Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Please stop attributing my words to JM2C or scripture unless they independently used them. Only I should be required to defend the words I use.

I wasn't attributing your words to JMC2. There are several people in this thread making similar arguments.

Those words were used before I recognized what the term babies was being used to produce (tactic wise). I used the term as synonymous with children not infants. However I think the case much more substantial that babies are not morally perfect that that available to argue that they are morally perfect and without a single flaw. Does appeal to emotions real well, just makes one terrible argument. Boiled down my claims were only meant to suggest that no reason exist to think babies are sinless. If you want to refute General comments made about the first 13 years of life or so then fine but the appeal to the most unknowable hours or weeks subgroup of that claim is not very persuasive though it probably would make very good liberal news copy. I can just hear it now. "Christian thinks babies not morally perfect", so Christians hate babies, so Christianity is therefore wrong, big relief, read all about.

The step in the argument that I'm more concerned with was the second: "X is morally depraved, therefore it's okay to let X die." Is this part of your argument?

 

[JM2C]

As for Psalm 51, the introduction says that it's a Psalm of David after he had the fling with Bathsheba. He's repenting and asking God's forgiveness.

He's not saying all children are morally depraved.

At best, he's saying that he was, or maybe he was using hyperbole?
But everything in the psalm is by David and about David, not people in general.

So, what did you say about Christians again?

Oh, and by the way, I'm not really calling the real God stupid. It's calling Christians who make up, manipulate, and interpret his Word to say what they want.... They're stupid... but well meaning I'm sure.

Now, who is manipulating the word of God, you or Christians?

 

[JM2C]

So please find more verses to build your case that being "born morally depraved" is a real Judeo-Christian doctrine.

Judeo-Christian doctrine?

Is that the “authentic Judeo-Christian doctrine”?

You don’t know what you are saying man.

 

[JM2C]

All the things I looked at pointed to Augustine as coming up with the doctrine of "original sin". And then in Calvinism, the doctring of "total depravity".

Base on Psalm 58:3 and Psalm 51:5 and Eph 2:3

 

[JM2C]

To me, it looks like a Christian only doctrine and not a Bible doctrine, because, still, all the Jewish sites I looked at say we are born with a clean slate. Thanks.

“still, all the Jewish sites I looked at say we are born with a clean slate.”

I kind of agree, but for different reasons. Why would God ever want or need animals to be sacrificed to him? If he is real, why didn't he make things more clear to the Hebrews from the start?

Why did he make them do all those rituals and follow a bunch of rules that he would later nullify?

Why did he have people stoned to death for breaking some of those rules?

What I think is that the Hebrews wrote a mythology that fit their way of life and that explained why they were so special... but so did many other cultures.

“still, all the Jewish sites I looked at say we are born with a clean slate.” But “What I think is that the Hebrews wrote a mythology that fit their way of life and that explained why they were so special”

Can you see how you contradicted yourself here?

 

[CG Didymus]

“still, all the Jewish sites I looked at say we are born with a clean slate.”


“still, all the Jewish sites I looked at say we are born with a clean slate.” But “What I think is that the Hebrews wrote a mythology that fit their way of life and that explained why they were so special”

Can you see how you contradicted yourself here?

The Jewish sites I looked at say that they believe we are born with a clean slate. Their religion tells a story of their people. I believe there are legends, mythology, exaggerations, stories borrowed and reworked to fit their traditions, compiled and forming a book of the things meaningful and special to them as a people.

I see Christians and the NT contradicting Jewish beliefs all over the place. Like your hell, your devil, your virgin born messiah, and being born morally depraved. You have reasons to believe your version of Christianity is right. Jesus died to save a lost and evil people. You have to build traditions that fit your beliefs. You take bits and pieces of the Hebrew Scriptures to do that. Even when it goes against the original intent and meaning of those verses when taken in context. Two verses from Psalms and one from the NT isn't a Bible doctrine. It is Christians building a doctrine, a doctrine that they need to make Jesus' sacrifice mean something.

We all need to transcend our lower natures and strive to become better people. Most any religion can help us do that. When one religion says it's the "only way" then we better make sure. When more than one religion says it's the "best way", we better check it out. I think there are quite a few religious movements that if not saying they are the only way, are at least saying they are the "best" way. What are we supposed to do? We listen to Christians. We read their book and study their interpretation of that book. We see how they apply it in their lives, and what? It's not all that perfect. It's not all that different than any other religion. All have enough truth in them to get people to believe and follow their precepts.

You believe in Christianity, then where did all the other religions come from? Are they myth? Are they made up stories that try and explain the unknown and our place in the universe? Are they evil and only a decoy to get us away from the only one religion that is really telling the truth?

Again, I'll use the good Samaritan parable as an example. He was in the wrong religion, but he did the right thing. The people in the right religion did the wrong thing. Who does Jesus say had the "truth"? If I take James and say that a person that does good works is showing and proving he has faith... is that a true statement? If I combine the good Samaritan story with James could I say that people doing good works, regardless of their religion, are living God's Truth? That's taken from the Bible. Is that a good doctrine?

 

[CG Didymus]

What sins does a new born baby commit in your opinion?
Clear
σεσιτζδρδρω

I was just thinking. A sixteen year old gets their driver's license. Are they already guilty of breaking any traffic codes? No. Will they? Sure, everybody does. Nobody can, or wants to, follow the laws perfectly.

Some people blatantly break the laws. They drive drunk. They weave in and out of traffic. They tail-gate. They speed. They're a menace on the road. Others, drive too cautiously. They go too slow and cause others to have to slam on their brakes because those drivers have clogged up the freeway. Others do little things like they don't come to a full stop when they come to a stop sign. All of us are guilty and have fallen short of the traffic code. But, is that sixteen year old guilty yet?

Hmmm? I could carry this analogy out farther. Should someone sacrifice their son to rid us of this guilt? Or, should we pay our own traffic fines and repent, and drive safer and obey the laws? If someone did give their only son to pay our traffic debt and told us to repent and stop breaking the laws, but, since we can't stop breaking the laws and therefore continued to break the laws, what should the person that gave their only son do? Should they, at some point, revoke our license? Or, keep paying our debt every time we get a ticket?

How about when we don't get caught? Knowing that even if we do get a ticket, it will be paid for, but what are the chances of us getting caught? Pretty darn slim. So a believer in the "get your tickets paid by my son plan" really can get away with whatever they want. That is, until they do get caught and everybody tells them: "Hey, part of the deal was that you were to obey the laws. You didn't repent. You're abusing the free gift." What would they say? "No, no, you don't understand. I'm not perfect... Just forgiven."

Hey Clear, keep up the good work. You are still a good influence on me.

 

[JM2C]

My parents gave me my life. I thank them for it all the time.

And where they got theirs? Don’t tell me they just came out of nowhere.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sell? You mean "donation". We'll say, "A donation of any amount... just remember he who sows a little will reap a little. So dig deep into your pockets. Here is a letter from Abigail... a gold star supporter of our ministry. 'I sent Pastor Skeptic and Reverend CG my rent money, the money I was saving to send my two children to college... I sold my car and all my jewelry and sent that too. I must say, when I received my vial of miracle water, my life has never been the same. Now I have to trust the Lord for everything.' There you go folks. What a beautiful testi...mony. And speaking of mony, (We get all teary eyed), you know this ministry can't survive on air. We need your dollars. So in addition to the vial of miracle water, the first 100 people that send one thousand dollars or more, we will send you an autographed CD of us singing all of our gospel favorites. Songs like "Give, Give 'til it hurts" and "Send cash, God don't like checks". Remember, it's not for us and our fleet of limo's and jet planes, it's for doing God's work. Bless you. And tune in next week when we will be offering toothpicks made from pieces of Noah's Ark."

Yes, yes, I meant "donations." :angel2:

You definitely need to write our scripts for us!

 

[SkepticThinker]

And where they got theirs? Don’t tell me they just came out of nowhere.

From their parents.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

From their parents.

But God magically poofed *them* into existence, right?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, yes, I meant "donations." :angel2:

You definitely need to write our scripts for us!

No, no, we'll have enough money to hire professionals... writers, hairstylists, the works. We can't skimp on doing the Lord's work.

 

[JM2C]

We all need to transcend our lower natures and strive to become better people.

What is your understanding of “our lower natures”?

 

[JM2C]

What is "OUR LOWER NATURES" that "WE ALL NEED TO TRANSCEND" from? "ALL" meaning "everyone"

Can someone answer this?

Maybe the guy with the medals could answer this, or maybe Clear, but I want CG to answer this ‘cause it came from him.

 

[Clear]

IN THE CONTEXT OF ROBIN’S AND JM2C’S THEORY THAT BABIES/INFANTS “SIN CONSTANTLY” AND ARE MORALLY “DEPRAVED”


CG DIDYMUS said : “I was just thinking. A sixteen year old gets their driver's license. Are they already guilty of breaking any traffic codes? No. Will they? Sure, everybody does. Nobody can, or wants to, follow the laws perfectly” # 4427

I agree with your analogy. We do not enter into any completely new moral situation, having prior moral guilt.

The license bureau does not give us speeding tickets in advance of breaking this law. If we obtain a license and then die before we break the speed limit, the police department does not issue us a ticket for being guilty of speeding, then “suspend” judgment of us, nor do they “suspend” punishment since no breaking of this specific law occurred. We simply were not guilty of having broken the speed limit. It is a complete bizarre theory that we, as infants, are guilty of sin BEFORE we actually sin.



CG DIDYMUS said : “ I could carry this analogy out farther. Should someone sacrifice their son to rid us of this guilt? Or, should we pay our own traffic fines and repent, and drive safer and obey the laws?“ # 4427

I also agree that we do not punish one person instead of another and then call this justice.

Though I am Christian and have complete faith in the death of Jesus as a redemption, I think the modern models and theories as why and how his death in an ex-nihilo creation by a "3 is really 1" trinity model accomplishes a redemption are NOT as logical nor as rational as the earliest Christian worldview.

If, Christians discount the value of viewing scriptures through the context of history and language, they will continue to make mistakes such as creating theories that assume infants are morally “depraved” or that they are “sinful” beings who “sin constantly” yet remain unable to give a logical and rational explanation as to what those “sins” might be.



I will be interested if either 1ROBIN OR JM2C will be able to enumerate and describe the sins of a newborn or what it means that they cannot even think of a single sin that a newborn infant commits.

Am out the door to a different city.


Clear
σεσιτωεινεω

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What is "OUR LOWER NATURES" that "WE ALL NEED TO TRANSCEND" from? "ALL" meaning "everyone"

Can someone answer this?

Maybe the guy with the medals could answer this, or maybe Clear, but I want CG to answer this ‘cause it came from him.

To answer it, first I'd have to know what you're talking about.

 

[SkepticThinker]

But God magically poofed *them* into existence, right?

Oh, of course, yes, right!

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, no, we'll have enough money to hire professionals... writers, hairstylists, the works. We can't skimp on doing the Lord's work.

Now we're talking! Let's hope my mother is right about this reincarnation thing. )(

 

[1robin]

myth

1A traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

myth: definition of myth in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)

That is not the mainstream definition when it is used in debates about theology especially when they come from the hostile camp.

These are:

Myth: A misrepresentation of the truth:
Myth: fictitious or imaginary person or thing.
Myth: An exaggerated or idealized conception of a person or thing:
Myth: a widely held but false belief or idea.
myth: definition of myth in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)

or

Myth: an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true.

or

Myth: : a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence
Myth - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

or

Myth: Myths are Narratives that are "Counter-Factual in featuring actors and actions that confound the conventions of routine experience"


Anyway you see there are many definitions of Myth. The question is which ones are most consistent with a person who does not believe a particular story. Mine are consistent with a non-believer. Yours is not.


BTW the Bible is not officially classified as myth. It is classified as historical biography.

Can we get off the semantic circus now?

 

[1robin]

I'm sorry but I don't feel like rehashing the exact same argument with you that we've had several times now. This is like word-for-word identical to the same argument you rehash over and over, no matter what my response. [/quote[ I concur. I am sick of this dead end. It is what it is and cannot be any different.

I've already responded to your Nazi scenario at least twice now.

Ok.

The moral framework I'm talking about is evident via the human experience, psychology, observation and the fact that no two individuals share the exact same moral beliefs.

That is perfectly consistent with biblical doctrine.

When you interpret the Bible, you're interpreting it through your own perspective, just like everyone else.

I certainly hope not. I have spent years in study using established and scholastic biblical exegesis and hermeneutic methodology and prayer to arrive at my conclusions. Many of which I would rather have another way. It is the most securitized book in human history and very certain methods have been long established to arrive at the truth. At least for me there is not much winging it or preference involved.