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Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
These are not the options that are available to you regarding the possibility of a "God", however. As you have NO verifying evidence of any kind, for any of the many conceivable possibilities.
We all have a preference for verifying evidence. We just don't have the verifying evidence.
Except that no one is claiming that the Earth is flat, because we all have plenty of verifying evidence that it's spherical.
Sure, it's also how millions of addicts and alcoholics get clean and sober. And how billions of horribly abused, bereaved, and defeated people find the will to go on living. And how billions of others find the will and reasoning to try to be good to others, even when doing so is not always good for them.

It's easy to cherry-pick examples to suit your theological bias. But for every example you pick, there are a thousand more that expose your bias for what it is.
Everyone does, until there is no verifying evidence. Then we have to go on intuition, courage, desire, faith, and the value resulting from action.

These are not the options that are available to you regarding the possibility of a "God", however. As you have NO verifying evidence of any kind, for any of the many conceivable possibilities.

PRECISELY! There is NO verifying evidence for any god, thus it is not reasonable to conclude that there IS any god. There is NO evidence that magical fairies exist, thus is is not reasonable to conclude that there ARE magical fairies. ANY claim that does not have verifiable evidence to back it up should be relegated to things that MIGHT POSSIBLY be, and NOT consider to be things that ARE, unless or until such verifiable evidence becomes available.

Except that no one is claiming that the Earth is flat, because we all have plenty of verifying evidence that it's spherical.

Educate yourself. Simply Google Modern Flat Earth Societies. Do the same on YouTube. You will find plenty of verifiable evidence for people claiming that the Earth is flat.

Everyone does, until there is no verifying evidence. Then we have to go on intuition, courage, desire, faith, and the value resulting from action.

Except that don't HAVE to go on intuition, desire, faith, or the value of resulting from action. When presented with a fantastical claim for which there is no verifiable evidence, rational people can choose to WITHHOLD belief until such evidence is presented. That way you don't end up with ignorant people claiming that the Earth is flat or that God wants them to kill in God's name.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
There is ample evidence that shows the Baha’i Faith is the Cause of God. On the other hand, everyone views evidence differently so not many people will view it as evidence. But that does not mean anything. It is either the Cause of God or not. What people believe has no bearing on that.

Whether a cause has good light or not is not the criteria for trying to extinguish it. People try to extinguish both bad causes and good causes. Good people try to extinguish bad causes such as the Nazis, but bad people try to extinguish religious causes. History demonstrates that.

Go ahead, try to turn it around. You will never succeed except in your own mind. Nobody can find anything in the Writings of Baha’u’llah that is not good for individuals and humanity as a whole, so they go after the UHJ with all kinds of accusations that are unverifiable... Been there, done that, on another forum. Obviously the defamers succeeded in convincing them.

If people do not like the way the Baha’i Faith administration is set up then they can just ignore it because no Baha’is are going to force their beliefs upon anyone.

Why throw stones at a tree with no fruit? If the tree of the Baha’i Faith has no fruit it will wither away and die on its own so it makes no logical sense to waste your time throwing stones at it.

It is said that Queen Victoria, upon reading the Tablet revealed for her by Baha'u'llah, remarked:
"If this is of God, it will endure; if not, it can do no harm." (pdc 65) (18:49)
From: 2nd Coming of Christ by David Yamartino

I find these present day attacks quite comical. The Baha’i Faith has weathered the evils of the Covenant-breakers during the ministry of the Bab, Baha’u’llah, and Abdu’l-Baha and it has reigned victorious. There is no way these piddly little attacks by today’s naysayers can touch the Faith. The Power of the Covenant is our most great protection. Good always triumphs over evil.

It is precisely these attacks that cause the Faith to grow. All these people are doing is adding fuel to the fire because they lead people to the truth.

Nothing I posted was at all personal. It was just a passage written by Abdu’l-Baha. I will answer sincere questions if I have the answer but not accusations of deception that have no merit. That is simply a personal opinion with no verifiable evidence to back it up. It is a twisting of the facts to suit an agenda. Nothing I say is going to make any difference. It just turns into an argument. Besides, I have already stated my position so you know what it is.

I do not know what the Baha’i Faith is going to do in the future and I don’t care. I live fully in the present and don’t think about the future.With a life such as mine, I would be insane if I worried about the future. :eek: I believe Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God so victory is assured. The Covenant of Baha’u’llah will ensure that in this new Day of God will be a day that is not followed by night.

I never said anything about best. At the most, I have only said that the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is the most current, the newest one. That is just a fact and since this is a religious forum I see no reason to keep it a secret.

I never attacked anyone; not atheists or believers of any other religion. I just share what I believe. For five years on forums I have been the target of virulent attacks just because I believe in Baha’u’llah. The attacks come from Christians Jews and nonbelievers. On one forum they even put me in solitary confinement,limited to posting on one thread called “Baha’i.” Meanwhile the Christians had free reign to say whatever they wanted to. Everyone wondered why I did not just leave. I was the only Baha’i willing to take that kind of abuse. What they did not understand is that, as Baha’u’llah wrote, my calamity is my providence. Outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy.

I never called anyone a liar. I just posted what Abdu’l-Baha wrote about the calumniators that have appeared in of every age, whenever a new religion is revealed.

....... another long long rant........

I won't answer all that, sentence by sentence, para by para.... it's enough to say that if you write to tell that you have faith in something then most members will acknowledge your faith, but if you try to sell your faith or write any drivvle about it then you've got to expect honest replies to correct any rubbish claims that might be made.

And it's no good trying to condemn all the folks who give Bahai a good shaking as liars, because many of them know a great deal about it all, and just want to warn about it.

You folks quote Victoria as if she said something wonderful about Bahai..... her advisors were diplomats who knew how to write double-think......... no wonder you all clutch to it as you do.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Did God speak is the question? Or did Luke make the story up? If God spoke audibly then several people heard him.
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Luke was describing what happened to Jesus when God communicated to Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
God does not speak in an audible Voice that people can hear. The Manifestations of God can hear from God but we cannot understand how they hear it or what it sounds like to Them...

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Which brings us all the way back to the beginning. If this god refuses to provide evidence that is valid for ME then clearly this god has no desire for me to believe in it.
God provides the same evidence for everyone, His Messenger... God does not run a catering company so God is not going to provide evidence especially tailored to your needs.... Here are the God 101 reasons why:

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

God needs nothing from humans because God is fully self-sufficient... God does not desire that you believe in Him for His sake, God only desires you believe in Him for your sake.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings, p. 140
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
....... another long long rant........

I won't answer all that, sentence by sentence, para by para.... it's enough to say that if you write to tell that you have faith in something then most members will acknowledge your faith, but if you try to sell your faith or write any drivvle about it then you've got to expect honest replies to correct any rubbish claims that might be made.

And it's no good trying to condemn all the folks who give Bahai a good shaking as liars, because many of them know a great deal about it all, and just want to warn about it.

You folks quote Victoria as if she said something wonderful about Bahai..... her advisors were diplomats who knew how to write double-think......... no wonder you all clutch to it as you do.
I am not trying to sell anything. I just respond to posts. I have a right to believe what I do, just like anyone else has a right to believe what they do or to disbelieve what they do.

You are the one with the rant. I just share what I believe, courteously and with respect for other people. Do you see me complaining about any replies I get? Do you see me condemning anyone?

However, I will correct false information about my religion because that is what Baha'u'llah enjoined me to do.

“Warn, O Salmán, the beloved of the one true God, not to view with too critical an eye the sayings and writings of men. Let them rather approach such sayings and writings in a spirit of open-mindedness and loving sympathy. Those men, however, who, in this Day, have been led to assail, in their inflammatory writings, the tenets of the Cause of God, are to be treated differently. It is incumbent upon all men, each according to his ability, to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Powerful, the Almighty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
It's rather simple.

...Cellphones.

I'm sure you know how intrusive a direct conversation with a random person is. So, unless you invite God to speak with you, God probably won't. That's why typically the people in the suckiest positions tend to have a close relationship with God, they're like constantly "God help!" all the time.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So what are all the criminal laws, judicial punishments, world police etc etc force for?
Double Think!


So why did Bahauallah write laws like your treasure trove laws, which would be enforced by your houses of justice?
He wrote legislation that will NEVER EVER be used?
Double Think!


Deception exists about the Bab's ideas, writings and following.
Deception exists around the thousands of killings in Iran.
Deception exists about nearly every aspect of Bahai!
Double Think!



It cannot apply to Bahais if Bahais must obey their own country's laws!
Double Think!


And so all the witnesses, testimonies and evidence that you don't like.... you wish to ban .............
Total denial, and .........
Double Think!
So all these laws are for Baha'is only apparently? Are they expecting a lot of criminal activity within the Baha'i community? But strangely, they expect to be in the majority, yet not force Baha'i laws on everybody? They, supposedly, have God's perfect law, and they are going to let a minority secular society run the government and make imperfect secular laws?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Luke was describing what happened to Jesus when God communicated to Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
God does not speak in an audible Voice that people can hear. The Manifestations of God can hear from God but we cannot understand how they hear it or what it sounds like to Them...

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104
For some reason, I doubt it happened. But, I believe Christians think God did speak with an audible voice.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That's what I would assume. But, it's God communicating with people that weren't manifestations.
That is a valid point. I am not proficient in the Bible, let alone the Old Testament, so I do not know what these Prophets claimed. As far as the "official" Bahai position, I do not know if there is one. All I know is the chapter from Some Answered Questions: 43: THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS

In that chapter, it does not say that the Prophets in the Old Testament could not have received some kind of communication from God but rather that they did not receive a full revelation from God, as did the independent Prophets (the Manifestations of God) and they did this not establish a new religion.

"The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun......
With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets."
Some Answered Questions, pp. 164-165
 

PureX

Veteran Member
There is NO verifying evidence for any god, thus it is not reasonable to conclude that there IS any god.
This is a false conclusion based on a false assumption: that having no verifying evidence is verifying evidence. It's not.
Simply Google Modern Flat Earth Societies. Do the same on YouTube. You will find plenty of verifiable evidence for people claiming that the Earth is flat.
Those are a joke. No one actually believes any of it.
... until there is no verifying evidence. Then we have to go on intuition, courage, desire, faith, and the value resulting from action.
Except that don't we HAVE to go on intuition, desire, faith, or the value of resulting from action.
No, we could just go with an unacknowledged and unexamined bias. But it seems to me that even that would have to be the result of some sort of character impulse.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
For some reason, I doubt it happened. But, I believe Christians think God did speak with an audible voice.
You doubt that God spoke to Jesus through the Holy Spirit, or you doubt that God spoke with an audible voice?
Do Christians believe that God spoke to Jesus audibly as opposed to telepathically?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
You can talk to God whenever you want to, but if you think you are getting answers back, that is just your imagination. God does not talk to anyone except His Messengers.
You fail to understand that I have as much evidence for being a messenger as your guy does. Why believe him and not me?

God did His job when He sent Baha’u’llah with a message.
A business owner who never shows up at work will lose that business.

It is the job of humans to recognize Baha’u’llah since God gave them free will.
Why should I recognize him? I know the state of things post 19th century and, like Jesus, there wasn't much done. Humanity started improving things on their own. No divine messenger has ever succeeded in making a "heaven on earth", so to speak.

I believe in Jesus when he said I had to judge a tree by its fruit. The problem arose when I judged HIS tree.

I know. The contract is between God and humanity. Both God and humanity have obligations. God’s obligation is never to leave man alone, so God sends Messengers. Humans are obligated to recognize those Messengers. That is their part of the contract.
My father had court-appointed visitation rights. Eventually, it got to the point where he wanted to send his new wife's son to come get us and he would work on the weekends and we were essentially just there for unpaid labor. Sorry that I'm not going to agree that dumping one's children off on other children is the same thing as parenting.

However, much of humanity has failed to keep up their end of the bargain since most people reject the new Messenger God sends when He first appears and for a long time afterwards.
They are rejected usually because they don't stand up to scrutiny. That's not our fault.

I believe that a messenger should welcome having things analyzed scientifically and anything that doesn't pass muster should be thrown out. Any messenger ... ANY ... MESSENGER ... who claims that he or she or they must be recognized or followed should be automatically under suspicion because life doesn't revolve around them.

I mean, I amuse myself with the thought that you don't follow ME, but then again, I wouldn't want you to, because my message IS "don't trust random people and look it up for yourself." I can't really find a flaw in that message, can you?

We know exactly who wrote the Writings of Baha’u’llah, since He wrote them in His Own Pen.
He lived in the 19th century, so I doubt you witnessed it personally.

They are chosen because they have special qualifications, a universal divine mind and heavenly intellectual power, so their mind is capable of embracing and understanding things no ordinary human can understand. It has nothing to do with anatomy.
You can't choose a fish to climb a tree. It has to be born with the capacity for it. So, yes, they have to have the right parts for it, which makes it less a "choosing" than a "well, it works".

They are another order of God’s creation, a Being in between a man and a God.
They are just people. Talented people, at most, but still people. Remember that (and I know you claim not to believe the bible) in Genesis, like in other global myths, godhood could be attained through eating magic things. The standard for godhood is pretty low.

In fact Baha’u’llah wrote that he did not care if anyone believed in Him or not
And that's why people should join his religion? God will look down on them if they don't?

No, it is the humans that need to man up for their laziness.
Both sides are being lazy. That doesn't absolve God.

God did His job when He sent Baha’u’llah.
Delegating a messenger instead of doing Your job Yourself every several centuries is NOT doing Your job. God may be eternal but WE aren't, so things that need fixing need fixing NOW.

it because God is never going to send private messages to everyone
If He doesn't care about everyone then He shouldn't get irritable when others decide they got tired of waiting for a no-show.

I mean, I don't know how it is everywhere, but usually after three absences, you can count yourself fired without a doctor's excuse or something like that.

You cannot blame God for that, but you can blame the Baha’is for not getting God’s message out to everyone.
But they aren't THE MESSENGER. THE MESSENGER had ONE job....

I cannot read Persian and Arabic. The Tablets were translated from their original languages into English by the authorized translator and compiled in books. They are exactly what Baha’u’llah wrote.
So, you don't, then.

Like people who read the bible, you are a slave to what others tell you it says.

Religious people reject the “new” Messenger of God when He comes because they are “emotionally attached” to their older Messengers (e.g., Moses, Jesus).
Sacrifice your belief in your guy and go follow a new messenger. There are lots of them. Pick one (or many). I don't care.

If people err in not recognizing Baha’u’llah, how on earth could that ever be considered God’s fault? God gave man free will to choose to believe in Baha’u’llah or not. People are responsible for their own choices.
So let's say I hire a cashier who can't count money. Per YOUR logic, that's the customer's fault.

If God did that God would be taking away everyone’s ability to choose if they want the message or not.
Just because a thought pops into your head doesn't mean you have to follow it.

The only reason that they think God should communicate directly with everyone is because they want God to do that, like a little boy wants a new bicycle from daddy.
NO ... THEY ... WANT ... INTERACTION ... FROM ... PARENT. I mean, if you have a kid and they ask for a drink of water, are you seriously going to go into another room and act like they are asking for a new car?

A parent's JOB is to parent. A manager's JOB is to manage. God can't even be said to be phoning it in per your religion. That's just neglect.

Why can’t we acquire the information ourselves?
Because you keep saying people CAN'T.

God wants belief to be a free choice. That is one reason God uses Messengers.
Do messengers have the option not to get the message? Does God care about THEIR free will?

The other reason is because it is far more efficient and is better for humanity collectively, since everyone can read the same exact scriptures and form a religious community. That would not happen if everyone got their own direct message. It would be helter skelter.
LOL. The irony meter is off the charts.

You know, it's funny: you take such stock in a source that doesn't even claim to be the writings, just "gleanings". To base the status of your soul on what sounds from the title like a Cliff Notes is just ... well, you do you, I guess.

He is another order of creation above an ordinary human being so He is beyond human comprehension.
Just because something might take awhile to figure out doesn't make it beyond comprehension. My dogs can't open cabinet doors. That I can doesn't make a god.

Of course the Messenger told me.
You're really, REALLY old. I hope you have good health insurance. Which one of the Guinness Book of Records for Oldest People are you?

You sure are fixated on evidence.
People interested in the Truth ARE.

God does not run a catering company so God is not going to provide evidence especially tailored to your needs
Gideon - Wikipedia

He has before. Why stop now?

Gideon had Him jumping through enough hoops to qualify Him for Ninja Warrior. :p

He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.
Then there's nothing stopping Him from figuring out how to speak to everyone and why that's important from our perspective as human beings.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
So all these laws are for Baha'is only apparently? Are they expecting a lot of criminal activity within the Baha'i community? But strangely, they expect to be in the majority, yet not force Baha'i laws on everybody? They, supposedly, have God's perfect law, and they are going to let a minority secular society run the government and make imperfect secular laws?

Hi..........
In a Bahai World things would be very very dodgy for non-bahais, I reckon.

Bahai legislation and criminal law does carry the death penalty, and there would be a Bahai Police Force. Right now we read the outrage and accusations that Bahai raises against critics, and this causes me to wonder what, in a Bahai World, Bahai Houses of Justice might decide to do about such critics...... would protesting about Bahai be a capital offence?

When folks are convinced that they alone are acting for God they can become very very dangerous.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You can talk to God whenever you want to, but if you think you are getting answers back, that is just your imagination. God does not talk to anyone except His Messengers.
You fail to understand that I have as much evidence for being a messenger as your guy does. Why believe him and not me?
What is your evidence?
God did His job when He sent Baha’u’llah with a message.
A business owner who never shows up at work will lose that business.
God showed up in the Person of Baha’u’llah. Before that, God showed up as Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, and before that God showed up as other Messenegrs. God never leaves man alone.
It is the job of humans to recognize Baha’u’llah since God gave them free will.
Why should I recognize him? I know the state of things post 19th century and, like Jesus, there wasn't much done. Humanity started improving things on their own. No divine messenger has ever succeeded in making a "heaven on earth", so to speak.
No, it has never been the job of a divine messenger to do anything Himself... He just received the message and passed it along to humanity... Then humanity makes the improvements. Humanity started making those improvements because Baha’u’llah came. The fact that people don’t know that is irrelevant.

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life." Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72
I believe in Jesus when he said I had to judge a tree by its fruit. The problem arose when I judged HIS tree.
What is wrong with the tree of Jesus? You cannot judge Jesus by Christianity. They strayed far from the tree.
I know. The contract is between God and humanity. Both God and humanity have obligations. God’s obligation is never to leave man alone, so God sends Messengers. Humans are obligated to recognize those Messengers. That is their part of the contract.
My father had court-appointed visitation rights. Eventually, it got to the point where he wanted to send his new wife's son to come get us and he would work on the weekends and we were essentially just there for unpaid labor. Sorry that I'm not going to agree that dumping one's children off on other children is the same thing as parenting.
I do not see any correlation. God Himself cannot ever show up on earth. That is insane. God can only manifest Himself as a man, a Messenger.

However, much of humanity has failed to keep up their end of the bargain since most people reject the new Messenger God sends when He first appears and for a long time afterwards.
They are rejected usually because they don't stand up to scrutiny. That's not our fault.
No, that is not why they are rejected. They are rejected by believers of the older religions because they are emotionally attached to their older Messengers. They are rejected by nonbelievers because they don’t like the idea of Messengers, but they can offer no rational explanation why.
I believe that a messenger should welcome having things analyzed scientifically and anything that doesn't pass muster should be thrown out. Any messenger ... ANY ... MESSENGER ... who claims that he or she or they must be recognized or followed should be automatically under suspicion because life doesn't revolve around them.
You believe right. Anyone who claims to be Messenger of God should be under close scrutiny. Baha’u’llah said that:

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8
I mean, I amuse myself with the thought that you don't follow ME, but then again, I wouldn't want you to, because my message IS "don't trust random people and look it up for yourself." I can't really find a flaw in that message, can you?
No, there is no flaw in that... That is what we are enjoined to do... That is the first principle of the Baha’i Faith, called Independent Investigation of Truth...

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.
We know exactly who wrote the Writings of Baha’u’llah, since He wrote them in His Own Pen.
He lived in the 19th century, so I doubt you witnessed it personally.
Of course not, only a few people of that time witnessed Him writing personally, but the Writings have been authenticated by modern technology so we know they are originals.

They are chosen because they have special qualifications, a universal divine mind and heavenly intellectual power, so their mind is capable of embracing and understanding things no ordinary human can understand. It has nothing to do with anatomy.

You can't choose a fish to climb a tree. It has to be born with the capacity for it. So, yes, they have to have the right parts for it, which makes it less a "choosing" than a "well, it works".
They were chosen by God because they had the special qualifications to do the work that was necessary. The proof is that all the Messengers achieved their purpose.
They are another order of God’s creation, a Being in between a man and a God.
They are just people. Talented people, at most, but still people. Remember that (and I know you claim not to believe the bible) in Genesis, like in other global myths, godhood could be attained through eating magic things. The standard for godhood is pretty low.
You can believe that if you want to, but if they had not been more ythan people they would not have been able to do what they did.
In fact Baha’u’llah wrote that he did not care if anyone believed in Him or not.
And that's why people should join his religion? God will look down on them if they don't?
That is not what I said. I said that Baha’u’llah did what He did for God, not for Himself. God does not need us to believe in Him because God is fully self-sufficient.
No, it is the humans that need to man up for their laziness.
Both sides are being lazy. That doesn't absolve God.
An Omnipotent/Omniscient/Infallible God is not in need of being absolved by humans. That is backwards. God cannot make a mistake. Only humans make mistakes. God cannot be lazy. Only humans can be lazy.

God did His job when He sent Baha’u’llah.

Delegating a messenger instead of doing Your job Yourself every several centuries is NOT doing Your job. God may be eternal but WE aren't, so things that need fixing need fixing NOW.
God sent Baha’u’llah with a message that has the information that is is needed for humanity to fix what needs fixing for at least 1000 years. Any time after that another Messenger could be sent with whatever will be necessary at that time.
it because God is never going to send private messages to everyone.
If He doesn't care about everyone then He shouldn't get irritable when others decide they got tired of waiting for a no-show.
I mean, I don't know how it is everywhere, but usually after three absences, you can count yourself fired without a doctor's excuse or something like that.
God Himself cannot ever show up on earth. That is insane. God can only manifest Himself as a man, a Messenger. God is not irritable. Only humans get irritable.

(Continued on next post)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You cannot blame God for that, but you can blame the Baha’is for not getting God’s message out to everyone.
But they aren't THE MESSENGER. THE MESSENGER had ONE job....
The MESSENGER of God had one job. His job was to record what God communicated to Him in the scriptures and to gain a following during His lifetime... The MESSENGER cannot do anything on earth after He is dead. After His death, the Baha’is are responsible to pass His message along to other people.
I cannot read Persian and Arabic. The Tablets were translated from their original languages into English by the authorized translator and compiled in books. They are exactly what Baha’u’llah wrote.
So, you don't, then.
Like people who read the bible, you are a slave to what others tell you it says.
No, I am not a slave to anything. I just read the English translation. Everyone on earth cannot speak Persian and Arabic. It is not like the Bible because I am reading a translation from original writings of the Messenger.
Religious people reject the “new” Messenger of God when He comes because they are “emotionally attached” to their older Messengers (e.g., Moses, Jesus).
Sacrifice your belief in your guy and go follow a new messenger. There are lots of them. Pick one (or many). I don't care.
There are no other Messengers of God and there won’t be any before the year 2852.

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p. 346
If people err in not recognizing Baha’u’llah, how on earth could that ever be considered God’s fault? God gave man free will to choose to believe in Baha’u’llah or not. People are responsible for their own choices.
So let's say I hire a cashier who can't count money. Per YOUR logic, that's the customer's fault.
There is no correlation. Baha’u’llah did His job correctly. It is in no way God’s fault that people did not recognize Him and follow Him.
If God did that God would be taking away everyone’s ability to choose if they want the message or not.
Just because a thought pops into your head doesn't mean you have to follow it.
But if God pops it into your head no sane person would reject it. God does not want lazy people who can’t do their own work to believe in Him.
The only reason that they think God should communicate directly with everyone is because they want God to do that, like a little boy wants a new bicycle from daddy.
NO ... THEY ... WANT ... INTERACTION ... FROM ... PARENT. I mean, if you have a kid and they ask for a drink of water, are you seriously going to go into another room and act like they are asking for a new car?
God is not your parent. God is God. God does not interact with anyone except His Messengers. God does not give people what they want. God gives people what they need. Any good parent does the same.
A parent's JOB is to parent. A manager's JOB is to manage. God can't even be said to be phoning it in per your religion. That's just neglect.
God is not responsible for phoning anything in. God does not have a phone. The Baha’is are responsible for talking to other people because God gave them that responsibility through what Baha’u’llah wrote.
Why can’t we acquire the information ourselves?
Because you keep saying people CAN'T.
I did not say that. I said they could acquire it by reading what Baha’u’llah wrote.
God wants belief to be a free choice. That is one reason God uses Messengers.
Do messengers have the option not to get the message? Does God care about THEIR free will?
That is not relevant because they were chosen by God to receive the message and deliver it to us. We are not chosen so we have to choose. Theoretically, they could have chosen to reject God but they never do because they know it is God.
The other reason is because it is far more efficient and is better for humanity collectively, since everyone can read the same exact scriptures and form a religious community. That would not happen if everyone got their own direct message. It would be helter skelter.
LOL. The irony meter is off the charts.
There is nothing ironic about that because there is no helter skelter in the Baha’i Faith communities. It works as smooth as silk, because everyone is on the same page regarding Baha’u’llah and His Message.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 177
You know, it's funny: you take such stock in a source that doesn't even claim to be the writings, just "gleanings". To base the status of your soul on what sounds from the title like a Cliff Notes is just ... well, you do you, I guess.
Do you know why the book is called Gleanings? Because it is an extraction of information from various Tablets of Baha’u’llah, so it is the original writings... from the Introduction of Gleanings:

“Gleanings is excerpts from various Tablets. In the introduction to Gleanings it explains how it is organized into five parts. Part one, pages 1-46, proclaims this as the “Day of God.” Part two, pages 46-136, concerns the Manifestation of God and His significance. Part three, pages 136-200, deals with basic questions concerning the soul and its immortality. Part four, pages 200-259, concerns the spiritual aspects of the World Order and the Most Great Peace. Part five, pages 259-346, deals with the duties of the individual and the spiritual meaning of life.” Gleanings
He is another order of creation above an ordinary human being so He is beyond human comprehension.
Just because something might take awhile to figure out doesn't make it beyond comprehension. My dogs can't open cabinet doors. That I can doesn't make a god.
What the Messengers are able to do is beyond human comprehension just as reading is beyond a dog’s comprehension.
Of course the Messenger told me.
You're really, REALLY old. I hope you have good health insurance. Which one of the Guinness Book of Records for Oldest People are you?
He told me in the Tablets. I do not need to have a face to face. I know He wrote it. That is incontrovertible. Exhibition of Baha’u’llah’s Writings Opens at British Museum
You sure are fixated on evidence.
People interested in the Truth ARE.
It’s a good thing we have a lot of evidence then. Too bad some people do not bother to look at it, so they will never know the Truth from God.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103
God does not run a catering company so God is not going to provide evidence especially tailored to your needs
Gideon - Wikipedia
He has before. Why stop now?
Gideon had Him jumping through enough hoops to qualify Him for Ninja Warrior.
C:\Users\Susan2\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif
God jumps through no hoops for anyone.... EVER. If God chose to offer proofs that was God’s choice.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73
He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.
Then there's nothing stopping Him from figuring out how to speak to everyone and why that's important from our perspective as human beings.
I guess you MISSED the whole point of the quote. God does ONLY what God wants to do, not what YOU want Him to do. God does not want to speak to everyone, which is why God doesn’t do so. Speaking to everyone is not important to God, it is only important to some humans. That is not God’s problem.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I am not trying to sell anything. I just respond to posts. I have a right to believe what I do, just like anyone else has a right to believe what they do or to disbelieve what they do.
When and if you write in the hopes of winning converts, then that's a 'sell'.
Telling that Bahauallah is the only present manifestation of God is a bit pushy....

Do you see me complaining about any replies I get? Do you see me condemning anyone?
So when you call critics LIARS....... that's just a term of endearment?
A lot that I hear from Bahais is very dodgy though...... needs putting right.,

However, I will correct false information about my religion because that is what Baha'u'llah enjoined me to do.
...... and some out there will be correcting any Bahai false claims and/or deceptions as well......

I read your quote from Bahauallah......... a terrifying prophesy about how future critics would be treated in a Bahai World.......... you don't see it, maybe because you're blind to it, but others here might see it. Let's have a look.....

..................Those men, however, who, in this Day, have been led to assail, in their inflammatory writings, the tenets of the Cause of God, are to be treated differently. It is incumbent upon all men, each according to his ability, to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Powerful, the Almighty.” ..........

Critics Treated differently? Wow! A Bahai World might make George Orwell's ideas look like fun-at-the-fair.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
You fail to understand that I have as much evidence for being a messenger as your guy does. Why believe him and not me?


A business owner who never shows up at work will lose that business.


Why should I recognize him? I know the state of things post 19th century and, like Jesus, there wasn't much done. Humanity started improving things on their own. No divine messenger has ever succeeded in making a "heaven on earth", so to speak.

I believe in Jesus when he said I had to judge a tree by its fruit. The problem arose when I judged HIS tree.


My father had court-appointed visitation rights. Eventually, it got to the point where he wanted to send his new wife's son to come get us and he would work on the weekends and we were essentially just there for unpaid labor. Sorry that I'm not going to agree that dumping one's children off on other children is the same thing as parenting.


They are rejected usually because they don't stand up to scrutiny. That's not our fault.

I believe that a messenger should welcome having things analyzed scientifically and anything that doesn't pass muster should be thrown out. Any messenger ... ANY ... MESSENGER ... who claims that he or she or they must be recognized or followed should be automatically under suspicion because life doesn't revolve around them.

I mean, I amuse myself with the thought that you don't follow ME, but then again, I wouldn't want you to, because my message IS "don't trust random people and look it up for yourself." I can't really find a flaw in that message, can you?


He lived in the 19th century, so I doubt you witnessed it personally.


You can't choose a fish to climb a tree. It has to be born with the capacity for it. So, yes, they have to have the right parts for it, which makes it less a "choosing" than a "well, it works".


They are just people. Talented people, at most, but still people. Remember that (and I know you claim not to believe the bible) in Genesis, like in other global myths, godhood could be attained through eating magic things. The standard for godhood is pretty low.


And that's why people should join his religion? God will look down on them if they don't?


Both sides are being lazy. That doesn't absolve God.


Delegating a messenger instead of doing Your job Yourself every several centuries is NOT doing Your job. God may be eternal but WE aren't, so things that need fixing need fixing NOW.


If He doesn't care about everyone then He shouldn't get irritable when others decide they got tired of waiting for a no-show.

I mean, I don't know how it is everywhere, but usually after three absences, you can count yourself fired without a doctor's excuse or something like that.


But they aren't THE MESSENGER. THE MESSENGER had ONE job....


So, you don't, then.

Like people who read the bible, you are a slave to what others tell you it says.


Sacrifice your belief in your guy and go follow a new messenger. There are lots of them. Pick one (or many). I don't care.


So let's say I hire a cashier who can't count money. Per YOUR logic, that's the customer's fault.


Just because a thought pops into your head doesn't mean you have to follow it.


NO ... THEY ... WANT ... INTERACTION ... FROM ... PARENT. I mean, if you have a kid and they ask for a drink of water, are you seriously going to go into another room and act like they are asking for a new car?

A parent's JOB is to parent. A manager's JOB is to manage. God can't even be said to be phoning it in per your religion. That's just neglect.


Because you keep saying people CAN'T.


Do messengers have the option not to get the message? Does God care about THEIR free will?


LOL. The irony meter is off the charts.


You know, it's funny: you take such stock in a source that doesn't even claim to be the writings, just "gleanings". To base the status of your soul on what sounds from the title like a Cliff Notes is just ... well, you do you, I guess.


Just because something might take awhile to figure out doesn't make it beyond comprehension. My dogs can't open cabinet doors. That I can doesn't make a god.


You're really, REALLY old. I hope you have good health insurance. Which one of the Guinness Book of Records for Oldest People are you?


People interested in the Truth ARE.


Gideon - Wikipedia

He has before. Why stop now?

Gideon had Him jumping through enough hoops to qualify Him for Ninja Warrior. :p


Then there's nothing stopping Him from figuring out how to speak to everyone and why that's important from our perspective as human beings.

Hi..........
The first Bahai Prophet wrote about keeping certain cities just for Bahais and turning everybody else out of them. He also mentioned that Bahais should turn non-believers out of their homes if those Bahais wanted same for themselves ...... Mid Eastern folks who can translate these writings can tell of them today, thanks to jolly old IT.

And I do wonder if, in a Bahai Word, these same holy writings might not be taken from the archives for 'activation'?

Would you choose the streets or the woods for your home? :p
 
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