Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[cottage]

Nothing I said was a logical impossibility. A square has objective aspects that a circle cannot perform even if God did not exist. A moral act is not the same. In fact we constantly struggle in many cases to determine if X was right or wrong. Morals unlike squares have no objective reference points outside of God. If we have objective points because God exists then it would be his nature that determined what was evil or good. Unless you can show only a God with a nature that made murder wrong do you have a point. Murder is related to our value to God and an inherent worth that only exists if his nature dictates it.

Your entire apologetic is built on a logical impossibility, and it seems you misunderstand the argument. The contradiction doesn’t depend upon morals, what we think is wrong, human emotions, or what God ordains.

P1. If God were all merciful there would be no suffering.

P2. There is suffering

Conclusion: Therefore there is no all merciful God.

P1 is a necessary truth; P2 is evidential. In order to disprove the conclusion you must show that P1 is false, i.e. that there can be suffering where there can be no suffering, which is impossible, or you must demonstrate that suffering does not exist, which would be absurd since you acknowledge its existence.

Note that this has nothing whatsoever to do with 'semantics' or a contrived technical issue.

I do not know if that is accurate. We can give to God, but we can't add to God's sufficiency to be God. Having a mate does not make me any more of a human being. Being sufficient does not mean having all things. It means having all necessary things. God does not have a material form yet he is no less God without it. He is not evil, yet no less God without being so. If I believe life with God is greater than not existing then in what way can you say I am wrong? If I feel fortunate in what way am I not. I also wanted to ad something here that pertains but not something I understand. The bible seems to suggest our souls existed even before the foundation of the universe. I have no idea what that means but it would affect your claims.

You are of course entitled to feel and believe whatever you like, since now that you exist you are in a position to have those feelings and beliefs. But you were not in that happy position before you existed! (I don’t know how many times I must repeat this). And as to a pre-existing soul, even if that were true, it doesn’t affect my argument in the least, because it is still the case that God brought the person into existence exclusively for his own use or gain (to have a relationship with himself).

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus would be something we could never comprehend. He would be a divine will obedient in every way (by choice not necessity IMO), but would have been confronted on every decision by his weak material body and will while on earth. No God did not make us flawed. He made us perfect but with the freewill to become flawed. Those that failed are archetypes of what we all would have chose. Yet this is not the end, he did not abandon us to destruction. He paid the entire cost to remedy this eternally and yet we are so corrupt we will not even accept the provision. You seem to have rammed two independent issues together like a train wreck.

Train wreck? You have to get your little barbs in there? But what I was trying to say is that God can make a human body and imbue it with enough of himself to make it obedient. He seems to have made some to be destined for destruction doesn't it? So that's on him isn't it?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Let's imagine, purely for argument's sake, that the parents really were irredeemably evil and had to be killed. How would the babies, adopted by righteous Israelites, then have grown up corrupted? And as others have pointed out, the logic of your argument proclaims that the best favour anyone could ever do for a baby is to kill it at birth - straight to heaven, no possibility of corruption.

That hadn't even occurred to me. Good point.

 

[kjw47]

Train wreck? You have to get your little barbs in there? But what I was trying to say is that God can make a human body and imbue it with enough of himself to make it obedient. He seems to have made some to be destined for destruction doesn't it? So that's on him isn't it?

Mortals own hearts are their downfall--Gods word teaches a persons heart is desperate and treacherous( means can easily believe false reasonings)

God sent us his son--I believe 1%( FEW) bother learning his truths and applying them to be able to see clearly the entrance to the narrow gate.

 

[ZenMonkey]

P1. If God were all merciful there would be no suffering.

Mercy implies an end to suffering already inflicted.

P2. There is suffering

Hence the need for mercy, which God gives to all.

Conclusion: Therefore there is no all merciful God.

Our suffering ends when God's mercy ends our suffering.

P1 is a necessary truth; P2 is evidential. In order to disprove the conclusion you must show that P1 is false, i.e. that there can be suffering where there can be no suffering, which is impossible, or you must demonstrate that suffering does not exist, which would be absurd since you acknowledge its existence.

You're premise is not accurate, so your points are moot.

You are of course entitled to feel and believe whatever you like, since now that you exist you are in a position to have those feelings and beliefs. But you were not in that happy position before you existed! (I don’t know how many times I must repeat this). And as to a pre-existing soul, even if that were true, it doesn’t affect my argument in the least, because it is still the case that God brought the person into existence exclusively for his own use or gain (to have a relationship with himself).

(Please bear with me) The only way to rise again is by first falling down. I mean the only way to grow and develop as living beings is to experience some resistance (good and evil). No pain no gain (so to speak). It is what it is. We live, we grow, develop, and mature through pleasure, suffering, and pain. However, our suffering is not without worth. When the end comes, another life in the heavenly realms awaits for all, hence God being all merciful. <<---<< not yet seen by many.


The earth is a womb of life (a place where life is formed). God is the the one who shapes and forms us; he is the vine dresser. Jesus is the son of God (the first and last Adam). It is through the first and last Adam (the way, the truth, and life of all humanity) that we come to know the father. We come to know the father because we are aware of what is. The first and last Adam is the vine through which every human branch and family came to be. It is through the first Adam that we inherit death, and it is through the last Adam that we inherit eternal life. This vine (lineage/family tree of life) is how we come to know the father of all creation, a.k.a. "life" - "reality" - "truth" - "existence".


All living things evolved from the first cause of life. All living things are evolving, developing, growing, learning, attuning themselves with all that is. We're somewhat like an unripened fruit after we've been conceived. We grow as we evolve and ripen through the branches of life (our paternal parents). First as a seed from our father, which germinates the egg of our mother, which then spurs our evolution and growth in our mothers womb.


Once ripe (like a fruit) we fall from the branch that fosters our life (we are born), at which point we as humans begin the process of spiritual growth (we mature) and undergo physical decay. The spark of life in us slowly wanes as we age, and at some point our bodies grow old and die. However, like the seed of a fruit, our inner self (spiritual self - soul) begins another process of evolution, spurring new growth, whereby we begin a new life. It is through this process that we eventually become a new creation in the heavenly realms as a newly born spiritual being. <<---<< Not yet seen by many


That's how I understand it anyway. :yes:


References: John 14:6, John 15:4-11, 1 Corinthians 15:35-58, John 3:3-8, John 14:15-24

 

[cottage]

Mercy implies an end to suffering already inflicted.

Yes, yes, exactly! And that is the problem, precisely!

An all loving God knowing his created beings are, or have become, imperfect should be tolerant, forgiving, compassionate, clement, and benevolent – in other words merciful.

P1. If God were all loving he would be all merciful
P2. There is suffering; therefore God is not all merciful
Conclusion: There is no all loving and all merciful God

Hence the need for mercy, which God gives to all.

God is not merciful to all; hence there is no all loving and merciful God (P2).

Our suffering ends when God's mercy ends our suffering.

The contradiction obtains. Even God cannot undo what is done or rewrite the past

You're premise is not accurate, so your points are moot.

P1 is a necessary truth; P2 is evidential. In order to disprove the conclusion you must show that P1 is false, i.e. that there can be suffering where there can be no suffering, which is impossible, or you must demonstrate that suffering does not exist, which would be absurd since you acknowledge its existence.

(Please bear with me) The only way to rise again is by first falling down. I mean the only way to grow and develop as living beings is to experience some resistance (good and evil). No pain no gain (so to speak). It is what it is. We live, we grow, develop, and mature through pleasure, suffering, and pain. However, our suffering is not without worth. When the end comes, another life in the heavenly realms awaits for all, hence God being all merciful. <<---<< not yet seen by many.

But this simply supports my major premise. If there is an all loving and merciful God then there can be no falling down, as you put it. To invoke evil and suffering as being necessary to overcome evil and suffering is nonsensical by any logical standard and simply restates and confirms the problem.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Yes, yes, exactly! And that is the problem, precisely!

An all loving God knowing his created beings are, or have become, imperfect should be tolerant, forgiving, compassionate, clement, and benevolent &#8211; in other words merciful.

P1. If God were all loving he would be all merciful
P2. There is suffering; therefore God is not all merciful
Conclusion: There is no all loving and all merciful God




God is not merciful to all; hence there is no all loving and merciful God (P2).



The contradiction obtains. Even God cannot undo what is done or rewrite the past




P1 is a necessary truth; P2 is evidential. In order to disprove the conclusion you must show that P1 is false, i.e. that there can be suffering where there can be no suffering, which is impossible, or you must demonstrate that suffering does not exist, which would be absurd since you acknowledge its existence.




But this simply supports my major premise. If there is an all loving and merciful God then there can be no falling down, as you put it. To invoke evil and suffering as being necessary to overcome evil and suffering is nonsensical by any logical standard and simply restates and confirms the problem.

In order to learn how to walk, we must first learn how to fall. You don't just learn how walk from get go. No, you stumble, strive, and fall until you are learn how and are able to walk ... at which point running comes easy. The same is true in life. In order to learn how to live, you must first stumble, strive, and fall until you learn how life operates.


Evil is not a thing in and of itself. It's merely the effect of not knowing how to live rightly. How much knowledge of the way life works do you think Adam and Eve had? God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. It is because humans lack knowledge and understanding that they suffer, stumble, strive, and fall.


However, what comes next after our bodies grow old and die is where God's mercy comes into play. We either cease to be aware (dead/sleep) which ends all suffering, or we grow in maturity and enter eternal life in heaven, which also ends all suffering. God is all merciful, and given the short duration of our lives on earth in contrast to eternity, the suffering most endure here is null.

 

[cottage]

In order to learn how to walk, we must first learn how to fall. You don't just learn how walk from get go. No, you stumble, strive, and fall until you are learn how and are able to walk ... at which point running comes easy. The same is true in life. In order to learn how to live, you must first stumble, strive, and fall until you learn how life operates.


Evil is not a thing in and of itself. It's merely the effect of not knowing how to live rightly. How much knowledge of the way life works do you think Adam and Eve had? God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. It is because humans lack knowledge and understanding that they suffer, stumble, strive, and fall.

So explain how the infant that suffers with Leukemia and then dies is to learn, gain knowledge, and benefit from the experience?

However, what comes next after our bodies grow old and die is where God's mercy comes into play. We either cease to be aware (dead/sleep) which ends all suffering, or we grow in maturity and enter eternal life in heaven, which also ends all suffering. God is all merciful, and given the short duration of our lives on earth in contrast to eternity, the suffering most endure here is null.

And where was the mercy for that child cancer sufferer? Go and tell the child’s distraught parents that the suffering was “null”. It seems to me that in order to defend God (who if he exists needs no defending!) you must debase humanity in a very hard-hearted, uncaring, and patronizing way. The plain fact of the matter is that people suffer unimaginably in this life, which negates the existence of an all merciful God. That is the evidential argument. I have already given you the logical argument.

 

[ZenMonkey]

So explain how the infant that suffers with Leukemia and then dies is to learn, gain knowledge, and benefit from the experience?




And where was the mercy for that child cancer sufferer? Go and tell the child&#8217;s distraught parents that the suffering was &#8220;null&#8221;. It seems to me that in order to defend God (who if he exists needs no defending!) you must debase humanity in a very hard-hearted, uncaring, and patronizing way. The plain fact of the matter is that people suffer unimaginably in this life, which negates the existence of an all merciful God. That is the evidential argument. I have already given you the logical argument.

Suffering doesn't change what is, cottage. Your premise is false based on the fact that we all die, therefor mercy is extended to ALL people because God is all merciful. My own family members after losing an ailing mother (my grandmother) ensured me that "she is no longer suffering" and frankly, I derived great comfort in knowing that. As did her children, and as I do still.

 

[cottage]

Suffering doesn't change what is, cottage. Your premise is false based on the fact that we all die, therefor mercy is extended to ALL people because God is all merciful. My own family members after losing an ailing mother (my grandmother) ensured me that "she is no longer suffering" and frankly, I derived great comfort in knowing that. As did her children, and as I do still.

This is all rather beside the point. You are saying God is all merciful because he ends every person’s suffering by permitting them to die! Well, that’s big of him, seeing that he made possible their suffering. And you are speaking of God extending mercy after the fact. But if God is omnipotent, all loving and all merciful then nobody is allowed to suffer. If person X is no longer suffering it does not alter fact that X did suffer. And a single instance of suffering proves the contradiction and can never be reversed.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

This is all rather beside the point. You are saying God is all merciful because he ends every person’s suffering by permitting them to die! Well, that’s big of him, seeing that he made possible their suffering. And you are speaking of God extending mercy after the fact. But if God is omnipotent, all loving and all merciful then nobody is allowed to suffer. If person X is no longer suffering it does not alter fact that X did suffer. And a single instance of suffering proves the contradiction and can never be reversed.

How would omniscience play into it...would such a being have a concept of here and now versus the future? Is our suffering to God being viewed as the same as us not suffering because in terms of knowing it's already been done. Yes that's not really logical but just curious if it's a possibility.

 

[ZenMonkey]

This is all rather beside the point. You are saying God is all merciful because he ends every person’s suffering by permitting them to die! Well, that’s big of him, seeing that he made possible their suffering. And you are speaking of God extending mercy after the fact. But if God is omnipotent, all loving and all merciful then nobody is allowed to suffer. If person X is no longer suffering it does not alter fact that X did suffer. And a single instance of suffering proves the contradiction and can never be reversed.

We don't like to suffer ... I get it. This doesn't mean God is not all merciful, nor does suffering make God evil. I do understand that you believe there is nothing to look forward to after the course of our lives here on earth. Still, our mistakes have consequences. Life on earth is not without cost. Do our mothers not birth us from their wombs? Your parents are responsible for your life. However, all living things evolved from the first cause of life (God). We are a product (fruit) of our parents choice to bear children (be fruitful), however. We ares still children of life. With that being said, and as I stated prior (to reiterate my previous thoughts): We're like an unripened fruit after our conception. We grow and evolve as we ripen through the branches of life. First as a seed from our father, which germinates the egg of our mother, which then spurs our evolution and growth in our mothers womb. Our parents gave us no choice but to be born. We had no say in the matter. God is merciful in that our days here and the suffering we endure on this (earth) are cut short.


Continued from a prior post: The earth is a womb of life (a place where life is formed). We live on this earth as living creatures. God cares for the vine (the lineage) that is humanity. Jesus is the son of God (the first and last Adam). It is through the first and last Adam (the way, the truth, and life) that all humanity comes to know the father of life. We come to know the father because we are aware of what is, "life" a.k.a. "God". The first and last Adam is the vine through which every human branch and family came to be. It is through the first Adam that we inherited death, and it is through the last Adam that we inherit eternal life. This vine, our lineage, our family tree of life is how we come to know the father of all creation. It was through the first Adam that we were given life, and able to know the father through all that is made. It is through the last Adam (Jesus) that we are given eternal life in heaven through his perfect obedience to God's will. It is because of God's great love and mercy towards us all that Jesus was sent to show us the way and truth of life (God).


Like I stated prior, we are like a fruit. Once we ripen on the branch, we fall from the branch (our mothers womb). Once we are born, we as humans begin the process of spiritual growth (we mature) but we likewise must undergo physical decay and a fair amount of suffering. The spark of life given to us through our maternal and paternal parents slowly wanes as we age, and at some point our bodies grow old and die. In this is the mercy I know and have faith in: Like a seed, our inner self (spiritual self - soul) begins another process of evolution, spurring new growth, whereby we begin a new life. It is through this process that we become a new creation as a newly born spiritual beings in God's heavenly kingdom. <<---<< Just to reiterate my thoughts in a previous post to you.


Consider: Roman 8:1-24

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

We don't like to suffer ... I get it. This doesn't mean God is not all merciful, nor does suffering make God evil. I do understand that you believe there is nothing to look forward to after the course of our lives here on earth. Still, our mistakes have consequences. Life on earth is not without cost. Do our mothers not birth us from their wombs? Your parents are responsible for your life. However, all living things evolved from the first cause of life (God). We are a product (fruit) of our parents choice to bear children (be fruitful), however. We ares still children of life. With that being said, and as I stated prior (to reiterate my previous thoughts): We're like an unripened fruit after our conception. We grow and evolve as we ripen through the branches of life. First as a seed from our father, which germinates the egg of our mother, which then spurs our evolution and growth in our mothers womb. Our parents gave us no choice but to be born. We had no say in the matter. God is merciful in that our days here and the suffering we endure on this (earth) are cut short.


Continued from a prior post: The earth is a womb of life (a place where life is formed). We live on this earth as living creatures. God cares for the vine (the lineage) that is humanity. Jesus is the son of God (the first and last Adam). It is through the first and last Adam (the way, the truth, and life) that all humanity comes to know the father of life. We come to know the father because we are aware of what is, "life" a.k.a. "God". The first and last Adam is the vine through which every human branch and family came to be. It is through the first Adam that we inherited death, and it is through the last Adam that we inherit eternal life. This vine, our lineage, our family tree of life is how we come to know the father of all creation. It was through the first Adam that we were given life, and able to know the father through all that is made. It is through the last Adam (Jesus) that we are given eternal life in heaven through his perfect obedience to God's will. It is because of God's great love and mercy towards us all that Jesus was sent to show us the way and truth of life (God).


Like I stated prior, we are like a fruit. Once we ripen on the branch, we fall from the branch (our mothers womb). Once we are born, we as humans begin the process of spiritual growth (we mature) but we likewise must undergo physical decay and a fair amount of suffering. The spark of life given to us through our maternal and paternal parents slowly wanes as we age, and at some point our bodies grow old and die. In this is the mercy I know and have faith in: Like a seed, our inner self (spiritual self - soul) begins another process of evolution, spurring new growth, whereby we begin a new life. It is through this process that we become a new creation as a newly born spiritual beings in God's heavenly kingdom. <<---<< Just to reiterate my thoughts in a previous post to you.


Consider: Roman 8:1-24

Except God is all powerful and all merciful. A failure to act means that one of those isn't true. That's what cottage is pointing out. It's not really whether suffering stops it's why does suffering occur at all.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Except God is all powerful and all merciful. A failure to act means that one of those isn't true. That's what cottage is pointing out. It's not really whether suffering stops it's why does suffering occur at all.

Growth, development, to gain knowledge of God and an understanding of God's ways maybe? As a Christian panentheist I view God to be the absolute reality (all that is), both physical reality and spiritual. There are physical and spiritual laws inherent to God, which are the distinguishing characteristics and properties (qualities) of God. God's inherent nature and quality is that of law. These laws are set in stone, meaning God cannot change that which is intrinsic to God's nature. God did not create these laws. They eternally exist as God's intrinsic nature, quality, and character. The inherent nature and quality of God is unchangeable. Universal law does not change, nor can it change. God can hardly change that which is inherent in nature and quality.


Take away that which cannot change (God's law = nature and quality of being) and we would be left with chaos, and with a (g)od unable to maintain order and a (g)od unable to give and sustain life. The laws that govern all things are the same laws that enable God to give and sustain life. These same laws hold all things together in the universe. God is who God is, and is sovereign over all things (including self) through the inherent laws that make God who God is. Make one change in God's inherent nature and quality, then "everything" changes. The prospect alone would mean that God is unstable, untrustworthy, unfaithful, and unworthy of our faith. If God can change his inherent quality and nature, if the potential exists at all, then God cannot be trusted by any living creature.


With that being said, our actions have consequences that not only affect us but also the world around us. We are responsible for our actions. It's all built into the system and the mechanisms of life (its law). What we do matters. In order to choose wisely we must first be informed through the attainment of knowledge. Otherwise we are just leading haphazard lives and without proper direction. God gave a warning to Adam and Eve. God set the stage and Satan was used to be the light bearer of such knowledge, which is why he gets such a bad rap by much of mankind. Most do not enjoy the affects of evil. I certainly don't. Adam and Eve needed to be informed however (as do we), so that they (we) can make better, more informed choices determined by prior causes, namely our experiential knowledge of good and evil, through pleasure, pain, and suffering. Suffering serves a purpose, and lend itself to knowledge and an understanding of the ways of our creator. Take away the potential to suffer through the channel of evil (calamity) and there would be nothing to spur moral growth and development.


Again, God is bound by the laws intrinsic to God. They are what makes God "God" (sovereign creator of all things and sustainer of all things).

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Growth, development, to gain knowledge of God and an understanding of God's ways maybe? As a Christian panentheist I view God to be the absolute reality (all that is), both physical reality and spiritual. There are physical and spiritual laws inherent to God, which are the distinguishing characteristics and properties (qualities) of God. God's inherent nature and quality is that of law. These laws are set in stone, meaning God cannot change that which is intrinsic to God's nature. God did not create these laws. They eternally exist as God's intrinsic nature, quality, and character. The inherent nature and quality of God is unchangeable. Universal law does not change, nor can it change. God can hardly change that which is inherent in nature and quality.


Take away that which cannot change (God's law = nature and quality of being) and we would be left with chaos, and with a (g)od unable to maintain order and a (g)od unable to give and sustain life. The laws that govern all things are the same laws that enable God to give and sustain life. These same laws hold all things together in the universe. God is who God is, and is sovereign over all things (including self) through the inherent laws that make God who God is. Make one change in God's inherent nature and quality, then "everything" changes. The prospect alone would mean that God is unstable, untrustworthy, unfaithful, and unworthy of our faith. If God can change his inherent quality and nature, if the potential exists at all, then God cannot be trusted by any living creature.


With that being said, our actions have consequences that not only affect us but also the world around us. We are responsible for our actions. It's all built into the system and the mechanisms of life (its law). What we do matters. In order to choose wisely we must first be informed through the attainment of knowledge. Otherwise we are just leading haphazard lives and without proper direction. God gave a warning to Adam and Eve. God set the stage and Satan was used to be the light bearer of such knowledge, which is why he gets such a bad rap by much of mankind. Most do not enjoy the affects of evil. I certainly don't. Adam and Eve needed to be informed however (as do we), so that they (we) can make better, more informed choices determined by prior causes, namely our experiential knowledge of good and evil, through pleasure, pain, and suffering. Suffering serves a purpose, and lend itself to knowledge and an understanding of the ways of our creator. Take away the potential to suffer through the channel of evil (calamity) and there would be nothing to spur moral growth and development.


Again, God is bound by the laws intrinsic to God. They are what makes God "God" (sovereign creator of all things and sustainer of all things).

It's not about whether suffering is good or beneficisl. If God is all powerful and all merciful as well as all loving, then suffering should not exist given those conditions. It would go against the nature of God. The only way around that is to take away the all-powerful qualifier.

 

[ZenMonkey]

It's not about whether suffering is good or beneficisl. If God is all powerful and all merciful as well as all loving, then suffering should not exist given those conditions. It would go against the nature of God. The only way around that is to take away the all-powerful qualifier.

The only way around it is to take away the laws that govern all that is, which would leave no option for life. It must be as it is. Otherwise there would be no us.

 

[cottage]

Growth, development, to gain knowledge of God and an understanding of God's ways maybe? As a Christian panentheist I view God to be the absolute reality (all that is), both physical reality and spiritual. There are physical and spiritual laws inherent to God, which are the distinguishing characteristics and properties (qualities) of God. God's inherent nature and quality is that of law. These laws are set in stone, meaning God cannot change that which is intrinsic to God's nature. God did not create these laws. They eternally exist as God's intrinsic nature, quality, and character. The inherent nature and quality of God is unchangeable. Universal law does not change, nor can it change. God can hardly change that which is inherent in nature and quality.


Take away that which cannot change (God's law = nature and quality of being) and we would be left with chaos, and with a (g)od unable to maintain order and a (g)od unable to give and sustain life. The laws that govern all things are the same laws that enable God to give and sustain life. These same laws hold all things together in the universe. God is who God is, and is sovereign over all things (including self) through the inherent laws that make God who God is. Make one change in God's inherent nature and quality, then "everything" changes. The prospect alone would mean that God is unstable, untrustworthy, unfaithful, and unworthy of our faith. If God can change his inherent quality and nature, if the potential exists at all, then God cannot be trusted by any living creature.


With that being said, our actions have consequences that not only affect us but also the world around us. We are responsible for our actions. It's all built into the system and the mechanisms of life (its law). What we do matters. In order to choose wisely we must first be informed through the attainment of knowledge. Otherwise we are just leading haphazard lives and without proper direction. God gave a warning to Adam and Eve. God set the stage and Satan was used to be the light bearer of such knowledge, which is why he gets such a bad rap by much of mankind. Most do not enjoy the affects of evil. I certainly don't. Adam and Eve needed to be informed however (as do we), so that they (we) can make better, more informed choices determined by prior causes, namely our experiential knowledge of good and evil, through pleasure, pain, and suffering. Suffering serves a purpose, and lend itself to knowledge and an understanding of the ways of our creator. Take away the potential to suffer through the channel of evil (calamity) and there would be nothing to spur moral growth and development.


Again, God is bound by the laws intrinsic to God. They are what makes God "God" (sovereign creator of all things and sustainer of all things).

You seem unaware of the self-contradiction when you say: “Take away the potential to suffer through the channel of evil (calamity) and there would be nothing to spur moral growth and development.” And then there is the equally absurd “(we) can make better, more informed choices determined by prior causes, namely our experiential knowledge of good and evil, through pleasure, pain, and suffering.” So you are saying, nonsensically, there has to be evil and suffering in order to cope with evil and suffering!

Evil, Omnipotence and omibenevolence is a logically inconsistent triad, as another poster has pointed out to you. So if God is indeed the omnipotent, benevolent being then suffering is logically impossible.

You say God is the creator and sustainer, and that’s what makes him what he is. Yes! That is true by definition (whether or not such a being exists); ‘Creator’ is predicated of the subject “Supreme Being”. And omnipotence, or at least sufficient power to bring the world into being, also follows from that. But mercy, perfect moral goodness etc, is not implied necessarily in the concept. A God can be malevolent or indifferent without involving any contradiction, whereas a monotheistic God that is not the creator is no God at all.

In sum, if you discard the contradictory attributes “all loving and merciful” etc, then not only does God become logically possible but the concept fits with the empirical evidence.

 

[ZenMonkey]

You seem unaware of the self-contradiction when you say: &#8220;Take away the potential to suffer through the channel of evil (calamity) and there would be nothing to spur moral growth and development.&#8221; And then there is the equally absurd &#8220;(we) can make better, more informed choices determined by prior causes, namely our experiential knowledge of good and evil, through pleasure, pain, and suffering.&#8221; So you are saying, nonsensically, there has to be evil and suffering in order to cope with evil and suffering!

Evil, Omnipotence and omibenevolence is a logically inconsistent triad, as another poster has pointed out to you. So if God is indeed the omnipotent, benevolent being then suffering is logically impossible.

You say God is the creator and sustainer, and that&#8217;s what makes him what he is. Yes! That is true by definition (whether or not such a being exists); &#8216;Creator&#8217; is predicated of the subject &#8220;Supreme Being&#8221;. And omnipotence, or at least sufficient power to bring the world into being, also follows from that. But mercy, perfect moral goodness etc, is not implied necessarily in the concept. A God can be malevolent or indifferent without involving any contradiction, whereas a monotheistic God that is not the creator is no God at all.

In sum, if you discard the contradictory attributes &#8220;all loving and merciful&#8221; etc, then not only does God become logically possible but the concept fits with the empirical evidence.

Evil isn't a thing in and of itself ... evil is simply calamity (a state of deep distress or misery caused by major misfortune or loss). This happens through causation (the law of cause and effect). Law is the only constant in life. No law = No life.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Evil isn't a thing in and of itself ... evil is simply calamity (a state of deep distress or misery caused by major misfortune or loss). This happens through causation (the law of cause and effect). Law is the only constant in life. No law = No life.

Weren't the laws set up by God?

 

[ZenMonkey]

Weren't the laws set up by God?

Re-read my prior post to you. God didn't create law, but rather law is intrinsic to God's nature. God cannot change who God is in quality or nature.

Zen wrote: There are physical and spiritual laws inherent to God, which are the distinguishing characteristics and properties (qualities) of God. God's inherent nature and quality is that of law. These laws are set in stone, meaning God cannot change that which is intrinsic to God's nature. God did not create these laws. They eternally exist as God's intrinsic nature, quality, and character. The inherent nature and quality of God is unchangeable. Universal law does not change, nor can it change. God can hardly change that which is inherent in nature and quality. Take away that which cannot change (God's law = nature and quality of being) and we would be left with chaos, and with a (g)od unable to maintain order and a (g)od unable to give and sustain life. The laws that govern all things are the same laws that enable God to give and sustain life. These same laws hold all things together in the universe. God is who God is, and is sovereign over all things (including self) through the inherent laws that make God who God is. Make one change in God's inherent nature and quality, then "everything" changes. The prospect alone would mean that God is unstable, untrustworthy, unfaithful, and unworthy of our faith. If God can change his inherent quality and nature, if the potential exists at all, then God cannot be trusted by any living creature.