Why Don’t You Believe Jesus Rose From The Grave?

[joelr]

It appears to be all made up imo.

Says an amateur who has no qualifications in Greek theology.

All made up by people without faith in the power of God to prophesy and to set up cross references in the scriptures which really happened.

Yes that proves Mormonism, Islam and anyone else that need it to. It's speculation, not demonstrated, magical thinking, a confirmation bias way to ignore obvious syncretism with a magic solution and without evidence.
You do not care about what is actually true.
Yahweh said hundreds of things that did not happen, Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon
some vague things did. Some were written after the fact as Ehrman demonstrates in Forged. You cannot prove God exists. It can be shown the Hebrew God is a typical Near Eastern warrior deity, who during the Persian period changed to be more like the Persian God then changed to be more like Platonic gods.

Syncretic myth.


Doctrines taken from Persia into Judiasm.






fundamental doctrines became disseminated throughout the region, from Egypt to the Black Sea: namely that there is a supreme God who is the Creator; that an evil power exists which is opposed to him, and not under his control; that he has emanated many lesser divinities to help combat this power; that he has created this world for a purpose, and that in its present state it will have an end; that this end will be heralded by the coming of a cosmic Saviour, who will help to bring it about; that meantime heaven and hell exist, with an individual judgment to decide the fate of each soul at death; that at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and a Last Judgment, with annihilation of the wicked; and that thereafter the kingdom of God will come upon earth, and the righteous will enter into it as into a garden (a Persian word for which is 'paradise'), and be happy there in the presence of God for ever, immortal themselves in body as well as soul. These doctrines all came to be adopted by various Jewish schools in the post-Exilic period, for the Jews were one of the peoples, it seems, most open to Zoroastrian influences - a tiny minority, holding staunchly to their own beliefs, but evidently admiring their Persian benefactors, and finding congenial elements in their faith. Worship of the one supreme God, and belief in the coming of a Messiah or Saviour, together with adherence to a way of life which combined moral and spiritual aspirations with a strict code of behaviour (including purity laws) were all matters in which Judaism and Zoroastrianism were in harmony; and it was this harmony, it seems, reinforced by the respect of a subject people for a great protective power, which allowed Zoroastrian doctrines to exert their influence. The extent of this influence is best attested, however, by Jewish writings of the Parthian period, when Christianity and the Gnostic faiths, as well as northern Buddhism, all likewise bore witness to the profound effect: which Zoroaster's teachings had had throughout the lands of the Achaernenian empire.



Mary Boyce



Monotheism



presenting Zoroastrianism to Muslim Iran he was naturally happy to stress the theory of Zoroaster's rigid monotheism, without any taint even of theological dualism. 'The contest is only between the spirits of goodness and evil within us in the world .... Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, stand as the fundamental principles of the religion of Zarathustra. And this is a perennial source of glory and pride to Iran and the Iranians, that once in that land one of its sons gave this grand message to humanity, to keep themselves aloof even from bad thoughts' (pp. 48, 50-1). The Zoroastrians warmly welcomed Pur-Davud's efforts to win recognition for the nobility of their faith among those who had so long despised it as polytheism and fire-worship.\



God


Zoroaster went much further, and in a startling departure from accepted beliefs proclaimed Ahura Mazda to be the one uncreated God, existing eternally, and Creator of all else that is good, including all other beneficent divinities.

Mary Boyce,


Zoroastrians-Their-Religious-Beliefs-and-Practic

These people actually see made up stories where real history exists because their aim is to discredit the gospels and the Hebrew scriptures and so they explain everything to try to make it look as if it had to have been made up stories.

Well that confirms you have no idea what you are talking about. Massive confirmation bias.
If you go to mythvision and listen to the stories of historians like Ehrman, Richard Miller, Kipp Davis , they started out as fundamentalists who wanted to prove the HBible, saw the overwhelming evidence and had to admit it's a myth.

If people have not got faith, and especially if they once were believers, they need to make up stuff for their own selves, to justify rejecting the truth.

So now the entire study of Hellenism, Mesopotamian culture and Persian culture is "made up".

We are right on track, the theist denies all fields of scholarship that don't allow the beliefs in one myth and somehow know more than all of them. So truth is not something you care about.
Making a myth real is the priority. I get it. When you have evidence of your claims please feel free to engage in an actual discussion.

The made up stuff they come out with is a result of twisting the scriptures.
So not believing the story and having to make up something else to explain it.

Please demonstrate where Tabor "twists" the scripture

As if the basic idea of the NT isn't about salvation, meaning getting a soul into the afterlife, from the passion of a savior figure, the eucharist, and all the other things mentioned. That is Hellenism and it's also borrowed in the NT. Sorry you bought into a Greek based myth.


Death & Afterlife: Do Christians Follow Plato rather than Jesus or Paul?


Dr James Tabor

Death & Afterlife: Do Christians Follow Plato rather than Jesus or Paul?


Dr James Tabor

 

[River Sea]

G. The Egyptian princess names the baby she finds "Moses" because she "drew him out" of the water (Heb meshethi). Why would she make a pun in Hebrew (Ex 2:10)?

@Maninthemiddle @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Other similar stories about protecting a baby in a basket floating on water or carrying over water, and what reasons were these stories from where, and how would this lead to other stories and why?

@Maninthemiddle: Why would the Pharaoh's daughter make a pun? @Bharat Jhunjhunwala, What about who took care of Krishna? Who would make a pun when he later carries Krishna over water while crossing which river? Who made a pun on Krishna and stated what? In comparing Moses, explain about her saying, "I drew him out of the water." Is this a pun in Hebrew (Ex 2:10)? When the child grew older, she took him to Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son. She named him Moses, saying, “I drew him out of the water.” Did somebody say that about Krishna? "I drew him out of the water."

If Moses' story led others to believe that Jesus rose or did not rise, how does Krishna's story lead or not lead people to believe in Jesus in rising or not rising?

 

[joelr]

Neither Judaism not Christianity is the Gnosticism you/he is describing.

Dr Tabor starts by teaching the Genesis view of the earth and death. He constantly sources examples in the original Hebrew. He goes over the exact eschatology from the Hebrew Bible.

He goes over Josephus and Philo. Then Jesus and Paul, with examples. Everything is tied to examples in the Bible. He explains Hellenism and exactly how it changed the NT. The chart I gave he calls an "oversimplified" version. He demonstrates Jesus and Paul are not talking about Jewish resurrection but Hellenistic resurrection. Everything includes examples from the original languages version of the Bible.

The idea this is Gnostic teachings is absurd. Elaine Pagels goes over the Gnostic teachings in her book The Gnostic Gospels, it's completely different.
There also is no such thing as Gnosticism, it's a modern word.


Death & Afterlife: Do Christians Follow Plato rather than Jesus or Paul?


Dr James Tabor

5:40 1st Hebrew view of cosmology and afterlife. The dead are sleeping in Sheol, earth is above, the firmament is above that and divides the upper ocean from falling to earth,





7:50 A linear version emerged with time and an end times and final Judgment.


Genesis says you will return to dust.





9:00 Translation of Genesis 2:6 God breathes the breath of life into Adam (giving him a soul). The actual Hebrew translation is “living-breathing”, meaning all life is this.





10:40 Hellenistic period - the Hebrew religion adopts the Greek ideas.


Sources the Britannica article and explains it’s an excellent resource from an excellent scholar.





13:35 In the Hellenistic period the common perception is not the Hebrew view, it’s the idea that the soul belongs in Heaven.





14:15 The basic Hellenistic idea is taken into the Hebrew tradition. Salvation in the Hellenistic world is how do you save your soul and get to Heaven. How to transcend the physical body.





Greek tomb “I am a child of earth and starry heaven but heaven alone is my home”





15:46 Does this sound familiar, Christian hymns - “this world is not my home, I’m a pilgrim passing through, Jesus will come and take you home”.


Common theme that comes from the Hellenistic religions. Immortal souls trapped in a human body etc…





47:15 Hellenistic Greek view of cosmology


Material world/body is a prison of the soul


Humans are immortal souls, fallen into the darkness of the lower world


Death sets the soul free


No human history, just a cycle of birth, death, rebirth


Immortality is inherent for all humans


Salvation is escape to Heaven, the true home of the immortal soul

Humans are fallen and misplaced


Death is a stripping of the body so the soul can be free


Death is a liberating friend to be welcomed


Asceticism is the moral idea for the soul





49:35 Genesis view


Creation/body very good, procreation good


Humans are “living breathers”, akin to animals, mortal, dust of the earth


Death is dark silent “sleeping in the dust”


Human history moves toward a perfected new age/creation


Salvation is eternal life in the perfected world of the new creation


Humans belong on earth


Resurrection brings a new transformed glorious spiritual body


Death is an enemy


Physical life and sensory pleasures are good




As Dr Tabor points out,


The New Testament comes out of a wholly different milieu. First, it is part and parcel of the broad changes in religious thought that we know as "Hellenization."It is characterized by a vast and expanded dualistic cosmos, an emphasis on immortality and personal salvation,i.e.,one escaping this world fo ra better heavenly life. At the same time, and to be more specific,it is absolutely and completely dominated by an apocalyptic world view of things, whereby all will be soon resolved by the decisive intervention of God, the End of the Age, the last great Judgment, and the eternal Kingdom of God. In addition, the Christology that develops, even in the first century, is thoroughly"Hellenistic," with Jesus the human transformed into the pre-existent, divine, Son of God, who sits at the right hand of God and is Lord of the cosmos.The whole complex of ideas about multiple levels of heavens, fate, angels, demons, miracles and magic abound.It is as if all the questions that the HebrewBible only begins to explore - questions about theodicy, justice, human purpose, history, death, sin - are all suddenly answered with a loud and resounding " Yes ! " There is little, if any struggle left . There are few haunting questions, and no genuine tragedy or meaningless suffering. All is guaranteed it will shortly be worked out.


Of course, various attempts are made to reinterpret this early Christianity for our time. usually in terms of ethics or some existential core of truth . But early Christianity rests on two essential points, both of which resist easy demytholozation: it is a religious movement built on apoctalyptic view of history and an evaluation of Jesus as a Hellenistic deity, i.e., a pre-existent divine Savior God in whom all ultimate meaning rests. If these are unacceptable in the modem world, or incompatible with the fundamental Hebrew view of things, then the whole system becomes difficult, if not superfluous. (which is why apologetics tries so hard to deny this)


James Tabor


Reflections on the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament

 

[joelr]

The prophecies about the Messiah and what He would do came hundreds of years before the Greeks.

From Persia, no specific predictions were made. At the time of Jesus there were many messiahs.


Messiahs in the Time of Jesus, Dr Tabor


Josephus mentions a dozen or more “messiah” figures beginning with Hezekiah/Ezekias c. 45 BCE whom the young Herod defeated whom he variously labels as “brigands” (ληστής) or “imposters” (γόης)—though he calls Judas the Galilean a “wise man” (σοφιστής) and credits him with the founding a the “fourth philosophy” (Jewish Antiquities18.23). Several of these figures are said to have worn the “diadem” (διάδημα)—which indicates royal or “messianic” claims and aspirations. Philo defines γόηςas one who cloaks himself as a prophet but is an imposter (Special Laws 1.315), compare 2 Timothy 3:13. The following list could be expanded but it includes those who are most obviously named and identified. This does not include, of course, the Teacher of Righteousness at Qumran, John the Baptizer, Jesus, or James his brother, who represented scions of the tribes of Levi and Judah or both. And then we could add Barabbas, mentioned in Mark 15:7, and the two crucified “brigands,” (ληστής), one on the right and the other on the left of Jesus (Mark 15:27).


• Hezekiah/Ezekias, defeated by Herod in 47 BCE (Jewish War 1.204-205)


• Judas (aka Theudas) son of Ezekias, 4 BCE/death of Herod (Jewish War 2.56; Acts 5:36)


• Simon of Perea, 4 BCE/death of Herod (Jewish War 2.57-59)


• Athronges the Shepherd, 4 BCE/death of Herod (Jewish War 2:60-65)


• Judas the Galilean, 6 CE/Archaelaus removed (Jewish War 2.118)


• Theudas, c. 44 CE (Jewish Antiquities 20.97; Acts 5:36?)


• James and Simon, c. 46 CE, sons of Judas the Galilean, crucified by Tiberius Alexander, nephew of Philo, who was Procurator 46-48 CE (Jewish Antiquities 20.102)


• “The Egyptian” c. 50s CE (Jewish Antiquities 20.169-171; Jewish War 2.261-263; Acts 21:38)


• Eleazar son of Dineus/Deinaeus, c. 52 CE under Felix (Jewish War 2.253; Jewish Antiquities 20:161)


• Menachem, son of Judas the Galilean, 66 CE (Jewish War 2:433-448)


• Eleazar son of Jairus (ben Yair), commander of Masada, was of the family (γένος) of Menachem (Jewish War 2.447)


Messianic expectation taken from Persia hugely influenced the Jewish and surrounding religions. In it first form in Zoroastrianism it looked like this:


Belief in a world Saviour



Virgin born





An important theological development during the dark ages of 'the faith concerned the growth of beliefs about the Saoshyant or coming Saviour. Passages in the Gathas suggest that Zoroaster was filled with a sense that the end of the world was imminent, and that Ahura Mazda had entrusted him with revealed truth in order to rouse mankind for their vital part in the final struggle. Yet he must have realized that he would not himself live to see Frasho-kereti; and he seems to have taught that after him there would come 'the man who is better than a good man' (Y 43.3), the Saoshyant. The literal meaning of Saoshyant is 'one who will bring benefit' ; and it is he who will lead humanity in the last battle against evil. Zoroaster's followers, holding ardently to this expectation, came to believe that the Saoshyant will be born of the prophet's own seed, miraculously preserved in the depths of a lake (identified as Lake K;tsaoya). When the end of time approaches, it is said, a virgin will bathe in this lake and become with child by the prophet; and she will in due course bear a son, named Astvat-ereta, 'He who embodies righteousness' (after Zoroaster's own words: 'May righteousness be embodied' Y 43. r6). Despite his miraculous conception, the coming World Saviour will thus be a man, born of human parents, and so there is no betrayal, in this development of belief in the Saoshyant, of Zoroaster's own teachings about the part which mankind has to play in the great cosmic struggle. The Saoshyant is thought of as being accompanied, like kings and heroes, by Khvarenah, and it is in Yasht r 9 that the extant Avesta has most to tell of him. Khvarenah, it is said there (vv. 89, 92, 93), 'will accompany the victorious Saoshyant ... so that he may restore 9 existence .... When Astvat-ereta comes out from the Lake K;tsaoya, messenger of Mazda Ahura ... then he will drive the Drug out from the world of Asha.' This glorious moment was longed for by the faithful, and the hope of it was to be their strength and comfort in times of adversity.


Just as belief in the coming Saviour developed its element of the miraculous, so, naturally, the person of the prophet himself came to be magnified as the centuries passed. Thus in the Younger Avesta, although never divinized, Zoroaster is exalted as 'the first priest, the first warrior, the first herdsman ... master and judge of the world' (Yt 13. 89, 9 1), one at whose birth 'the waters and plants ... and all the creatures of the Good Creation rejoiced' (Y t 13.99). Angra Mainyu, it is said, fled at that moment from the earth (Yt 17. 19); but he returned to tempt the prophet in vain, with a promise of earthly power, to abjure the faith of Ahura Mazda (Vd 19 .6)

Mary Boyce


I don't know for sure on this but this may have been an influence on Hellenism and personal salvation but I'm not sure because I haven't seen that addressed by experts who know the material. Hellenism started around 300 BCE where Persian myths date to 1700 BCE.

When the Persians invaded Israel, Heaven was still just the home of Yahweh, the dead rested in Sheol. The Persians has the idea of Heaven as an afterlife reward. Or Hell as a punishment.



Salvation or hell

Zoroaster's teachings contained much to anger and trouble his people. In offering the hope of heaven to everyone who would follow him and seek righteousness, he was breaking, it seems, with an aristocratic and priestly tradition which consigned all lesser mortals .. to a subterranean life after death. Moreover, he not only extended the hope of salvation on high to the humble, but threatened the mighty with hell and ultimate extinction if they acted unjustly. His doctrines concerning the hereafter were thus doubly calculated to outrage the privileged; and to rich and poor alike his rejection of the Daevas must have seemed rash and dangerous, being calculated to draw down the wrath of those divine beings on the whole community. Further, the grand concepts of the one Creator, dualism and the great cosmic struggle, with the demand for continual moral endeavours, may well have been difficult to grasp, and, once grasped, too challenging for the ordinary easy-going polytheist. (also the first monotheistic doctrine)

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@Maninthemiddle @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Other similar stories about protecting a baby in a basket floating on water or carrying over water, and what reasons were these stories from where, and how would this lead to other stories and why?

@Maninthemiddle: Why would the Pharaoh's daughter make a pun? @Bharat Jhunjhunwala, What about who took care of Krishna? Who would make a pun when he later carries Krishna over water while crossing which river? Who made a pun on Krishna and stated what? In comparing Moses, explain about her saying, "I drew him out of the water." Is this a pun in Hebrew (Ex 2:10)? When the child grew older, she took him to Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son. She named him Moses, saying, “I drew him out of the water.” Did somebody say that about Krishna? "I drew him out of the water."

If Moses' story led others to believe that Jesus rose or did not rise, how does Krishna's story lead or not lead people to believe in Jesus in rising or not rising?

The way to find which was the original story of the basket would be to look at the timing of the story. As per my assessment, the archaeological evidence from Chanu-Daro for being Mathura is earliest. Among the others. Sargon, for example, was much later and Moses was same.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Dr Tabor starts by teaching the Genesis view of the earth and death. He constantly sources examples in the original Hebrew. He goes over the exact eschatology from the Hebrew Bible.

He goes over Josephus and Philo. Then Jesus and Paul, with examples. Everything is tied to examples in the Bible. He explains Hellenism and exactly how it changed the NT. The chart I gave he calls an "oversimplified" version. He demonstrates Jesus and Paul are not talking about Jewish resurrection but Hellenistic resurrection. Everything includes examples from the original languages version of the Bible.

The idea this is Gnostic teachings is absurd. Elaine Pagels goes over the Gnostic teachings in her book The Gnostic Gospels, it's completely different.
There also is no such thing as Gnosticism, it's a modern word.


Death & Afterlife: Do Christians Follow Plato rather than Jesus or Paul?


Dr James Tabor

5:40 1st Hebrew view of cosmology and afterlife. The dead are sleeping in Sheol, earth is above, the firmament is above that and divides the upper ocean from falling to earth,





7:50 A linear version emerged with time and an end times and final Judgment.


Genesis says you will return to dust.





9:00 Translation of Genesis 2:6 God breathes the breath of life into Adam (giving him a soul). The actual Hebrew translation is “living-breathing”, meaning all life is this.





10:40 Hellenistic period - the Hebrew religion adopts the Greek ideas.


Sources the Britannica article and explains it’s an excellent resource from an excellent scholar.





13:35 In the Hellenistic period the common perception is not the Hebrew view, it’s the idea that the soul belongs in Heaven.





14:15 The basic Hellenistic idea is taken into the Hebrew tradition. Salvation in the Hellenistic world is how do you save your soul and get to Heaven. How to transcend the physical body.





Greek tomb “I am a child of earth and starry heaven but heaven alone is my home”





15:46 Does this sound familiar, Christian hymns - “this world is not my home, I’m a pilgrim passing through, Jesus will come and take you home”.


Common theme that comes from the Hellenistic religions. Immortal souls trapped in a human body etc…





47:15 Hellenistic Greek view of cosmology


Material world/body is a prison of the soul


Humans are immortal souls, fallen into the darkness of the lower world


Death sets the soul free


No human history, just a cycle of birth, death, rebirth


Immortality is inherent for all humans


Salvation is escape to Heaven, the true home of the immortal soul

Humans are fallen and misplaced


Death is a stripping of the body so the soul can be free


Death is a liberating friend to be welcomed


Asceticism is the moral idea for the soul





49:35 Genesis view


Creation/body very good, procreation good


Humans are “living breathers”, akin to animals, mortal, dust of the earth


Death is dark silent “sleeping in the dust”


Human history moves toward a perfected new age/creation


Salvation is eternal life in the perfected world of the new creation


Humans belong on earth


Resurrection brings a new transformed glorious spiritual body


Death is an enemy


Physical life and sensory pleasures are good




As Dr Tabor points out,


The New Testament comes out of a wholly different milieu. First, it is part and parcel of the broad changes in religious thought that we know as "Hellenization."It is characterized by a vast and expanded dualistic cosmos, an emphasis on immortality and personal salvation,i.e.,one escaping this world fo ra better heavenly life. At the same time, and to be more specific,it is absolutely and completely dominated by an apocalyptic world view of things, whereby all will be soon resolved by the decisive intervention of God, the End of the Age, the last great Judgment, and the eternal Kingdom of God. In addition, the Christology that develops, even in the first century, is thoroughly"Hellenistic," with Jesus the human transformed into the pre-existent, divine, Son of God, who sits at the right hand of God and is Lord of the cosmos.The whole complex of ideas about multiple levels of heavens, fate, angels, demons, miracles and magic abound.It is as if all the questions that the HebrewBible only begins to explore - questions about theodicy, justice, human purpose, history, death, sin - are all suddenly answered with a loud and resounding " Yes ! " There is little, if any struggle left . There are few haunting questions, and no genuine tragedy or meaningless suffering. All is guaranteed it will shortly be worked out.


Of course, various attempts are made to reinterpret this early Christianity for our time. usually in terms of ethics or some existential core of truth . But early Christianity rests on two essential points, both of which resist easy demytholozation: it is a religious movement built on apoctalyptic view of history and an evaluation of Jesus as a Hellenistic deity, i.e., a pre-existent divine Savior God in whom all ultimate meaning rests. If these are unacceptable in the modem world, or incompatible with the fundamental Hebrew view of things, then the whole system becomes difficult, if not superfluous. (which is why apologetics tries so hard to deny this)


James Tabor


Reflections on the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament

The fact that Gnosticism is a modern world does not change the ground reality. The fact is that there is a spiritual version of the Hebrew, Christian and Islamic scriptures. In Hebrew the Gnosticism follows from the ten sefirot. In Christianity, Gnosticism is in Pistis Sophia. And in Islam it is in the Sufi traditions.

 

[paarsurrey]

Why Don’t You Believe Jesus Rose From The Grave?

Because it never happened, right, please?

Regards

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why Don’t You Believe Jesus Rose From The Grave?

Because it never happened, right, please?

Regards

Your reply begs the question. If someone asks "Why X?" saying" Because X" doesn't answer the question. I also don't believe it happened, but saying that doesn't answer the question.

If you want to address the question, please give the reasons (such as logical arguments or scientific studies) that you think it never happened.

 

[Maninthemiddle]

@Maninthemiddle @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Other similar stories about protecting a baby in a basket floating on water or carrying over water, and what reasons were these stories from where, and how would this lead to other stories and why?

@Maninthemiddle: Why would the Pharaoh's daughter make a pun? @Bharat Jhunjhunwala, What about who took care of Krishna? Who would make a pun when he later carries Krishna over water while crossing which river? Who made a pun on Krishna and stated what? In comparing Moses, explain about her saying, "I drew him out of the water." Is this a pun in Hebrew (Ex 2:10)? When the child grew older, she took him to Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son. She named him Moses, saying, “I drew him out of the water.” Did somebody say that about Krishna? "I drew him out of the water."

If Moses' story led others to believe that Jesus rose or did not rise, how does Krishna's story lead or not lead people to believe in Jesus in rising or not rising?

Did I mention Krishna

 

[joelr]

The fact that Gnosticism is a modern world does not change the ground reality. The fact is that there is a spiritual version of the Hebrew, Christian and Islamic scriptures. In Hebrew the Gnosticism follows from the ten sefirot. In Christianity, Gnosticism is in Pistis Sophia. And in Islam it is in the Sufi traditions.

Gnostic scriptures have a lot of influences, how did you study them?

 

[paarsurrey]

Why Don’t You Believe Jesus Rose From The Grave?

Because it never happened, right, please?
Empty tomb is a lame excuse for making (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite "god, son of god, god in flesh":

5:76-78
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.
Say, ‘Will you worship beside Allah that which has no power to do you harm or good?’ And it is Allah Who is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
"Say, ‘O People of the Book! exceed not the limits in the matter of your religion unjustly, nor follow the evil inclinations of a people who went astray before and caused many to go astray, and who have strayed away from the right path.’ Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
Right?

Regards
________________
Original Arabic narration/text since Muhammad's time is below:-
5:76-78
مَا الۡمَسِیۡحُ ابۡنُ مَرۡیَمَ اِلَّا رَسُوۡلٌ ۚ قَدۡ خَلَتۡ مِنۡ قَبۡلِہِ الرُّسُلُ ؕ وَاُمُّہٗ صِدِّیۡقَۃٌ ؕ کَانَا یَاۡکُلٰنِ الطَّعَامَ ؕ اُنۡظُرۡ کَیۡفَ نُبَیِّنُ لَہُمُ الۡاٰیٰتِ ثُمَّ انۡظُرۡ اَنّٰی یُؤۡفَکُوۡنَ ﴿۷۶
قُلۡ اَتَعۡبُدُوۡنَ مِنۡ دُوۡنِ اللّٰہِ مَا لَا یَمۡلِکُ لَکُمۡ ضَرًّا وَّلَا نَفۡعًا ؕ وَاللّٰہُ ہُوَ السَّمِیۡعُ الۡعَلِیۡمُ ﴿۷۷
قُلۡ یٰۤاَہۡلَ الۡکِتٰبِ لَا تَغۡلُوۡا فِیۡ دِیۡنِکُمۡ غَیۡرَ الۡحَقِّ وَلَا تَتَّبِعُوۡۤا اَہۡوَآءَ قَوۡمٍ قَدۡ ضَلُّوۡا مِنۡ قَبۡلُ وَاَضَلُّوۡا کَثِیۡرًا وَّضَلُّوۡا عَنۡ سَوَآءِ السَّبِیۡلِ ﴿٪۷۸

 

[Kenny]

Because it never happened, right, please?

Wrong.

Sura 5:47, “Let the people of the gospel judge by what God has sent down therein. Whosoever judges not by that which God has sent down—it is they who are iniquitous.”

Sura 3:55 God speaks to Jesus, saying, “[W]hen he said, “O Jesus, I shall take thee and raise thee unto me, and purify thee of those who disbelieved, and place those who followed thee above those who disbelieved, until the day of resurrection. Then unto me is your return, and I shall judge between you concerning that wherein you used to differ.”

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Gnostic scriptures have a lot of influences, how did you study them?

I studied Gnostic scriptures based upon my experience. I am not interested in the academic pursuit of deciding what influences led to their development? I'm more interested in finding out what they mean for me.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Wrong.

Sura 5:47, “Let the people of the gospel judge by what God has sent down therein. Whosoever judges not by that which God has sent down—it is they who are iniquitous.”

Sura 3:55 God speaks to Jesus, saying, “[W]hen he said, “O Jesus, I shall take thee and raise thee unto me, and purify thee of those who disbelieved, and place those who followed thee above those who disbelieved, until the day of resurrection. Then unto me is your return, and I shall judge between you concerning that wherein you used to differ.”

I recently met a taxi driver who had a motorcycle placed on his dashboard. He said there was a particular saint who was riding on a motorbike and he met with his death but then the bike drove itself and came back to the owner's home without the rider. This is widely believed in the state of Rajasthan. I do believe it. I think that when one dies, the soul has the capacity to influence matter and let us consider a situation where the soul was influencing the pedals and the handle of the motorbike to go in a particular direction. My own sense that Jesus did actually come back to earth. I have read Pistis Sophia in full detail and I think it is perfectly possible that Jesus in his spiritual being may have appeared before his faithful and giving them sermons. We know so little about the afterlife that it would be unwise to take a position either way.

 

[Maninthemiddle]

Did I mention Krishna

Several times in the post you just put up above asking did you mention Krishna.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

A. River Gihon could not possibly flow from Mesopotamia and encompass Ethiopia (Gen 2:13)

I really appreciate the problems that you have mentioned with the book but there are two ways moving forward. One way is to say that the book is itself false another way is that the book is correct and the geography where we are looking for is false. Let me briefly address these few points that you have raised -

A. River Gihon was the Luni River that flows in India and it flew from Pushkar to the Runn of Kutch, which may be the area called Ethiopia at that time.

C. Ur was not a Chaldean city until 1000 years after Abraham (Gen 11:28, 15:7)

C. Ur was probably located in the Cholistan desert of Indus Valley and Indians are known to be great followers of astrology since time immemorial. Hence, that is not a contradiction.

F. Joseph tells Pharaoh he comes from the "land of the Hebrews" (Gen 40:15). There was no such land until after the conquest under Joshua.


H. No Egyptian record exists mentioning Moses or his devastation of Egypt.

I. Moses refers to "Palestine" (Ex 15:14). No such name was in use then.

F. When Joseph tells Pharaoh that he comes from the land of Hebrews. He may refer to another area within the Indus Valley. I personally think it was the northern part of the Indus Valley in Punjab and Haryana and was known as Kosala rather than Canaan in the Indus Valley.

H. No Egyptian records exist regarding the devastation of Egypt because there was no devastation of Egypt. As we understand modern Egypt, the devastation, if at all, was in Indus Valley. Hence, this is okay.

I. Moses's reference to Palestine , maybe to an area within the Indus Valley. We do not know what this was called at that time.

I think this is good for a starter. I really appreciate your list and I am copying and keeping it for later reference but if you find it plausible to consider the exodus from Indus Valley, then we can take specific points forward. Thank you.