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People are creative enough to do that with Harry Potter books as well.
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Why Don't Christians Follow the Bible?
- Thread starter LongGe123
- Start date
And what would these assumptions be? I assure you that Simon's work contains no mindless assumptions - all his posts (which he made under my name), were based on really thorough research of materials written by those who had also thoroughly researched this. It is YOU who are merely assuming that all our assertions are false because of your blind faith.
You know something funny? We tell children fun make-believe stories about things like the Easter Bunny, Father Christmas etc. But when they grow up they find out its all make believe...But why on earth is it that people are allowed to continue to think that God and religion is anything but make believe...I mean...really? Just because the story is older doesn't make it any less false.
I think the government lets them keep believing in it at an attempt to control the crime rate.
The Easter Bunny isn't real?
spiritually inclined
Active Member
The Bible is a book. It is not the word of God in any literal sense of the word. It is a very human book. The Bible contains both profound and horrible passages. It's wasn't all written as history.
The original post of this thread debunks not all of Christianity, but a very narrow, literal, fundamentalist sense of Christianity. Such narrow views do not hold up under mainstream theological scholarship today.
As a Christian, I don't follow every bit of the Bible because I'm not a brainwashed sheep. The Bible means nothing without my brain, my experiences, the experiences of people in general. It is a source of reflection and therefore insight to which some people dedicate their entire lives to studying.
Part of the problem both critics of Christianity and fundamentalists have is their insistence on biblical literalism.
This is a very simplistic reading of these texts. You have to remember that at the time these letters were written, there was no canon, there was no Christian Bible. There were only the Hebrew scriptures; the canon of the Bible was to come later. Certainly some of these letters were circulated among early Christians, but much of what was taught to early communities came directly from the teachers, as some letters in the New Testament indicate.
What I don't understand is why some non-religious people reject even those religions and religious people who are open-minded, intelligent, good-willed, and peaceful. For instance, the Amazing Atheist from youtube applauds the evil people of Westboro Baptist Church, specifically Shirley Phelps, for their assumed consistence in their theology. This means that they accept all of the words of the Bible as literal fact. They believe that god hates all homosexuals and say things like "Thank God for 9/11, thank God for dead soldiers...." (A closer look at the Bible reveals that literalism and fundamentalism are not entirely consistent with the Bible, either.)
Yet Christians who aren't so rigid with the scriptures are condemned as hypocrites. Only people like Shirley Phelps are the *true* Christians.
Sorry, but that doesn't work for me. I don't care for extremists on either side -- religious or secular.
James
The original post of this thread debunks not all of Christianity, but a very narrow, literal, fundamentalist sense of Christianity. Such narrow views do not hold up under mainstream theological scholarship today.
As a Christian, I don't follow every bit of the Bible because I'm not a brainwashed sheep. The Bible means nothing without my brain, my experiences, the experiences of people in general. It is a source of reflection and therefore insight to which some people dedicate their entire lives to studying.
Part of the problem both critics of Christianity and fundamentalists have is their insistence on biblical literalism.
This is a very simplistic reading of these texts. You have to remember that at the time these letters were written, there was no canon, there was no Christian Bible. There were only the Hebrew scriptures; the canon of the Bible was to come later. Certainly some of these letters were circulated among early Christians, but much of what was taught to early communities came directly from the teachers, as some letters in the New Testament indicate.
What I don't understand is why some non-religious people reject even those religions and religious people who are open-minded, intelligent, good-willed, and peaceful. For instance, the Amazing Atheist from youtube applauds the evil people of Westboro Baptist Church, specifically Shirley Phelps, for their assumed consistence in their theology. This means that they accept all of the words of the Bible as literal fact. They believe that god hates all homosexuals and say things like "Thank God for 9/11, thank God for dead soldiers...." (A closer look at the Bible reveals that literalism and fundamentalism are not entirely consistent with the Bible, either.)
Yet Christians who aren't so rigid with the scriptures are condemned as hypocrites. Only people like Shirley Phelps are the *true* Christians.
Sorry, but that doesn't work for me. I don't care for extremists on either side -- religious or secular.
James
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
1) The assumption that the Bible being "the word of God" renders it infallible.
2) The assumption that, since we weigh the value and veracity of scripture, we're "not following God's word.
3) The assumption that the Bible must "mean what we read it to mean."
Shall I continue?
Religion is "make-believe?" I go into a church on Sunday morning that seems very real to the touch. I deal with people that seem to be very real human beings, all of whom have come together as a community. I deal with polity that imposes very real responsibilities, restrictions, privileges and identity upon the community. I deal with theology that seems to work out in my real life. Hmmm. Doesn't look like any of that's fake.
God is "make-believe?" Prove it!
spiritually inclined
Active Member
Though the reality of an objective god can not be proven or disproven, your words regarding religion and what *can* be the positive aspects of it ring true for me.
James
Can you prove that religion is any less make believe than father christmas or the easter bunny - both are based on man-made stories, so why not? I don't get any of those feelings you mentioned from religion, but if I and a bunch of others think one day that we feel the real effects of the spaghetti monster in space, does that make the spaghetti monster more real.
You know though, I think we're all drifting off the point of Simon's OP, which is that the Bible is an extremely problematic source on which to base an entire faith. What Simon and I feel is strangest is the way religions, particulary Christianity, seems to...how would Lord Melchett have put it? "Twist and turn, like a...twisty turning thing". No matter what evidence is brought up against it, it gets magicked away with the good old faith argument. spiritually inclined said something about why we non-religious people don't accept those good religious people - oh how wrong you are - as I already said, the message behind all the mysticism is OK really. I ask again, what's the deal with all the gods, saviours, death, blood and ritual though? Those things are the only things that are unique to the religion, the things about being good are merely tied in, since after all it wasn't christian people who invented the idea of being good people. There were good people before christianity, there are still good people now and there will continue to be good people long after christianity eventually dies out altogether...which we believe it will.
Let me just up our position on it. We're both atheists, and we really will never believe in any kind of Judaeo Christian idea of God, heaven, hell and all that - we just think it's absolutely impossible, just as likely as a morbidly obese pensioner delivering countless millions of toys around the world in one night. If we say that things like Father Christmas, the Easter bunny, dragons, magicians, sorcery etc is all nonsense and poppycock, frankly we chuck religion into the same barrel.
We think about it this way...through history we have come to see that man is a creature that
needs to understand as much as possible about its surroundings, otherwise it gets afraid. As we learn more, we start to ask deeper and further reaching questions, but the deeper we go and the faster we ask, the further behind we fall on the explanations for things. What is the sun? Why does it appear to move through the sky? What are the stars? Where did all this life come from? ...the list goes on...and on. There were times in history before science could explain things when people said that certain things couldn't possibly be true, like it wasn't possible that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe, and it wasn't possible that the Earth was round and so on. There were other things too, like that the black plague was a punishment from God, that moles were a sign of affinity with satan, all these now crackpot explanations were explained away by science.
No matter what you say now, we believe that in the end, EVERYTHING is explainable by science, and a lot of these questions will be answered one day. When they are answered there won't be the need for this kind of religious belief any more. Yes, you do need faith - you need faith that we can find the answers ourselves before our insignificant pathetic watery rock gets snuffed out of existence.
What of these "paranormal" and "spiritual" things - in the past, certain diseases were viewed as paranormal, but now we know exactly what they are. So what about more abstract and more complex things - well...no matter what you say about science never being able to find the answer to these things, we think you're wrong. Everything in the universe (apart from Chris Crocker) has a function, a purpose and a way of working - everything from the simplest cellular structures to the most complex abstract concepts of the universe. Complexity doesn't make it inexplicable.
You know though, I think we're all drifting off the point of Simon's OP, which is that the Bible is an extremely problematic source on which to base an entire faith. What Simon and I feel is strangest is the way religions, particulary Christianity, seems to...how would Lord Melchett have put it? "Twist and turn, like a...twisty turning thing". No matter what evidence is brought up against it, it gets magicked away with the good old faith argument. spiritually inclined said something about why we non-religious people don't accept those good religious people - oh how wrong you are - as I already said, the message behind all the mysticism is OK really. I ask again, what's the deal with all the gods, saviours, death, blood and ritual though? Those things are the only things that are unique to the religion, the things about being good are merely tied in, since after all it wasn't christian people who invented the idea of being good people. There were good people before christianity, there are still good people now and there will continue to be good people long after christianity eventually dies out altogether...which we believe it will.
Let me just up our position on it. We're both atheists, and we really will never believe in any kind of Judaeo Christian idea of God, heaven, hell and all that - we just think it's absolutely impossible, just as likely as a morbidly obese pensioner delivering countless millions of toys around the world in one night. If we say that things like Father Christmas, the Easter bunny, dragons, magicians, sorcery etc is all nonsense and poppycock, frankly we chuck religion into the same barrel.
We think about it this way...through history we have come to see that man is a creature that
needs to understand as much as possible about its surroundings, otherwise it gets afraid. As we learn more, we start to ask deeper and further reaching questions, but the deeper we go and the faster we ask, the further behind we fall on the explanations for things. What is the sun? Why does it appear to move through the sky? What are the stars? Where did all this life come from? ...the list goes on...and on. There were times in history before science could explain things when people said that certain things couldn't possibly be true, like it wasn't possible that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe, and it wasn't possible that the Earth was round and so on. There were other things too, like that the black plague was a punishment from God, that moles were a sign of affinity with satan, all these now crackpot explanations were explained away by science.
No matter what you say now, we believe that in the end, EVERYTHING is explainable by science, and a lot of these questions will be answered one day. When they are answered there won't be the need for this kind of religious belief any more. Yes, you do need faith - you need faith that we can find the answers ourselves before our insignificant pathetic watery rock gets snuffed out of existence.
What of these "paranormal" and "spiritual" things - in the past, certain diseases were viewed as paranormal, but now we know exactly what they are. So what about more abstract and more complex things - well...no matter what you say about science never being able to find the answer to these things, we think you're wrong. Everything in the universe (apart from Chris Crocker) has a function, a purpose and a way of working - everything from the simplest cellular structures to the most complex abstract concepts of the universe. Complexity doesn't make it inexplicable.
Scott C.
Just one guy
The death penalty for certain sins was part of the Law of Moses. Christ fulfilled this law and taught us to no longer follow it. Both the Law of Moses and its fulfillment are described in the Bible.
However, not everything in the Old Testament is specific to the Law of Moses. It also contains instructions that are still valid today. For example, the Sabbath, is still valid today, but specific Mosaic restrictions and penalties for its violation are no longer in force.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Simon's point is moot. We don't base our faith on the Bible. Our faith is based and rooted in the community that is the Body of Christ. the Bible is problematic in several ways -- no getting around that. but the Bible is a tool for the community -- not the faith of the community.
Yes. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. But the thrust of religion is not to explain the unexplainable, but to help us understand who we are, as we stand in relationship to God.
In what way are Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny "make believe?" They may be metaphorical, but they're not "make believe," because they foster very real results. Santa Claus (unless unduly exploited) fosters the spirit of giving, love and acceptance. (BTW -- St. Nicolaus was very, very real).
deary me we seemed to have missed some big points there...
first of all - you just by saying religion helps us to understand who we are, you are merely proving MY point, that because we can't understand where we come from as of yet, we have come up with this answer AKA various faiths, religions, deities etc. God is simply the explanation for all those things we can't explain...my point is that one day these things will be explained, and the Judaeo-Christian idea of God WILL become obsolete.
Of course by "make-believe" I mean they are not actually real, they are merely characters of stories - if you say that their effect makes them real, then surely the same can be said of any effective character in any famous story. I think you're merely clutching at straws here. I'm afraid they are very, very make believe. Much like God. Why is it then we attach so much more significance to this character "God" - why is it worth worshipping?
first of all - you just by saying religion helps us to understand who we are, you are merely proving MY point, that because we can't understand where we come from as of yet, we have come up with this answer AKA various faiths, religions, deities etc. God is simply the explanation for all those things we can't explain...my point is that one day these things will be explained, and the Judaeo-Christian idea of God WILL become obsolete.
Of course by "make-believe" I mean they are not actually real, they are merely characters of stories - if you say that their effect makes them real, then surely the same can be said of any effective character in any famous story. I think you're merely clutching at straws here. I'm afraid they are very, very make believe. Much like God. Why is it then we attach so much more significance to this character "God" - why is it worth worshipping?
Or they already are, and you just don't accept the answer