Why does this bug me?

[Jose Fly]

There are other points on the spectrum as well.

Over the past 20 years working on transportation projects I've seen indigenous consultation go from something that usually only gets lip-service to something taken very seriously. These days, it's not uncommon for First Nations to get effective vetos over infrastructure projects, and to have their time and effort reviewing projects compensated.

For instance, I've heard of projects in areas with archaeological potential where the project owner ends up paying for accommodations of First Nations representatives to oversee all excavations.

Yep, that's pretty much the sort of situation that prompted the guy to send us the email. He was obviously upset that we were consulting with tribes, helping them with projects, and taking their cultural concerns into consideration.

If we're going by that measure, then First Nations groups should get all of Michigan.

In the War of 1812, to secure the cooperation of Tecumseh and his warriors, Tecumseh was promised Michigan as an "Indian homeland."

At the end of the war, the British reneged on the promise and agreed to status quo ante bellum.

... but in fairness, the US really should cede Michigan to First Nations groups. After all, the US lost the war.

And that's kinda my point with these sigs. Like I said, my first thought is "Are you planning to give the land back?"

The issue isn't so much with knowing that Native Americans were here first in general, but with knowing which specific nations made their home in that specific area.

That makes sense, although where I live I can't imagine people not knowing the names of the tribes. They're still here and quite prominent.

 

[Stevicus]

I'd love to ask that, but with our workplace culture it wouldn't go over very well.

I can understand that, although it doesn't seem like it would be politically incorrect to say it. But it just goes to show how so many people pay lip service, yet have no genuine intentions of making amends. For much the same reason, people have observed the persistence of systemic racism, even though it's nearly 60 years since the passage of the Civil Rights Act.

In a nutshell, people didn't really want to put their money where their mouth was.

Now that would be something! On the other end of the spectrum, we recently got an email from a person who apparently objected to us working with a tribe on a project. In his email, he basically said "They are a conquered people who lost a war. The sooner we all accept that fact and stop giving them things, the better."

I would say he's only half right. Yes, they were conquered and lost a war (actually many wars). On the other hand, in winning these wars, our government imposed numerous peace treaties upon them - which the tribes kept, but our government broke.

In any case, once the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, they all became citizens - whether they wanted to or not. Their kids were sent to Indian schools in order to assimilate them to white society.

I'm not sure what the person who wrote that email meant by "giving them things." They're U.S. citizens, so they have the same rights and access to social services as any other citizen. I've done business with and traveled through some of the reservations in my state, and I've seen no visible indication that they're really being given that much.

Same here...a lot of places are named after tribal members or the tribes themselves.

A number of years ago they renamed "Squaw Peak" to "Piestewa Peak." "Squaw" is considered a derogatory term, and people have wanted it changed for quite some time. It's named for Lori Ann Piestewa, who was in the Army and the first Native American woman killed in combat. And she's also a native of Arizona, so it seemed to satisfy those who wanted the name changed, along with those who favor honoring veterans who give their lives in the service of their country.

 

[Stevicus]

If we're going by that measure, then First Nations groups should get all of Michigan.

In the War of 1812, to secure the cooperation of Tecumseh and his warriors, Tecumseh was promised Michigan as an "Indian homeland."

At the end of the war, the British reneged on the promise and agreed to status quo ante bellum.

... but in fairness, the US really should cede Michigan to First Nations groups. After all, the US lost the war.

I would consider that war to be a tie. Nobody won, and nobody lost. True, the British burned Washington, but they were held at Baltimore and totally crushed at New Orleans. The Battle of New Orleans was fought after the Treaty of Ghent was signed, so it didn't really have any effect on the outcome, although it did have a psychological effect in that it strengthened the U.S. position against Spanish claims in the area, and was likely an influential factor in Spain ceding Florida to the U.S. It also strengthened the U.S.'s hand in our ability to enforce the Monroe Doctrine.

I suppose they could cede Michigan, but that would mean giving them Detroit. That would be a horrible thing to do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thank you! That's exactly what it immediately struck me as.

Seems like we need "WWBGD," or What Would Brian Griffen Do? Amd if he'd do it (I have no doubts this is something he'd do) you may want to reconsider because his presence alone breaks "self-righteous douche" detectors.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They are a conquered people who lost a war. The sooner we all accept that fact and stop giving them things, the better."

It's a tragedy these bozos aren't consistently among the least off in society.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would consider that war to be a tie. Nobody won, and nobody lost. True, the British burned Washington, but they were held at Baltimore and totally crushed at New Orleans. The Battle of New Orleans was fought after the Treaty of Ghent was signed, so it didn't really have any effect on the outcome, although it did have a psychological effect in that it strengthened the U.S. position against Spanish claims in the area, and was likely an influential factor in Spain ceding Florida to the U.S. It also strengthened the U.S.'s hand in our ability to enforce the Monroe Doctrine.

I suppose they could cede Michigan, but that would mean giving them Detroit. That would be a horrible thing to do.

The war was an attempted invasion; the invasion was repelled and then some. The US lost.

 

[Stevicus]

The war was an attempted invasion; the invasion was repelled and then some. The US lost.

It was a draw. The British attempted to invade the U.S., and their invasion was repelled and then some.

They also were impressing American sailors into service with the Royal Navy, and they agreed to stop, which was the whole pretext for declaring war in the first place. Since the British no longer harassed U.S. vessels at sea, then the objective had been fulfilled.

 

[Jose Fly]

It's a tragedy these bozos aren't consistently among the least off in society.

It's the anger behind what he wrote that stood out to me. I wanted to contact the guy and ask him what made him so angry. Everyone has their own issues I guess.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's the anger behind what he wrote that stood out to me. I wanted to contact the guy and ask him what made him so angry. Everyone has their own issues I guess.

I'd just guess he's a dumb arseling who's never been made to think of the whys and hows of how he got to where he is.

 

[Jose Fly]

I'd just guess he's a dumb arseling who's never been made to think of the whys and hows of how he got to where he is.

One of those guys who thinks all his success is the result of hard work and natural talent, but any success of "others" must be due to handouts and such.

I've met quite a few people like that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One of those guys who thinks all his success is the result of hard work and natural talent, but any success of "others" must be due to handouts and such.

I've met quite a few people like that.

Not surprised he'd think that. There are tragically too many like that.

 

[Jose Fly]

Not surprised he'd think that. There are tragically too many like that.

And too many of them are related to me!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And too many of them are related to me!

My sympathies. My dad, who comes from a family of redneck hick criminals who mostly leech on the system instead of work, believes that in a peculiar way. And he does harp on about hard work and personal accountability and making good choices while deriding those who basically describe his family, but, of course, when it comes to his family it's entirely different and it's always this and that and definitely not the choices that keep putting them in legal troubles.

 

[Jose Fly]

My sympathies. My dad, who comes from a family of redneck hick criminals who mostly leech on the system instead of work, believes that in a peculiar way. And he does harp on about hard work and personal accountability and making good choices while deriding those who basically describe his family, but, of course, when it comes to his family it's entirely different and it's always this and that and definitely not the choices that keep putting them in legal troubles.

I can relate. It's always someone else's fault. Some folks just seem to love to think themselves the victim. The good thing is, I only see that part of my family every few years or so. That way I can just smile and go "Hmm" when they tell their stories about how terrible they have it and how all "those people" have it so well because of all the "free stuff" they get.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I can relate. It's always someone else's fault. Some folks just seem to love to think themselves the victim. The good thing is, I only see that part of my family every few years or so. That way I can just smile and go "Hmm" when they tell their stories about how terrible they have it and how all "those people" have it so well because of all the "free stuff" they get.

I feel the next big thing for my family is my parents realizing they did actually raise their kids in such as way to make us turn out how we did. Like a line they frequently say "you kids weren't raised to think the rules don't apply." Actually, yeah, we learned that as kids so we could have some semblance of breathing air freely without mom knowing, along with all the mental abuse she piled on.
And my parents and siblings don't see this. I do because psychology is my field and I was able to get a very fresh look and perspective at who my parents are. And then my nieces and nephews see it, but they get the perspective that this is clearly generational, growing up with the internet to research stuff, and more awareness of these things than what past decades knew (they were all born in the 90s and 00s).
But to my parents, it's all people don't want to work, people are lazy, they don't try, they keep popping out kids to get all this money and tons of benefits, and basically every other White Bread Conservative "hate the poor" talking point.

 

[Jose Fly]

I feel the next big thing for my family is my parents realizing they did actually raise their kids in such as way to make us turn out how we did. Like a line they frequently say "you kids weren't raised to think the rules don't apply." Actually, yeah, we learned that as kids so we could have some semblance of breathing air freely without mom knowing, along with all the mental abuse she piled on.

I hope that works out. My parents only (partially) came to that realization very late in life. My dad started regretting things right before he passed away, and my mom still lives mostly in denial. The sad thing is, it still affects her and my brothers.

And my parents and siblings don't see this. I do because psychology is my field and I was able to get a very fresh look and perspective at who my parents are. And then my nieces and nephews see it, but they get the perspective that this is clearly generational, growing up with the internet to research stuff, and more awareness of these things than what past decades knew (they were all born in the 90s and 00s).

I have similar experiences. Like you, I was fortunate enough to see the problems with how we were raised, which helped me overcome them and not repeat them with my own kids. My brothers OTOH weren't so lucky.

It's amazing what even a little bit of information can do.

But to my parents, it's all people don't want to work, people are lazy, they don't try, they keep popping out kids to get all this money and tons of benefits, and basically every other White Bread Conservative "hate the poor" talking point.

Yep, and like you said earlier, that doesn't apply to "their own". We have plenty of family members whose philosophy when it comes to having kids is apparently "early and often", which invariably keeps them from succeeding. But according to the family, their lack of success is someone else's fault....always.

I guess that's how they cope with things not turning out the way they wanted.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's amazing what even a little bit of information can do.

That is very true.