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Why does the Qur'an say that Jews claim Ezra is the son of God?

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Well does that matter tho, if it was literal or not?

I was presented literally, so yes.

As I understand there were Christian’s that believed it in a figurative way.

Your claim was that Jews never used that phrase, I have showed you that they did .

Not to the extent that Christians use "the son of God" to describe Jesus. Not even close. Yet the Qur'an tells it that way, and it's wrong.

No you are wrong that wasn’t the position of the rabbi, his position was that if you don’t know scriptures in its original language you might have problems with understanding of the phrases being used.

‘If you look at the wording of 9:30, you'll see the same description applied to Jewish belief and Christian belief’

Well now you are interpreting the Quran .

Virgin birth?

Now you are getting desperate.

The question you should ask yourself, obviously if you are sincere . Is it possible that there were Jews in the past that said Ezra is the son of god?

The answer should be yes,
did they mean literal or figurative? We don’t know.
Just because it’s says Jews doesn’t mean all of the Jews and I think you should take that in consideration.

The Qur'an equates Ezra to Jesus in terms of being beleived to be the "son of God". That comparison just doesn't exist.
 
Of course there's a reason. For a person to be the literal son of God (the Qur'an's description), it would have to be either a virgin birth or some sort of divine sexual act. Which of those makes more sense?

It makes more sense to assume the author, who clearly wasn't as naive and badly informed as your argument assumes, did not mean it in the way you are claiming they did.

When protestants called Catholics pagans we understand it doesn't mean exactly the same thing as traditional paganism, it's just sectarian rhetoric.

Okay. I'm good with believing Mohamed just made **** up. After all, he made up the other 6,235 verses, so why not this one too?

Why are you good with assuming someone who clearly wasn't stunningly ignorant of sectarian and religious issues was so ignorant he didn;t understand the most elementary features of Judaism/

Why does that make most sense to you?

Yet, there it sits. A clear error in the Qur'an. And isn't that the main point?

It's not a clear error though. There are numerous potential ways it can be read, and the idea that it is a stunningly naive misunderstanding is the least plausible given we know the Quran engages with a fairly wide range of sectarian issues of the day which demonstrates a pretty wide knowledge of the Late Antique religious landscape.

Steven Wasserstrom has demonstrated that post-Islamic Karaite attacks on Rabbinite Judaism depict the Rabbinite Jews as both anthropomorphizing and worshiping an angel that functions as the substitute creator of the universe. That angel is usually identified with Metatron. Enoch was frequently equated with Metatron and regarded as a "lesser lord," an angel-creator.

When we look to later authors who write about varieties of Jews, we find both anthropomorphizing and the belief in the creator-angel to be an essential definition of Rabbinite Judaism in the early Islamic period. The Karaite heresiographer, al-Qirqisani, for example, defends Jews generally against the charges of anthropomorphism, but as a Karaite, he does criticize the Rabbinite Jews for that very practice.

G Newby - A history of the Jews of Arabia



Btw, Muslims would consider this whole discussion moot, because it assumes that Mohamed authored the Qur'an rather than Allah simply speaking through Mohamed.

They'd consider every post you make moot, but the point for non-Muslims is to look at the text rationally based on evidence.

In this, your argument is the same one made by scholars 150 years ago who uncritically assumed the Quran emerged in a pagan backwater rather than a significantly monotheistic environment full of sectarian conflict.
 

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
I was presented literally, so yes.
Don’t get your answer?
Not to the extent that Christians use "the son of God" to describe Jesus. Not even close. Yet the Qur'an tells it that way, and it's wrong.
well that’s how you interpret, that makes it your problem
The Qur'an equates Ezra to Jesus in terms of being beleived to be the "son of God". That comparison just doesn't exist.
so there were no Christians that didn’t believe in the trinity?
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
For your reading to be true, we would have to believe that Muhammad who, based on the Quran, was reasonably well versed in religious and sectarian affairs, naively thought that Jews in general saw Ezra as the exact analogue of Jesus. Basically it would require he had close to zero knowledge of Judaism.

Regardless of what else he knew about Judaism, he certainly got this wrong.

This discussion revolves around the much greater point that the Quran was authored by a human rather than a god. Let’s not lose sight of that.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
... we know the Quran engages with a fairly wide range of sectarian issues of the day which demonstrates a pretty wide knowledge of the Late Antique religious landscape.

Can you give examples? I can't think of any in my reading of the Quran. For example, it complains endlessly about Pagans, but gives no details rather than that they're polytheists.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
It makes more sense to assume the author, who clearly wasn't as naive and badly informed as your argument assumes, did not mean it in the way you are claiming they did.

When protestants called Catholics pagans we understand it doesn't mean exactly the same thing as traditional paganism, it's just sectarian rhetoric.

I'm sure Mohamed wasn't above using sectarian rhetoric, but those words are not ascribed to Mohamed - they're supposed to be from Allah verbatim. As such, they are held to a much higher standard, and "sectarian rhetoric" doesn't meet that standard (IMO).

As a somewhat connected aside, 'Allah' is also a frequent user of the rhetorical question. I find that to be extremely human, and utterly un-godly.
 
This discussion revolves around the much greater point that the Quran was authored by a human rather than a god. Let’s not lose sight of that.

I agree. So let's analyse it as if it were written by a human.

Can you give examples? I can't think of any in my reading of the Quran. For example, it complains endlessly about Pagans, but gives no details rather than that they're polytheists.

If the text is written by a human then the obvious question is where did he get his knowledge of the Abrahamic traditions from?

It is quite obvious that the Quran assumes its audience is already familiar with these traditions, and this matches the archaeological evidence that shows Arabia had largely become Judaeo-Christian in the centuries prior to Muhammad. Pagan inscriptions pretty much disappear from the record 2 centuries before Muhammad, whereas there are increasing numbers of monotheistic ones. Muhammad did not start this process, he was a result of this process.

The sirah is clearly wrong in its invention of Arabia as a pagan backwater. 150 years ago, when people assumed the Sirah was mostly factually correct, folk could assume Muhammad was pretty ignorant and made elementary errors like saying Ezra was Jesus or Mary was part of the Trinity because he had only got a superficial knowledge from his travels and as his audience were ignorant pagans they knew no better.

This view cannot be a supported any more based on both the text itself and the archaeological/epigraphic record.

If I write a historical fiction book on The French Revolution , but only read one textbook to research it then scholars could easily pinpoint which ideas and events I’d adapted from the textbook. Ditto if someone else read 20 textbooks, scholars could piece together where they’d borrowed from each book.

They could easily tell which of us had read more widely by the presence of ideas from different sources.

With the Quran, scholars can find passages that are influenced by themes present in earlier traditions.

Mary’s story and giving birth under a palm tree relates to the Protoevangelium of James and The infancy Gospel of Matthew. Young Jesus does things from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, etc.

Or the legal culture potentially being influenced by texts like the Didascalia Apostolorum, see for example:


It also shows influences from Christian legends like The 7 Sleepers of Ephasus and the Syriac Alexander Legend/Neshana (and so forth)

So what we know is that the author of the Quran was relatively well versed in Judaeo-Christian Biblical and para-biblical traditions as while we can see echoes of other texts there is no single source that explains the presence of so many diverse features, and the linguistic adaptations show this as being a long process of cultural influence, not simply a short term introduction of alien texts.

Given the sectarian nature of the audience which the Qur’ān sought to win over—especially Jews and Christians—the text takes up the “dogmatic re-articulation” (see definition later) of earlier scriptures belonging to competing religious groups, written in neighboring dialects and languages. The most potent scriptures in the “Qur’ān’s milieu”—that is, the religious, cultural, political, and geographical context within which the text was first articulated and soon codified—and with which it had to contend, were: Hebrew Scripture and Rabbinic commentary (al-tawrāh; Q 5:44—perhaps due to Muḥammad’s exchange with Jewish interlocutors) and the Gospel traditions (al-injīl; Q 5:47—including other New Testament books).

The latter, which left an indelible mark on the Qur’ān’s worldview, doctrine, and language via different Aramaic intermediaries, is dubbed here the “Aramaic Gospel Traditions.” Specifically, these are the extant Gospel recensions preserved in the Syriac and Christian Palestinian Aramaic dialects... The point is that these qur’ānic verses demonstrate a long process of cultural exchange, theological debate, and morphological adjustment—not mere borrowing. There was therefore no process of “cut and paste.”



The Quran and the Aramaic Gospel Traditions - E. el-Badawi


I'm sure Mohamed wasn't above using sectarian rhetoric, but those words are not ascribed to Mohamed - they're supposed to be from Allah verbatim. As such, they are held to a much higher standard, and "sectarian rhetoric" doesn't meet that standard (IMO).

But you think it was written by a human, therefore you need to analyse it as if it were written by a human, not based on whatever characteristics you think Divine speech should take.

Your argument is effectively that the human Muhammad thought Jews saw Ezra as basically being Jesus.

Regardless of what else he knew about Judaism, he certainly got this wrong.

Whether from an Islamic theological perspective, a secualr scholarly perspective, or even based on an elementary understanding of language and rhetoric that is not correct.

You think Muhammad wrote the Quran, why do you think it most plausible that he a) was pretty well versed in Judaeo-Christian sectarian affairs and lived in an environment with many Jews and Christians, some of whom he lived side by side with and b) was so completely ignorant he thought Jews saw Ezra as being an exact analogue of Jesus?

Seeing as the Quran is full of polemical rhetoric not to be taken entirely literally, why is this remotely more probable than it simply being yet another example of rhetorical polemic?
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
But you think it was written by a human, therefore you need to analyse it as if it were written by a human, not based on whatever characteristics you think Divine speech should take.

Your argument is effectively that the human Muhammad thought Jews saw Ezra as basically being Jesus.

First, let me thank you for the time you took to craft this reponse. I am preparing for a major trip, so I'm going to skip down to this. I'll try to get to the rest after we get settled in.

Yes, I think every religious text was written by humans because I don't believe in the existence of god(s). And treating it as such is indeed a fascinating academic exercise, but that's not why I choose to read the Quran. My goal is to understand why Muslims do what they do, which is why I study the Quran as they believe it to be - a verbatim sermon from God.

So, whatever Mohamed thought, and then passed off as divine revelation, is what drives Muslims, and understanding that is my goal.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
It is quite obvious that the Quran assumes its audience is already familiar with these traditions,

Not only that, but much of the Quran is written minus the historical context in which each verse was 'revealed'. Why? Because it wasn't needed. They were all in the middle of whatever was going on, so they didn't need to be told. For example, much of surah 9 is believed to have been written in the context of Mohamed's attempt to attack the Byzantines at Tabuk even though it is never stated as such. This is just another proof that Mohamed was creating just-in-time revelations rather than a timeless tome, complete with necessary context, meant to guide mankind until the Day of Judgement.

How Muslim don't see the obvious ad hoc nature of the Quran is mind-bending. It just demonstrates the power of self-delusion.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
... and this matches the archaeological evidence that shows Arabia had largely become Judaeo-Christian in the centuries prior to Muhammad. Pagan inscriptions pretty much disappear from the record 2 centuries before Muhammad, whereas there are increasing numbers of monotheistic ones. Muhammad did not start this process, he was a result of this process.

Are you saying that Mecca wasn't a mostly Pagan city in Mohamed's time?
 
Are you saying that Mecca wasn't a mostly Pagan city in Mohamed's time?

Probably not, although it is not impossible it was. North, East, South and West Arabia were mostly Abrahamic, we have less evidence for central, but it is becoming less likely it was a pagan remnant given its interconnectedness with the broader region.

Epigraphy from the region become overwhelmingly monotheistic well before then. We also know the version of Mecca as a site of pilgrimage holy to all Arabs is not accurate, so there is a lot of myth making going on regarding Mecca. It may have been Christianised/Judaised to some extent with remnants of paganism 'corrupting' it.

Not only that, but much of the Quran is written minus the historical context in which each verse was 'revealed'. Why? Because it wasn't needed. They were all in the middle of whatever was going on, so they didn't need to be told. For example, much of surah 9 is believed to have been written in the context of Mohamed's attempt to attack the Byzantines at Tabuk even though it is never stated as such. This is just another proof that Mohamed was creating just-in-time revelations rather than a timeless tome, complete with necessary context, meant to guide mankind until the Day of Judgement.

How Muslim don't see the obvious ad hoc nature of the Quran is mind-bending. It just demonstrates the power of self-delusion.

I think it is quite likely that he was an apocalyptic prophet and was expected to lead the community until 'the hour'.

His death (which may be during the invasion of Palestine a couple of years later than that recorded in sirah) and the growing empire led to the need to codify his teachings, but a fair amount of cultural memory seems to have been lost hence the sirah/hadith/occasions of revelation that emerged to explain things that no one really understood any more.
 
Yes, I think every religious text was written by humans because I don't believe in the existence of god(s). And treating it as such is indeed a fascinating academic exercise, but that's not why I choose to read the Quran. My goal is to understand why Muslims do what they do, which is why I study the Quran as they believe it to be - a verbatim sermon from God.

So, whatever Mohamed thought, and then passed off as divine revelation, is what drives Muslims, and understanding that is my goal.

From that perspective though it makes no sense to see it as a mistake, obviously the text cannot contain errors, therefore they must be explained in one way or the other. Also, the Quran says what it says, so the argument that 'god wouldn't speak like that' only makes sense if you are looking at it from a secular historical perspective. Self-evidently the Islamic god does speak like that and this has to be accepted as is if looking at what Muslims believe.

In this case, it almost certainly is not an error though, so it makes sense to try to work out what it meant in context whether you are a Muslim or not..

This is one case where Islamic apologetics and secular scholarship can arrive at the same perspective, because that is what is best supported by the evidence.
 
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