• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why Does the Biblical God Not Want People To Make an Informed Decision?

Enoughie

Active Member
A common argument for the utter lack of evidence for the existence of the Biblical God is that if the Biblical God were to reveal himself to us we would not have a choice of whether to believe in him or not. In other words, if the Biblical God were to reveal himself to us we would not have "free will" (and free will is an important fabrication in theology, that without it the Biblical God could not send us to hell).

The New Testament goes even one step further than the Old Testament, and says that we have to accept its claims entirely on faith, without any evidence whatsoever. Through all sorts of theological acrobatics, the Christian God is playing "psychological warfare" with people who are genuinely interested in discovering truths about life, yet find absolutely nothing that would support the claims of the New Testament:

"For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:17-18)

What a great excuse and cover up story for having absolutely no evidence to support the theology.

Why does the Biblical God not want us to make informed decisions about life? Is this the behavior we should expect from a loving God?

Dr. Jehovah vs. Dr. Nature

Suppose you need to see a doctor because of a heart problem.
You go to a doctor (Dr. N.), and she examines you thoroughly. After the examination the doctor tells you what may have caused your heart problem, and recommends a particular medication called Naturalis.

You ask her for more detail about this medication, and she happily provides it for you. The medication Naturalis was rigorously tested for years, and was shown to be effective in 98% of cases. There are minor side effects to this medication that were reported in about 0.5% of the people tested. After the medication was approved, 96% of people who were prescribed this medication reported good or very good results. You thank the doctor for her diagnosis and recommended medication, but you would still like to get a second opinion. For this purpose you go to another doctor (Dr. J.).

Dr. J. does not examine you at all, and does not even ask for the reason you came. Instead, he inspects what is written in an old book he has and concludes that you have abdominal pain. He then goes on to recommend a medication called Religiosis. You try to explain to him that you have a heart problem. Yet, he asserts that you have abdominal pain because that is what the book says, and the book can never be wrong (or at least so he claims).

You have your doubts, but you still decide to ask the doctor for more details about this medication. The doctor says that Religiosis was never tested on anyone. The doctor claims that the reason for this is that testing Religiosis would only make it ineffective. Moreover, he tells you that having any evidence for Religiosis' effectiveness would undermine your ability to truly choose what's best for you.

In the medical profession, Dr. J. would be considered a charlatan, and almost anyone would be prudent to question his claims. However, when it comes to looking for guidance on how to live, too many people do not question the claims of religion, but instead choose this form of charlatanism for guidance.

The God of Nature
If a loving God exists, he would not rely on our credulity. A loving God would want us to examine the facts about the world, and make informed decisions about our life. Instead of subverting our senses and reason, a loving God would want us to use all our senses to discover Truths about life. The better we understand the Laws that govern nature, the more informed we become, and the better we can live our life.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Enoughy , to be honest I did not read all of your post which I assume comes from your understanding of God/Bible/religion etc.and would seem to be your informed opinion.
Did God stop you from expressing it ??? No !!!
Isah.1v18, Come now and let us reason together, says the Lord.
Many don't want to hear what God says and would prefer to reason for and among themselves.
Even forum-rules are in favour of such discussions (that lead nowhere except into more confusion) and those speaking in favour of God are viewed as proselytizing. God is not really allowed a voice in such discussions.:sad4:
 

McBell

Unbound
Even forum-rules are in favour of such discussions (that lead nowhere except into more confusion) and those speaking in favour of God are viewed as proselytizing. God is not really allowed a voice in such discussions.:sad4:

Believe it or not, there is a big difference between proselytizing and speaking in favour of god.

Your inability (or unwillingness) to see the difference is no ones fault but your own.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
It's in 1st Corinthians, but I can't remember exactly where, somewhere in chapters 1 or 2, where Paul tells the Corinthians to not study philosophy. And he does it again in another one of his letters. At the time, the philosophical schools were the best at understanding how the world works. Why would he not want believers to study this? The only conclusion I can come up with is because reason and logic lead to a disbelief in god, or at least god the way he saw it. The problem with knowledge and understanding is that, when put to the test, the many of the claims of many religions fail. There's no need to doubt god when the only thing you're allowed to study and believe in is the Bible, or Qur'an, or whatever other religious scripture you're following. I don't think all Christians, or followers of other religions, mostly monotheistic, think this way, but some do. That's the reason why liberal Christians have such a different view of god and the Bible and religion than their more conservative counterparts. Such things hold mankind back, and keep us from progressing. An ethical standard is always needed in this pursuit, but no one religion has any monopoly on morals, as there is not an absolute morality.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
A common argument for the utter lack of evidence for the existence of the Biblical God is that if the Biblical God were to reveal himself to us we would not have a choice of whether to believe in him or not. In other words, if the Biblical God were to reveal himself to us we would not have "free will" (and free will is an important fabrication in theology, that without it the Biblical God could not send us to hell).

The New Testament goes even one step further than the Old Testament, and says that we have to accept its claims entirely on faith, without any evidence whatsoever. Through all sorts of theological acrobatics, the Christian God is playing "psychological warfare" with people who are genuinely interested in discovering truths about life, yet find absolutely nothing that would support the claims of the New Testament:

"For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:17-18)

What a great excuse and cover up story for having absolutely no evidence to support the theology.

Why does the Biblical God not want us to make informed decisions about life? Is this the behavior we should expect from a loving God?

Dr. Jehovah vs. Dr. Nature

Suppose you need to see a doctor because of a heart problem.
You go to a doctor (Dr. N.), and she examines you thoroughly. After the examination the doctor tells you what may have caused your heart problem, and recommends a particular medication called Naturalis.

You ask her for more detail about this medication, and she happily provides it for you. The medication Naturalis was rigorously tested for years, and was shown to be effective in 98% of cases. There are minor side effects to this medication that were reported in about 0.5% of the people tested. After the medication was approved, 96% of people who were prescribed this medication reported good or very good results. You thank the doctor for her diagnosis and recommended medication, but you would still like to get a second opinion. For this purpose you go to another doctor (Dr. J.).

Dr. J. does not examine you at all, and does not even ask for the reason you came. Instead, he inspects what is written in an old book he has and concludes that you have abdominal pain. He then goes on to recommend a medication called Religiosis. You try to explain to him that you have a heart problem. Yet, he asserts that you have abdominal pain because that is what the book says, and the book can never be wrong (or at least so he claims).

You have your doubts, but you still decide to ask the doctor for more details about this medication. The doctor says that Religiosis was never tested on anyone. The doctor claims that the reason for this is that testing Religiosis would only make it ineffective. Moreover, he tells you that having any evidence for Religiosis' effectiveness would undermine your ability to truly choose what's best for you.

In the medical profession, Dr. J. would be considered a charlatan, and almost anyone would be prudent to question his claims. However, when it comes to looking for guidance on how to live, too many people do not question the claims of religion, but instead choose this form of charlatanism for guidance.

The God of Nature
If a loving God exists, he would not rely on our credulity. A loving God would want us to examine the facts about the world, and make informed decisions about our life. Instead of subverting our senses and reason, a loving God would want us to use all our senses to discover Truths about life. The better we understand the Laws that govern nature, the more informed we become, and the better we can live our life.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom.

Not too sure from where your philosophy on religion come from, but I see plenty of religious people who question religion and G-d and have yet to be swallowed up by the earth.
I do realize that "do not question, just listen" is an old idea in the church that some(not many) still apply to their congregates, and that is what turned me of from Christianity, but that still never stopped people from questioning.

We have the word "Why" in our vocabulary for a reason, ya know.
 

Enoughie

Active Member
Enoughy , to be honest I did not read all of your post which I assume comes from your understanding of God/Bible/religion etc.and would seem to be your informed opinion.
Did God stop you from expressing it ??? No !!!
No. The god of the bible didn't stop me. But neither did the refrigerator door. So don't expect me to recognize the divinity of either.

Isah.1v18, Come now and let us reason together, says the Lord.
Many don't want to hear what God says and would prefer to reason for and among themselves.
It's not that I don't want to hear the god of the bible. It's just that I've already heard it enough times, and I examined it closely. Yet, I don't see anything profound or insightful in it.

At this point, continuing to preach the message of the biblical god is just intrusive and obnoxious. If people are interested in following this nonsense they know where to find it.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom.
 

Enoughie

Active Member
Not too sure from where your philosophy on religion come from, but I see plenty of religious people who question religion and G-d and have yet to be swallowed up by the earth.
I do realize that "do not question, just listen" is an old idea in the church that some(not many) still apply to their congregates, and that is what turned me of from Christianity, but that still never stopped people from questioning.

We have the word "Why" in our vocabulary for a reason, ya know.
You can question issues within the religion. But once you start questioning the foundation of the religion, suddenly you stop hearing arguments to support this foundation. Instead you start hearing excuses for why no evidence can be provided to support the claims of religion.

So the idea that a religion welcomes it when people "question" the religion is far from the truth.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Enoughy , to be honest I did not read all of your post which I assume comes from your understanding of God/Bible/religion etc.and would seem to be your informed opinion.

well at least your honest in expressing your unwillingness to reason with people who do not share your beliefs...

with all due respect, what's the difference between this unwillingness towards the spirit of discourse then what a fundamental religious terrorist thinks of a dialogue with someone who doesn't share their beliefs?
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
>Why does the Biblical God not want us to make an informed decision?

He definitely DOES, which is why a central principle of the Baha'i Faith (we being also of the Abrahamic tradition) is Individual Investigation of Truth!

Under this principle, each individual has both the right and the duty to investigate the various religions, decide where the truth lies, and follow that!

And NO ONE else--parents, spouse, clergy, friends, or anyone else--has the right to interfere in this decision!

Simple as that!

Peace,

Bruce
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
The Christian God is afraid. He wants to keep us at the level of docile children, never questioning, never disobeying because he knows we can learn to become better than Gods.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
You can question issues within the religion. But once you start questioning the foundation of the religion, suddenly you stop hearing arguments to support this foundation. Instead you start hearing excuses for why no evidence can be provided to support the claims of religion.

So the idea that a religion welcomes it when people "question" the religion is far from the truth.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom.
You asked "Why G-d..." not "Why church..."

Plenty of people question "Why G-d?" Even in the OT.
Moses, Abraham, Isaiah. Hell, look at Jonah. He tried to run from G-d. Job had his life turned up side down before he questioned G-d. Sarah laughed at him.
The Biblical G-d(that just slightly annoys me) does allow for questioning. The early church(not too sure if this till holds true) does not.
There is a difference between church and G-d.
 

Enoughie

Active Member
You asked "Why G-d..." not "Why church..."

Plenty of people question "Why G-d?" Even in the OT.
Moses, Abraham, Isaiah. Hell, look at Jonah. He tried to run from G-d. Job had his life turned up side down before he questioned G-d. Sarah laughed at him.
The Biblical G-d(that just slightly annoys me) does allow for questioning. The early church(not too sure if this till holds true) does not.
There is a difference between church and G-d.
No. I clearly asked why does the Biblical God not want people to make informed decisions about life. Outside of the Bible itself, there's absolutely no evidence for the claims of the Biblical God, and therefore that god does not want people to make an informed decision.

Religion is the natural derivative of the claims made in the Bible, presumably by the Biblical God. Therefore, I ask about the foundation of religion.

Yet, no one ever provides me with any evidence. All I get is excuses and faulty arguments for why the Biblical God doesn't want people to make informed decisions.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
No. I clearly asked why does the Biblical God not want people to make informed decisions about life. Outside of the Bible itself, there's absolutely no evidence for the claims of the Biblical God, and therefore that god does not want people to make an informed decision.

Religion is the natural derivative of the claims made in the Bible, presumably by the Biblical God. Therefore, I ask about the foundation of religion.

Yet, no one ever provides me with any evidence. All I get is excuses and faulty arguments for why the Biblical God doesn't want people to make informed decisions.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom.
You are using circular logic.
No where in or out of the bible does it say you cannot make an informed decision. The early church said "do as I say" but they were just men. If the biblical G-d had said, do not make any decisions, we would not be allowed to question now.

What you are probably doing is asking the right questions to people who either don't know or don't want to know their religions' history, and find it easier to condemn you than help you find the answers.
 

Debunker

Active Member
This thread is a typical thread posted by atheist. One thing very apparent is that atheist are not shy in pointing out how illogical they think theist are, especially Christian theist. My experience is that when you question the premises of their thinking, however, they fall apart at the seams.

I am going to answer this thread by challenging the basic premises of its ifalse and dishonest assertions.

Let us begin by looking at the title:Why Does the Biblical God Not Want People To Make an Informed Decision? This is a false assumption not supported by the Bible. Beta did a good job pointing out that the Bible does want us to question and reason with God. The OP defiantly does not know what the Bible teaches about reasoning with God. God in the Bible does want people to make informed decisions. It is unfair for the OP to assert this about the Bible.God in the Bible is defined as dabar(Hebrew,OT) and logos (Greek, NT). A study of these terms will settle the question of how God values reasoning.

A common argument for the utter lack of evidence for the existence of the Biblical God is that if the Biblical God were to reveal himself to us we would not have a choice of whether to believe in him or not. In other words, if the Biblical God were to reveal himself to us we would not have "free will" (and free will is an important fabrication in theology, that without it the Biblical God could not send us to hell).
This statement is clearly B.S. in the generic sense of the terms. Many Christians know well that neither the OT & NT do not support an eternal hell fire for sinners. I am such a theist and I know the issue is debatable. The point being, the doctrine of determinism vs. freewill has nothing to do with the threat of hell in the Bible. It is not an important fabrication in theology and the OP only says this because he does not know theist theology. He simply wants to distort Christian theology so he can attack it.

The New Testament goes even one step further than the Old Testament, and says that we have to accept its claims entirely on faith, without any evidence whatsoever. Through all sorts of theological acrobatics, the Christian God is playing "psychological warfare" with people who are genuinely interested in discovering truths about life, yet find absolutely nothing that would support the claims of the New Testament:
The above is really a stupid statement. Nowhere in the Bible is it said that we must accept the Bible by blind faith. It is not psychological warfare but what this thread does is psychological warfare. The theological acrobatics are being used by the atheist on this thread. That there is absolutely nothing to support the claims of the New Testament is seriously stupid. As to faith in the Bible, the Bible says faith is a substance and evidence. There is no such thing as blind faith. The OP illustrates he does not know anything about the subject he criticizes.
"For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:17-18)

What a great excuse and cover up story for having absolutely no evidence to support the theology.
Out of ignorance the OP's take on the above verse is that it is a cover up. This is so obviously incorrect. What the verse is saying is that true reasoning recognizes the truth in the Gospel. How the OP explains this verse is ridiculous.
Why does the Biblical God not want us to make informed decisions about life? Is this the behavior we should expect from a loving God?
Since the premises of the OP are rubbish, lies, and deliberatively dishonest, we should reject totally his summary hypotheses above as a vicious attack on a religion. This thread is a violation of forum rules.
 
Last edited:

Debunker

Active Member
You can question issues within the religion. But once you start questioning the foundation of the religion, suddenly you stop hearing arguments to support this foundation. Instead you start hearing excuses for why no evidence can be provided to support the claims of religion.

So the idea that a religion welcomes it when people "question" the religion is far from the truth.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom.
Ok. Let's see if you believe what you say about questioning the foundation of belief or are you just blowing smoke? It may shock you to discover that most of the Bible was natural philosophy (theology) before it was recorded as revealed theology. Your little quote about natural philosophy is more typical of the Bible than your personal philosophy.

How do you justify being an atheist? You have "no" evidence that there is not a God. Is that not blind faith? Christians offer thousands of evidence that there is a God to support their foundation of belief. Just give us two or three evidences that there is no God.

How do you reason from nothing that there is something? How do you do that? Just rationally explain creation to us if you are so intelligent?I just want to know how you know all the things you say you know.

Ok. Cough it up! We are ready!
 
You have "no" evidence that there is not a God.

You have no evidence that there is a god. Otherwise this debate would not exist.

Christians offer thousands of evidence that there is a God to support their foundation of belief. Just give us two or three evidences that there is no God.

Again, if there was undeniable evidence for either position this debate would not be taking place. We would all be Christians or Athiests.

How do you reason from nothing that there is something? How do you do that? Just rationally explain creation to us if you are so intelligent? !

I don't know why anything exists, just like everyone else. Unlike some people I'm honest about it. I don't claim to have the answers because I don't know. Why do you assume the universe had to be created from nothing? It could have always just been here.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
How do you justify being an atheist? You have "no" evidence that there is not a God.

first we need to define what "god" is.
i say limiting our understanding of "god" through the lens of ancient texts would be limiting our capacity because our understanding of the world around us has evolved. and not just our understanding, some of our senses have evolved as well with the invention of the microscope and the telescope.
there is empirical evidence that we are made of star dust, for example.
the same basic atoms in our bodies are found in the cosmos.

Is that not blind faith? Christians offer thousands of evidence that there is a God to support their foundation of belief. Just give us two or three evidences that there is no God.

well if there are thousands...why didn't you provide 1?

How do you reason from nothing that there is something? How do you do that?

exactly, how do you?

Just rationally explain creation to us if you are so intelligent?I just want to know how you know all the things you say you know.

creation in the biblical sense is irrational, if taken literally.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
This thread is a typical thread posted by atheist. One thing very apparent is that atheist are not shy in pointing out how illogical they think theist are, especially Christian theist. My experience is that when you question the premises of their thinking, however, they fall apart at the seams.

I am going to answer this thread by challenging the basic premises of its ifalse and dishonest assertions.

Let us begin by looking at the title:Why Does the Biblical God Not Want People To Make an Informed Decision? This is a false assumption not supported by the Bible. Beta did a good job pointing out that the Bible does want us to question and reason with God. The OP defiantly does not know what the Bible teaches about reasoning with God. God in the Bible does want people to make informed decisions. It is unfair for the OP to assert this about the Bible.God in the Bible is defined as dabar(Hebrew,OT) and logos (Greek, NT). A study of these terms will settle the question of how God values reasoning.


This statement is clearly B.S. in the generic sense of the terms. Many Christians know well that neither the OT & NT do not support an eternal hell fire for sinners. I am such a theist and I know the issue is debatable. The point being, the doctrine of determinism vs. freewill has nothing to do with the threat of hell in the Bible. It is not an important fabrication in theology and the OP only says this because he does not know theist theology. He simply wants to distort Christian theology so he can attack it.


The above is really a stupid statement. Nowhere in the Bible is it said that we must accept the Bible by blind faith. It is not psychological warfare but what this thread does is psychological warfare. The theological acrobatics are being used by the atheist on this thread. That there is absolutely nothing to support the claims of the New Testament is seriously stupid. As to faith in the Bible, the Bible says faith is a substance and evidence. There is no such thing as blind faith. The OP illustrates he does not know anything about the subject he criticizes.

Out of ignorance the OP's take on the above verse is that it is a cover up. This is so obviously incorrect. What the verse is saying is that true reasoning recognizes the truth in the Gospel. How the OP explains this verse is ridiculous.

Since the premises of the OP are rubbish, lies, and deliberatively dishonest, we should reject totally his summary hypotheses above as a vicious attack on a religion. This thread is a violation of forum rules.

That sure is a long-winded way to say you don't like the question being asked. Anyways, if you really think there is no such thing as blind faith post the evidence that proves "the truth" (your version) of Christianity.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
No.

At this point, continuing to preach the message of the biblical god is just intrusive and obnoxious. If people are interested in following this nonsense they know where to find it.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom.
It is you who brought up the subject of the biblical God my friend. Now you don't want to talk about him. If you only want to discuss him from your own perspective (which is your prerogative) perhaps it should not include Christians. :)
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
well at least your honest in expressing your unwillingness to reason with people who do not share your beliefs...

with all due respect, what's the difference between this unwillingness towards the spirit of discourse then what a fundamental religious terrorist thinks of a dialogue with someone who doesn't share their beliefs?
I have no axe to grind with people who think differently - they have a perfect right to their own opinions.
But the OP was regarding the God of the Bible so please forgive me for thinking we could discuss him in that light.
 
Top