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Why doesn't God stop evil, pain and suffering?

Beaudreaux

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
idea said:
Sri Lanka has a reputation as a pedophile’s paradise. In 1997, it was considered the principle. source of child pornography for the United States and Europe ...
http://www.childtrafficking.com/Docs/protection_project_2002_trafficking_sri_lanka.pdf

42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
(New Testament | Mark9:42)

Choices, choices, I see choices.

Now I am not saying that every natural disaster is a result of people being horribly evil, in some cases it is sin, in some cases it is not:

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
(New Testament | John9:2 - 3)

God gives us the experiences we need in order to grow - what experiences we require - that is up to us, if we would grow without experiences, then great, it will be less painful for us. Be grateful that we are given what we need to grow, and not left to wallow in our unformed state.


This life is not the only place to grow... Children in horrible places, God would be horrible to leave them there, to not gather them back up to heaven.
Click to expand...

:eek:.....OK, let me get this straight. Sri Lanka is a source of child pornography, so you believe God allowed 225,000 people to die painfully because of this. You do understand that MANY MANY MANY of those people had nothing to do with child pornography, right? It is also HIGHLY unikely that 100% of them were aware that Sri Lanka was a "pedophile's paradise".

But let's follow this argument to itsnatural and ridiculous conclusion. For free will to be involved in the deaths of people from natural disaster as you argue, then every single person who has died from earthauake, plague, drought, Tsunami, Hurricane/Cyclone, Tornado, or any other natural disaster MADE SOME CHOICE THAT CAUSED THEM TO DESERVE IT or were in such a bad situation that God essentially euthanized them.

Dude.... how many mental backflips are you willing to do to keep believing this stuff? What will you say to the friend in grief who asks you why God let his infant daughter die? Will you say she either deserved it or God knew she would have a horrible life so he let her die?
 
Beaudreaux

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
Freelancer7 said:
It is not the people who love, who harmonise religion in a loving way that create a world of suffering, dig deeper Alla Prima.
Click to expand...
That's not what Alla Prima is saying here, and I think that is clear from his post. He is saying the God created a world in which people suffer and he either does not want to stop that suffering or he is not capable of stopping it.
 
Beaudreaux

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
Spiritone said:
Yes, there are many reasons supposed by different people. Here are a few:
The Universe operates by physical laws that mostly can not be changed and God gave us free will to choose. Maybe if we/humanity were to accept the will of the Creator instead of too often opposing it all would be well and suffering would cease.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and mabye monkeys will come flying out of my butt. :)

Sorry. Maybe is not an argument.
 
starlite

starlite

Texasgirl
Beaudreaux said:
So, why is he torturing us now? If there can be a world withouth pain and suffering, why does God put us in one where AIDS kills babies and good people starve to death? He could stop it but he doesn't. Why?
Click to expand...

To me, this is "why".....
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Logically God is the Sovereign of the universe [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]by reason of his Creatorship, his Godship, and his supremacy as the Almighty. He is the Owner of all things and the Source of all authority and power, the Supreme Ruler. (Ps 24:1;Ps 103 :19) The rulers of the nations of earth exercise their limited rulership by the toleration or permission of God. As to such authorities’ being “placed in their relative positions by God,” the Scriptures indicate that this does not mean that God formed these governments or that he backs them up. Rather, he has maneuvered them to suit his purpose, with relation to his will concerning his servants in the earth. Wickedness has been in existence for nearly all the years that Bible chronology indicates man has been on the earth. All mankind have been dying, and sins and transgressions against God have multiplied. (Ro 5:12, 15, 16) Since the Bible indicates that God gave man a perfect start, the questions have arisen: How did sin, imperfection, and wickedness get their start? And why has the Almighty God allowed these things to remain for centuries? The answers lie in a challenge against God’s sovereignty that brought forth an important issue involving all mankind. [/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
What was challenged? Who was reproached and defamed by this challenge of the angel who was later called Satan the Devil, which challenge Adam supported by his rebellious act? Was it the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]fact[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of God's [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]supremacy,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] the existence of his [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]sovereignty?[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Was God’s sovereignty in danger? No, for God has supreme authority and power, and no one in heaven or earth can take this away. The challenge therefore must have been of the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]rightfulness,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]deservedness,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]and[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]righteousness[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of God’s sovereignty—whether his sovereignty was exercised righteously, and for the best interests of his subjects or not. An indication of this is the approach to Eve: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” Here the Serpent intimated that such a thing was unbelievable—that God was unduly restrictive, withholding something that was the rightful due of the human pair.(Ge 3:1) The settling of the issue was actually a matter vital to all of us, as respects our relationship to God’s sovereignty. For, once settled, such an issue would never need to be tried again. God has allowed a time for this world and its god, Satan the Devil, to exist and develop in it's wickedness, and He has set a time for it's destruction. Bible prophecy let's us know that the time for the end of man's rule is near and that man definitely does not have the ability to rule himself independent of God. (Jer.10:23) And just think...we, as individuals, can have a share in the vindication of God's sovereignty. (Pr 27:11) [/FONT]​

“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But, why has it taken so long” you might ask? From Job’s day to Jesus’ might seem like a long time for suffering to continue—some 1,600 years. For a human, 100 years would appear a long time to wait for suffering to end. But we must recognize that the key issues that Satan raised reflected negatively on the Creator. In God’s view the subsequent allowance of suffering and wickedness has been brief. To our heavenly Father 'a thousand years are but as yesterday when it is past.’ ( Psalm 90:4) [/FONT]​
 
Beaudreaux

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
Storm said:
You're arguing a strawman. No one is saying that suffering causes happiness, that would be stupid. We're saying that the existence of suffering enables, or at least deepens happiness. It's about the balance of Creation.

OK, reading that back, it's not even clear to me. Before continuing with the debate, can you let me know if you at least understand what I'm trying to say?
Click to expand...

Well, I do think I understand where you and some others on this thread are going. I went down a similar path when I was a Christian. The question we are debating is a very old one. In theological terms it is called "theodicy". There are only 4 ways that I know of to solve it and none of them sits well with me. The first three involve getting rid of one of the three statements we make about God. Namely:
  • God is omnipotent
  • God is Good
  • Evil and suffering are real
Approach one - God is not omnipotent
God is powerful, but not omnipotent. There is a battle between good and evil and God is doing his best, but Satan is also powerful and he wins some battles.

Approach 2 - God is not Good
To say God is Good is to misunderstand God. He is the ultimate being and lawgiver. A better approach is to say "Good is God". That is, everything God does is good, including allowing infants to die of AIDS.

Approach 3 - Evil and Suffering are not real (This is the approach I think you are taking, Spirit)
There is no such thing as evil and suffering per se because you cannot have good without evil and happiness without saddness. All experiences are simply measured in degrees of goodness/happiness. Some things are really good/happy, some are less good/happy, but none are evil/suffering. Another corollary of this that all suffering has a silver lining because you become stronger/appreciate a sunset more/etc.

Approach 4 - Mystery
We are only human and cannot understand the mystery that is God. Sure, it seems like he allows terrible suffering while claiming to be good and able to stop it, but just know...He HAS his reasons! You gotta have faith man.

Reasons I don't buy any of these:

Approach 1 - If God is not all powerful, then why should I worship him? Why do the scriptures lie? How is he different from the Devil who might actually win this battle?

Approach 2 - If allowing babies to die of AIDS when you could prevent it is good, I am not interested.

Approach 3 - The Bible claims that God is preparing a place for us where there will be no pain, no suffering and no death. If God can make heaven, then don't tell me we can't have happiness without suffering and life without death.

Approach 4 - Don't p*ss on me and tell me it's raining.
 
Freelancer7

Freelancer7

Active Member
Beaudreaux said:
That's not what Alla Prima is saying here, and I think that is clear from his post. He is saying the God created a world in which people suffer and he either does not want to stop that suffering or he is not capable of stopping it.
Click to expand...

I thought you were created in Gods image?
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Beaudreaux said:
Well, I do think I understand where you and some others on this thread are going. I went down a similar path when I was a Christian. The question we are debating is a very old one. In theological terms it is called "theodicy". There are only 4 ways that I know of to solve it and none of them sits well with me. The first three involve getting rid of one of the three statements we make about God. Namely:
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know what theodicy is: My Abrahamic Theodicy

Approach 4 - Don't p*ss on me and tell me it's raining.
Click to expand...
"My boots." It's "don't p*** on my boots and tell me it's raining."

Anyway, if you understand the point, kindly address it and stop failing at strawmen.
 
Beaudreaux

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
starlite said:
To me, this is "why".....
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Logically God is the Sovereign of the universe [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]by reason of his Creatorship, his Godship, and his supremacy as the Almighty. He is the Owner of all things and the Source of all authority and power, the Supreme Ruler. (Ps 24:1;Ps 103 :19) The rulers of the nations of earth exercise their limited rulership by the toleration or permission of God. As to such authorities’ being “placed in their relative positions by God,” the Scriptures indicate that this does not mean that God formed these governments or that he backs them up. Rather, he has maneuvered them to suit his purpose, with relation to his will concerning his servants in the earth. Wickedness has been in existence for nearly all the years that Bible chronology indicates man has been on the earth. All mankind have been dying, and sins and transgressions against God have multiplied. (Ro 5:12, 15, 16) Since the Bible indicates that God gave man a perfect start, the questions have arisen: How did sin, imperfection, and wickedness get their start? And why has the Almighty God allowed these things to remain for centuries? The answers lie in a challenge against God’s sovereignty that brought forth an important issue involving all mankind. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]What was challenged? Who was reproached and defamed by this challenge of the angel who was later called Satan the Devil, which challenge Adam supported by his rebellious act? Was it the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]fact[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of God's [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]supremacy,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] the existence of his [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]sovereignty?[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Was God’s sovereignty in danger? No, for God has supreme authority and power, and no one in heaven or earth can take this away. The challenge therefore must have been of the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]rightfulness,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]deservedness,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]and[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]righteousness[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of God’s sovereignty—whether his sovereignty was exercised righteously, and for the best interests of his subjects or not. An indication of this is the approach to Eve: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” Here the Serpent intimated that such a thing was unbelievable—that God was unduly restrictive, withholding something that was the rightful due of the human pair.(Ge 3:1) The settling of the issue was actually a matter vital to all of us, as respects our relationship to God’s sovereignty. For, once settled, such an issue would never need to be tried again. God has allowed a time for this world and its god, Satan the Devil, to exist and develop in it's wickedness, and He has set a time for it's destruction. Bible prophecy let's us know that the time for the end of man's rule is near and that man definitely does not have the ability to rule himself independent of God. (Jer.10:23) And just think...we, as individuals, can have a share in the vindication of God's sovereignty. (Pr 27:11) [/FONT]


“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But, why has it taken so long” you might ask? From Job’s day to Jesus’ might seem like a long time for suffering to continue—some 1,600 years. For a human, 100 years would appear a long time to wait for suffering to end. But we must recognize that the key issues that Satan raised reflected negatively on the Creator. In God’s view the subsequent allowance of suffering and wickedness has been brief. To our heavenly Father 'a thousand years are but as yesterday when it is past.’ ( Psalm 90:4) [/FONT]​
Click to expand...

Let me practise active lisetening hear by summarizing your thoughts. :)

So, because Adam and Eve rebelled against God, God put humanity into thousands of years of suffering. God is essentially punishing the child who dies of AIDS for the rebellion of Adam and Eve. While this may seem...well.... less than charitable, we must understand that God doesn't see it that way because thousands of years of human suffering and death doesn't seem like long at all to him.

Do I have this right?
 
Luminous

Luminous

non-existential luminary
Beaudreaux said:
Let me practise active lisetening hear by summarizing your thoughts. :)

So, because Adam and Eve rebelled against God, God put humanity into thousands of years of suffering. God is essentially punishing the child who dies of AIDS for the rebellion of Adam and Eve. While this may seem...well.... less than charitable, we must understand that God doesn't see it that way because thousands of years of human suffering and death doesn't seem like long at all to him.

Do I have this right?
Click to expand...
I believe such a believe is why Islam is the world's fastest growing religion(idk) and 87% of christian children are leaving the faith. it just doesn't make sense, though neither does Muhammadism.
 
Beaudreaux

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
Storm said:
"Anyway, if you understand the point, kindly address it and stop failing at strawmen.
Click to expand...
Well, Storm, I do not believe I have set up any strawmen here, but to ensure that you are satisfied I am attacking your position and no other, I shall directly address your Abrahamic Theodicy

Why would a benevolent God Create evil? This question has plagued theologians for centuries. Presumptuous as it may be, I set myself the task of answering this question, and I've struck upon an answer that satisfies me.


If an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent (omnimax) Creator exists, evil must be somehow beneficial to us. So how?


Without evil, “good” has no real meaning. To be truly good, we must be faced with a choice. It is only in the face of suffering that we become compassionate. Evil gives us something to overcome, and in doing so become wiser, stronger, and nobler than we would have been without challenge.
Click to expand...




You are taking the position that evil is actually good for us and so is not something to be angry at God about. ("evil must be somehow beneficial to us") Here is a direct response to that.
  1. Suffering does not always make us stronger. I do not believe that Vietnam Vets with post traumatic stress disorder are living more enriched lives than college educated middle class people with relatively normal lives. I believe the suffering they endured has made their life worse, not better.
  2. The idea that those who suffer become more compassionate is demonstrably wrong. Statistics show that people who were abused as children have a higher than normal chance of going on to abuse children themselves.
  3. Your position goes completely against scriptures which clearly speak of evil as a bad thing. In the Lords Prayer, Christians ask God "deliver us from evil." This is not them asking God to help them not to do evil things ("lead us not into temptation"). It is asking God to keep them from having evil commited upon them. Why would they ask that if the evil actually had a good effect?

    Now, it can be argued that an omnimax God could have simply Created us as wise and noble as He wished. However, in the words of Thomas Paine, “What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly.” If we needn't struggle to be virtuous, we would not understand the value of it.

    What say you?
    Click to expand...
Again, let me attack this argument directly so as to avoid any confusion about straw men. If God is omnipotent, then He could have created a world where Thomas Payne was wrong. He could have created a world where virtue did not need to be struggled for and where we could understand the value of goodness without having to experience evil. Or is God not capable of that?
 
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