the symptoms of suffering?

Hardly. Removing the cause of suffering goes to the heart of the suffering. Suffering is not a noble thing in and of itself. Extricating oneself from suffering is the goal. Again, there is no need for anyone to suffer. Aside: If one is set on the suffering shtick, I'm not sure a meaningful conversation can be had as all you end up with is a glorified pity party.

 

[buddhist]

Hardly. Removing the cause of suffering goes to the heart of the suffering. Suffering is not a noble thing in and of itself. Extricating oneself from suffering is the goal. Again, there is no need for anyone to suffer. Aside: If one is set on the suffering shtick, I'm not sure a meaningful conversation can be had as all you end up with is a glorified pity party.

I apologize for any misunderstanding because I thought you were focused on teaching others the cause of "their sensation of suffering" and not the cause of suffering, and it was the former I was addressing.

 

[YmirGF]

I apologize for any misunderstanding because I thought you were focused on teaching others the cause of "their sensation of suffering" and not the cause of suffering, and it was the former I was addressing.

Though heavily influenced by Buddhist thought, I have morphed that thinking considerably over the years. Misunderstanding is expected when using similar concepts.

 

[Bird123]

Joy, as I've stated, is simply the opposite polarity of suffering. It's all on the same scale. It's like saying, "I love heat, but hate cold", but what you define as "heat" might be someone else's "cold". Seeking & accumulating joy is the same as saying "reducing suffering".

How do you permanently overcome the challenges of old age, illness, and death?

The way I see it is that we are all Spiritual beings in our true natures. We are all Eternal. Old age, illness and death are no more or no less than changes. How do such things change you and the world? With old age comes a decrease in the perceptions of sensory input. That can bring clarity of the mind which can allow one to focus on things one was blind to in the past. Force of Will allows one to accomplish things in old age regardless. Illnesses change the world. That adversity pushes mankind to advance in the knowledge of science. It can teach people lessons of the Spirit. Finally,death brings changes to one's parameters. Advances in learning require advances in the parameters. Existence is fluid. Everything moves forward.

The way I see it when one is brought into this physical world, one is flooded with so much sensory input it is easy to be seduced into thinking this physical world is all there is. Is it Reality to think the entire story is just what is in front of our noses? As I see it with most everything, there is always so much more one can discover that lives beneath that surface consisting of multiple levels with multiple views. One mere physical example is people then DNA. If one limits their view to just the surface, one misses the DNA.