Why dont Christians kill their childrens immediately after they baptize them?

[4consideration]

i'm new heres so i hadn't the chance to know you, can i ask you what is your denomination and if this is your personal belief or the belief of the denomination you're in?

I don't use a label. I am speaking of my personal belief.

I have a particular dislike for the so-and-so is "not a true Christian" conversation. IMO, it is a cop-out people use when they want to invalidate someone else's opinion, or when they want to pigeon-hole a person, and instead of being wrong about what someone else believes, just assert the person is not one, or is not a very good one. (edit: I prefer to discuss what I actually believe, rather than wade through tons of misconceptions and assumptions another person brings to the label of Christianity, based upon their own history, or the beliefs of people they know.)

You asked why Christians don't kill their children after baptism, and I am answering for myself. Although, even though I am speaking for myself alone -- I can't think of a denomination that would consider killing one's child immediately after baptism to be anything other than murder. Can you?

 

[cambridge79]

I don't use a label. I am speaking of my personal belief.

I have a particular dislike for the so-and-so is "not a true Christian" conversation. IMO, it is a cop-out people use when they want to invalidate someone else's opinion, or when they want to pigeon-hole a person, and instead of being wrong about what someone else believes, just assert the person is not one, or is not a very good one.

well but at least you've got to give me that when i refer in general to christians i have to make reference to major denominations, i can't go pick them one by one, not because i'm lazy but because they're almost 2 billions. if you don't fit in any of those denominations good for you but you can't be mad at me because i haven't been able to read your mind from the beginning.

You asked why Christians don't kill their children after baptism, and I am answering for myself. Although, even though I am speaking for myself alone -- I can't think of a denomination that would consider killing one's child immediately after baptism to be anything other than murder. Can you?

have i ever said is not murder? i don't think so. In fact i said the father would go to hell doing so ( even if he actually have the chance to truly repent during the rest of his life and still go to heaven ).

What i said is that if you have 30 childrens and you kill them all when they are babyborn and baptized ( assuming no one arrest you ) they all go to heaven ( according to dogma of the major denominations ). Can we deny this simple observation? ( always keeping the major denominations dogma in mind ) i don't think so.

 

[4consideration]

well but at least you've got to give me that when i refer in general to christians i have to make reference to major denominations, i can't go pick them one by one, not because i'm lazy but because they're almost 2 billions. if you don't fit in any of those denominations good for you but you can't be mad at me because i haven't been able to read your mind.

I'm not mad at you.

You made a lot of assertions in the OP I don't agree with as accurate. I don't have to defend against something I don't actually believe.

In my very first post I answered the question of the title. It's murder. That's why, (I was answering for myself, but I'd bet a lot of people would agree with me there.)

You countered with an argument for using a religious belief in support of committing murder. I think you are the one that needs to defend it, and you've yet to convince me.

have i ever said is not murder? i don't think so.

i said that if you have 30 childrens and you kill them al when they are babyborn ( assuming no one arrest you ) they all go to heaven ( according to dogma of the major denominations ) they all go to heaven. Can we deny this simple observation? ( always keeping the major denominations dogma in mind ) i don't think so.

You asked "Why don't Christians..."

Now...unless you just wanted it to just be a gossip session about Christians -- with only non-Christian saying what they think other people think -- or you were asking for a theological debate centering on specific denominations, I think you have to expect that anyone that thinks the question applies to them would answer.

No you didn't say it wasn't murder. I told you it was murder, and you are the one that responded with a JUSTIFICATION for doing it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

This life is transitory, true life starts after you die, and if you've been good enough you go to heaven.
Now if you baptize your children in that moment he is sin free, why not kill him right than? That would prevent him to be exposed to all the moral corruption of this world, basically you would deny him the chance to sin and go to hell. You re giving him a first class ticket to heaven. Why not?

Because such an interpretation of the Bible would be extremely literal, and would be entirely missing the point of the book. I, for one, am happy when Christians use their own brains, interpret the Bible, and apply it to this life we all trundle through. I'm not sure why I'd think of trying to present logical fallacies to them as a means of either convincing them to act in a severely extreme manner, or toss aside their religion altogether. But that's just me.

What's next, daring Muslims to kill unbelievers to prove their faith?

Meh, I don't get it.

 

[cambridge79]

I'm not mad at you.
No you didn't say it wasn't murder. I told you it was murder, and you are the one that responded with a JUSTIFICATION for doing it.

you don't get the difference here, don't you? I'm not justifying it at all.
I'm simply pointing to the fact that the very rules adopted by major denominations lead to this absurd outcome: in the optic of the objective of getting to heaven, killing a baptized babyborn would be, for him ( the babyborn ), a desirable outcome.

is this too hardcore for you? take the following variation: being involved in a car incident where your baptized babyborn dies is a very desirable thing to happen. No bad murder involved, only the good outcome that he will go to heaven. Does it sound even less absurd?

 

[4consideration]

you don't get the difference here, don't you? I'm not justifying it at all.
I'm simply pointing to the fact that the very rules adopted by major denominations lead to this absurd outcome: in the optic of the objective of getting to heaven, killing a baptized babyborn would be, for him ( the babyborn ), a desirable outcome.

is this too hardcore for you? take the following variation: being involved in a car incident where your baptized babyborn dies is a very desirable thing to happen. No bad murder involved, only the good outcome that he will go to heaven. Does it sound even less absurd?

What I get is you don't really seem to want people to discuss what they actually believe with you. You seem to want to only discuss what you have decided they probably think, or should think according to some label.

I sure hope you are (edit: not) going to tell me you only believe in stuff you have evidence of, because I'm just not seeing it in this conversation.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I could turn it around on everyone and ask why don't we all just kill ourselves. Better yet, end all existence. Even if Christianity is a delusion, it's a comforting one (to me, anyway). Think about it. Maybe you'll understand what I mean. (I doubt it.)

 

[McBell]

I m pretty sure god won't deny heaven to the baby cause daddy was a sociopath

Deuteronomy 23:2

 

[Oldsoul]

That's exactly the point. What's more lovely than sacrificing your very own chance to go to heaven in order to make 100% sure that your children goes to heaven avoiding him all the suffering and the risks along the way?

It is an individuals responsibility to ensure or guarantee his entrance into heaven.. you can guide and encourage.. that is all you / we should do.

He wouldn't even suffer, he wouldnt Even realise what happened. You would survive, mourn him, miss him, basically you would bring his cross for him, he will be ok. You now may say "but You re denying him all the good things too" but who really cares, what are those compared to eternity in heaven beside god?

That's really a glorified version of the aftermath. .

You forgot.
~>The media..
~>Justice
~>Prison..?

I can't imagine being some 8 foot tall serial killer's "Girlfriend "
Or worse.
Being passed around in prison like a peace pipe..

I still think you're brilliantly twisted..





I wish I could quit you...

 

[JoStories]

This life is transitory, true life starts after you die, and if you've been good enough you go to heaven.
Now if you baptize your children in that moment he is sin free, why not kill him right than? That would prevent him to be exposed to all the moral corruption of this world, basically you would deny him the chance to sin and go to hell. You re giving him a first class ticket to heaven. Why not?

Would you do this to your own child? And if not, then why on earth would you expect that anyone, regardless of faith or not, would ever even consider such a thing?

 

[JoStories]

Very kind indeed, very Christian indeed.
Ok, just give me the names of such denominations and I will go looking for their theological explanation myself, otherwise I ll assume you are as ignorant as me on the subject

Why would you think that your OP would garner any other responses than somewhat defensive or even snarky responses? It was designed to be provocative. No parent in their right mind would execute their own child. Just because someone is Christian does not mean they are held to some higher pedestal than anyone else. If you insult then, you can expect them to be rude in kind to you.

 

[Katzpur]

This life is transitory, true life starts after you die, and if you've been good enough you go to heaven.
Now if you baptize your children in that moment he is sin free, why not kill him right than? That would prevent him to be exposed to all the moral corruption of this world, basically you would deny him the chance to sin and go to hell. You re giving him a first class ticket to heaven. Why not?

If salvation worked the way you are suggesting, that would be a great idea.

 

[Town Heretic]

larger? Are you really comparing 60 years with the eternity?

Sure. We don't live in decades. We live by moments. No matter what your age your experience of it isn't future or past tense. You may carry the imprint of decades, but that's not where you're found.

Would this distinction be of any significance for a month old child? Could he be ungraceful in any way? Is there the minimal chance for him not to enter heaven in case his dad kills him?

You've already had an answer on the morally problematic notion of murder as virtue. Beyond that, you're talking about something that runs contrary to our faith. The point of this life isn't to see how quickly you can get through it. So attempting to skirt it would itself be contrary to virtue, the good, and its author.

You have no idea about the number of good people that turned bad in the face of an unfair llife

You appear to have no idea of the number of people who've been among the worst of men who, finding God and grace, have become among our best examples. Else, I've answered you on the moral point and gone beyond that above.

 

[columbus]

This life is transitory, true life starts after you die, and if you've been good enough you go to heaven.
Now if you baptize your children in that moment he is sin free, why not kill him right than? That would prevent him to be exposed to all the moral corruption of this world, basically you would deny him the chance to sin and go to hell. You re giving him a first class ticket to heaven. Why not?

What Cambridge is doing here is using an extreme example to illustrate one of the most irrational bits of the standard Abrahamic world view. The vast majority believe that your eternal fate is determined by your response to the environment you are born into. They commonly disagree about the details, but what he described was near exactly what I was taught in Catholic school in the 60s.
This type of belief creates all kinds of cognitive dissonance. It may have made sense to ancient people, but not to me.
Tom

 

[columbus]

You've already had an answer on the morally problematic notion of murder as virtue.

No, he hasn't. There has been much dancing around and appealing to secular laws and evolutionary instincts. But nobody has come close to a theologically rational explanation for why his premise is wrong.
Wouldn't a just and all knowing God recognize that the parent just wanted heaven for their baby?
Tom

 

[Glaurung]

Wouldn't a just and all knowing God recognize that the parent just wanted heaven for their baby?

No, because that same God explicitly forbids murder.

 

[columbus]

No, because that same God explicitly forbids murder.

Without ever being clear about what constitutes murder.

Most people would agree that killing to protect your children's temporal life would be quite justified. It certainly would not be murder. Why is saving their eternal life all that different? Logically, not just an appeal to tradition or secular morality.
Tom

 

[Town Heretic]

No, he hasn't.

Don't know who "he" is, but I did.

There has been much dancing around and appealing to secular laws and evolutionary instincts. But nobody has come close to a theologically rational explanation for why his premise is wrong.

Thou shalt not murder. No matter how good you feel about it, no matter what twisted rationale is proffered for it, what he's advocating in hypothetical is murder and that's contrary to the law and purpose of God, if you're a Christian. I'm reasonably certain most religions would agree on the point.

Without ever being clear about what constitutes murder.

I differ. It's not really complicated, which is why across cultures and faiths the definition is consistent.

Most people would agree that killing to protect your children's temporal life would be quite justified. It certainly would not be murder.

Right. Self defense or the defense of others against an attempt to do what is immoral and unlawful is justified.

Why is saving their eternal life all that different?

Why not do as you're instructed, bring them up in the faith and trust God to claim them according to his purpose? That would be obedient. What his hypothetical advocates is a want of faith and disobedience to God, to our commandment as parents.

 

[Glaurung]

Without ever being clear about what constitutes murder.

Something tells me that killing infants in an attempt to shortcut them to heaven would constitute murder. I shouldn't have to defend something so obvious.

It's not that I don't see the argument, I'm saying it's facetious. Yes, it logically follows that killing a baptized infant would ensure said infant's salvation. But it doesn't follow that such an action is actually justifiable in the Christian framework. This is what you are deliberately ignoring.

Thou shalt not kill applies, even if you sincerely believe that your victim would go to heaven.

 

[gsa]

Something tells me that killing infants in an attempt to shortcut them to heaven would constitute murder. I shouldn't have to defend something so obvious.

It's not that I don't see the argument, I'm saying it's facetious. Yes, it logically follows that killing a baptized infant would ensure said infant's salvation. But it doesn't follow that such an action is actually justifiable in the Christian framework. This is what you are deliberately ignoring.

Thou shalt not kill applies, even if you sincerely believe that your victim would go to heaven.

But if you are a parent who deeply loves their child and wants to ensure their salvation, why would it not be an act of love to murder the baptized infant? Or an infant who has not reached the age of accountability, who will surely go to heaven? Now for some Christians this rationale does not work; I don't know that all Calvinists believe these evil infants will go to heaven unless they are chosen by God for that purpose. But if you are in a denomination that believes murdered infants will go to heaven, well then...you have an incentive to murder your infants.

Sure, you are not supposed to kill your child. But by killing your child, you ensure their eternal salvation. Is that not an act of love in the Christian framework? And really, God can forgive all if you are truly repentant after the fact.