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Why does the Qur'an say that Jews claim Ezra is the son of God?

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Verse 9:30 starts, "Sahih International: The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah ....."

No they don't. I have never heard any Jewish claim of the sort. I fail to see how that is not a blatant untruth.
 

Trysdar

New Member
Verse 9.30 does not speak of Ezra, it speaks of "Uzayr".
It's hadiths that equate Uzayr to Ezra.

But hadiths were interpreting statements enacted by religious scholars that put them back into the mouth of Muhammad, himself assumed to be the guy by whom this anonymous book called Qur'an was there (to not say he wrote it).

So in short, those scholars didn't have a clue who this Uzayr was and assumed this was Ezra based on the close assonance of both names.
 
those scholars didn't have a clue who this Uzayr was and assumed this was Ezra based on the close assonance of both names.

It is interesting that early scholars often seem to be guessing as to the meaning of certain verses, yet later scholars have a consensus and a detailed historical narrative that fixes meaning.

The further away in time you get, the more detailed the tradition and the more certain the scholars become…
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Verse 9.30 does not speak of Ezra, it speaks of "Uzayr".
It's hadiths that equate Uzayr to Ezra.

Really?

Forgetting for the moment that translators almost universally call him Ezra (like Musa is Moses, and Isa is Jesus, etc), you've completely missed the point. The Jews don't call anyone the son of God. In that regard the Qur'an is clearly in error.

But hadiths were interpreting statements enacted by religious scholars that put them back into the mouth of Muhammad, himself assumed to be the guy by whom this anonymous book called Qur'an was there (to not say he wrote it).

So in short, those scholars didn't have a clue who this Uzayr was and assumed this was Ezra based on the close assonance of both names.

Again, not the point.
 

Trysdar

New Member
Really?

Forgetting for the moment that translators almost universally call him Ezra (like Musa is Moses, and Isa is Jesus, etc), you've completely missed the point. The Jews don't call anyone the son of God. In that regard the Qur'an is clearly in error.
The Rabbinic Jews don't.

Not others Jews, otherwise even Jesus, who was Jewish, wouldn't have been called like Son of God, which is not something invented by Qur'an.

Again, not the point.

Your point was about Ezra being called Son of God by Qur'an, not about anyone called like that.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
The Rabbinic Jews don't.

Not others Jews, otherwise even Jesus, who was Jewish, wouldn't have been called like Son of God, which is not something invented by Qur'an.

Not sure what you're arguing here. I'm talking about the obvious error in the Qur'an that I very clearly stated in the OP.

Your point was about Ezra being called Son of God by Qur'an, not about anyone called like that.

You are obviously missing the point on purpose as a form of diversion. I'll leave you to it. Bye.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
It is interesting that early scholars often seem to be guessing as to the meaning of certain verses, yet later scholars have a consensus and a detailed historical narrative that fixes meaning.

The further away in time you get, the more detailed the tradition and the more certain the scholars become…

You make a reasonable point here.

However, the manner in which the currrent understanding of the vast majority of Muslims was arrived at is moot (in terms of the situation on the ground - not academically).
 
Verse 9:30 starts, "Sahih International: The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah ....."

No they don't. I have never heard any Jewish claim of the sort. I fail to see how that is not a blatant untruth.

You make a reasonable point here.

However, the manner in which the currrent understanding of the vast majority of Muslims was arrived at is moot (in terms of the situation on the ground - not academically).

There are 2 options:

1. The author of the Quran, a person who was well versed in the religious and sectarian affairs of Late Antique Arabia and the broader region, thought that Jews in general considered Ezra to be the son of god.

2. The passage means something else (for example, it refers to a certain sect of Jews, it refers to someone/thing other than Ezra such as Metatron, it is a non-literal rhetorical device warning against excessive veneration or a polemical attempt to draw parallels between Jews and Christian’s etc).

Given 1 seems very unlikely indeed, painting it as an “error” seems incorrect.

It’s easy enough for Muslims to se it as a statement that refers to specific Jews in Arabia to make it theologically unproblematic, we can’t even say they would be wrong to do this as it is possible. It’s also theologically unproblematic to see it as a rhetorical flourish against excessive veneration of humans or a theological point that giving angels certain powers violates the unity of God.

Whatever way you slice it, other than a naive error, it is easy to explain for a believing Muslim.

From a scholarly perspective, maybe 100 years ago some Western scholars thought it was a naive mistake, that perspective is largely considered untenable these days though.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Verse 9:30 starts, "Sahih International: The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah ....."

No they don't. I have never heard any Jewish claim of the sort. I fail to see how that is not a blatant untruth.

I think I might know the answer to this.
But help me, remember something.

Which other verses of the Quran talks about Uzair?
Does Quran mention this person was a Prophet?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

I don't know if it will do a difference for you, but the translation is off slightly. It says "The Jews said..." as in past tense. "Yaqaloon" would the translation you have there. This maybe referring to a time and place where they said this in history, not referring to totality of Jews of the present to future or even of that local place and present moment.

Indeed most of the Quran doesn't address Jews as if polytheists, but addresses them from the angle they are monotheists but that they were disobedient and didn't honor and follow all the Prophets sent to them. This can be seen that at a point of history, Jews said this about Uzair but most of the Quran doesn't address this like it does with Jesus (a) and Christians. We can conclude that it's a comment at a point of time in history.

I would always check the original Arabic, sometimes, the difference in translation might be slight, but can change the perspective completely.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Well if the claim is that Jews called Uzayr being the son of god. It’s a reasonable question how they define ‘the son of god’

Just keep reading 9:30. It’s said in exactly the same way that Christians are said to believe in “the messiah” as the son of Allah. All of the above ‘maybes’ are diversions.
 

ChatwithGod

ChatwithGod.ai
The Qur'an mentions this in Surah At-Tawbah (9:30), highlighting incorrect beliefs attributed to Jews and Christians. It serves as a reminder of the importance of monotheism, emphasizing that God does not have children and is uniquely one.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
None. 9:30 is the only one.

It goes back to this verse:

"They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none but One God. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him. Glorified is He above what they associate ˹with Him˺!
9:31

So, I propose, Uzair was a Jewish Scholar living at the time of Muhammad.
The Jews have taken him as God, not in a sense that, they believed he is the creator.
In a sense that, they were obedient to him, as if he is God, and has been following him, and putting their trust in him and serving him. Muhammad meant to say to them, they are supposed to listen to the revelations of Allah, instead of being follwers of their Scholars.
 
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