Why don't you accept abiogenesis and evolution?

[rocketman]

When I said the universe "is not complex" I meant the universe is only complex through our understanding.

Well, you introduced the term and then proceeded to knock it down, so I guess you would know what you meant . Anyway, I think we are in agreement that in a strictly scientific sense the universe is neither 'complex' nor 'simple', it just 'is'.

Btw, can you please quote showing who it is you are quoting, especially where you have quoted from more than one person in the same post? It just makes it easier for everyone to follow. Thanks Leero.

.. or proof to why there needs to be a divine intervention in evolution.

Just an observation: No proof, but the door of possibility will probably always stay open on that one. For instance, no one has demonstrated that the finite limitations of mutation were enough to provide all of the necessary raw material from which natural selection could have acted on in the distant past, and they are not likely to show it any time soon. Assumptions of all flavours will continue on both sides.

 

[Evandr]

For the rest of your gibberish, it just shows immaturity. I don't claim I know anything but I'm sure not going to pretend I do, like every religion.

You've still not given me any evidence of miracles or proof to why there needs to be a divine intervention in evolution.

Pretend you say :cover:
Wow, there you go again, speaking in judgment about the understanding, intent, thoughts and wisdom of people down through the ages. I don't have to prove anything to you. If your looking for a sign your going to look a long time with nothing to show for it. It has been amply demonstrated that people rarely respond to signs given for the sake of the sign. You should be interested enough to plant the seeds and see if they grow and then behold the fruit thereof. As it is, your ground is to choked with stones for anything to grow. How Sad because by the time you figure it out, it may be too late to do anything about it. Until then I suppose you will continue to revel in your "ignorance is bliss" attitude and yes, most of my last post was jibberish but that seems to be all you really understand.

 

[UnTheist]

u mad?

 

[Evandr]

u mad?

not at all, simply astonished at how bold one can get with un-supported and utterly non-seneschal assertions.

 

[rojse]

Why is tonight's dinner more tasty than it needs to be?

Tonight's dinner is tasty because we have cultivated animals and crops to taste good, and have spent thousands of years culling what does not taste good.

 

[Leero Applewuss]

At what points in history did the majority of the population believe the earth was flat? Who died for opposing geocentrism? Thanks

h ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

People who opposed the flat-earth ideology were taught of as heretics but the early christian church, at least according to my history professor. Not a whole lot died, most were scared and kept their mouths shut.

 

[Leero Applewuss]

Pretend you say :cover:
Wow, there you go again, speaking in judgment about the understanding, intent, thoughts and wisdom of people down through the ages. I don't have to prove anything to you. If your looking for a sign your going to look a long time with nothing to show for it. It has been amply demonstrated that people rarely respond to signs given for the sake of the sign. You should be interested enough to plant the seeds and see if they grow and then behold the fruit thereof. As it is, your ground is to choked with stones for anything to grow. How Sad because by the time you figure it out, it may be too late to do anything about it. Until then I suppose you will continue to revel in your "ignorance is bliss" attitude and yes, most of my last post was jibberish but that seems to be all you really understand.

What makes these "people down through the ages" so special for you? No matter how many of them where it does not make their ideology right, especially one which to this day still haven't provided one bit of evidence for.

You're here making all these exaggerated claims about me and refuse to give me one bit of evidence towards any religious belief and so called miracles.

Ignorance is bliss? Do tell me what I am ignoring?

 

[Mister Emu]

So... according to your own offered link, flat-earth has been out of the mainstream western world since the 3rd century B.C. which is well before Christ... In the wikipedia article, they have only two clear cases of people supporting a flat earth under the "early church" heading...

 

[Leero Applewuss]

The point of it was that it was the mainstream at some point, showing that no matter how many people follow an idea it doesn't mean it's any more true then if it had only a single supporter.

It's not an issue of which religion killed who for what reason, but the early christian church supported the flat-earth idea.

 

[Mister Emu]

The point of it was that it was the mainstream at some point, showing that no matter how many people follow an idea it doesn't mean it's any more true then if it had only a single supporter.

Unfortunately when people group the flat earth and geocentrism together, and add in deaths, they tend to be speaking, often erroneously, in an unflattering way towards Christianity, especially in the Middle Ages, and that is often the whole point of talking about the subjects... my apologies, I understand your point

the early christian church supported the flat-earth idea.

I'd like some sources for this statement... as my own, albeit shallow, research into the matter turned up pretty much what wikipedia had said, that cases of people supporting a flat-earth model were the rare exception and not the rule...

 

[Leero Applewuss]

No probs


Check this out:
Did the Early Church Believe in a Flat Earth?

It's arguments supporting both sides.

 

[Mister Emu]

I read four of the "sources that say the Early Church taught flat-earth", the first underwent a major rewrite and now agrees with me that there was "some" flat-earth belief in the early church...

The second, quotes a single Early Church Father...

The third is about what the author thinks the Bible reads literally as, while I didn't see anything about what the Early Church taught... though I could have missed it...

I didn't read the fourth... as by the title it looked similar to the third... and the fifth was a bunch of references...

I don't disagree that some early church fathers taught a flat-earth model... but I think you'd have to establish, if not at least a bare majority, then a fair minority that taught it... I don't see that as having been done, though maybe I missed it I'm pretty tired right now

 

[darkendless]

Throughout the history of the world there have been literally billions that have declared a belief in God, even to the point of dying for that belief, were they all foolish liars? Miracles have been wrought by the servants of God and are even ongoing today, I have seen them myself. Given that from every mathematical calculation and/or reasonable train of thought being stymied by it, the theory of pure evolution without the guiding hand of God is mind bogglingly foolish. Why would someone choose to deny the existence of God in the first place? To what end do you buck what is so obvious and even if you don’t see it, why do you try to put down the very foundations upon which nations have prospered? Why do you not see that putting asunder the concepts of God and ignoring His commandments has spelt the doom of many a vast civilizations, we are in line to be one of them, and your not helping?

That was incredibly un-intelligent.

Evolution can be demonstrated. Put it this way, if the rocks your house were sitting on were any less than say 60000 years old, your house would crack and suffer severe structural faults. Bedrock is incredibly stable and solid. Why do you think we usually have to use explosives to put peers in the ground or rediculous sized drills to smash through them. Have you ever heard of the rock cycle? If the world was not 4.5 billion years old or at least 5 million years old, then everything around you would not exist from an engineering perspective as the ground would be too easily de-stabilized by shear stress. The rocks that make up the peninsula i live on are 380 million years old. But hold on doesn't the bible say the earth is only 40,000 years old? Fail!!!! Get a new God with some common sense.

We don't need God. The very system you love so much was given life by Emperor Constantine I where he killed every Pagan that refused to become a Christian, so your all loving religion is just another cult started by lunatics and enforced by the point of the sword for a few centuries. There have been billions of blind sheep over that time believing in God, mainly because they have to, and because they weren't taught any different. Very very sad. Evolution doesn't need a God mechanism. All God represents is a missing link in the chain.

 

[Autodidact]

Throughout the history of the world there have been literally billions that have declared a belief in God, even to the point of dying for that belief, were they all foolish liars?

Neither foolish nor liars, just mistaken, but what on earth does this have to do with the OP? Maybe you should go back and read the question--it was about evolution, not God.

Miracles have been wrought by the servants of God and are even ongoing today, I have seen them myself.

Really? Tell us more. Start a thread!

Given that from every mathematical calculation and/or reasonable train of thought being stymied by it, the theory of pure evolution without the guiding hand of God is mind bogglingly foolish.

The theory of evolution says nothing about whether the hand of God is involved or not. Do you even know what the Theory of Evolution (ToE) is?

Why would someone choose to deny the existence of God in the first place?

I don't know, but what does this question have to do with the OP? Are you under the impression that ToE has something to do with atheism or something? Because it doesn't--it's a scientific theory. You know, kind of like gravity.

To what end do you buck what is so obvious and even if you don’t see it, why do you try to put down the very foundations upon which nations have prospered? Why do you not see that putting asunder the concepts of God and ignoring His commandments has spelt the doom of many a vast civilizations, we are in line to be one of them, and your not helping?

Why are you so ignorant that you don't know that none of your questions have anything to do with the OP?

 

[Autodidact]

I'm constantly suprised by the large number of people who think all Christians believe in God blindly. Of course we have thought over whether God exists or not. And we have come to the conclusion that he does, for a number of different reasons. As Christians, we do think. We do study different theories. And yes, despite everything, we still believe in God. It is an informed choice. Just as believing in Creation is.

Maybe you should start a thread, on this, as the discussion is really derailing this one.

 

[Autodidact]

It only shows that these billions understand that there has to be something other than happenstance. Correct me if I am wrong but I never heard of anybody martyring themselves for the sake of atheism

Take it somewhere else.

 

[Autodidact]

Complexity is a noun. Complex is the adjective.

So it's a relative term then? In that case the universe is complex compared to a hamburger. Please prove that the universe is no more than the minimum it needed to be in order to exist.

Please show what on earth this has to do with the theory of evolution.

 

[Autodidact]

Pretend you say :cover:
Wow, there you go again, speaking in judgment about the understanding, intent, thoughts and wisdom of people down through the ages. I don't have to prove anything to you. If your looking for a sign your going to look a long time with nothing to show for it. It has been amply demonstrated that people rarely respond to signs given for the sake of the sign. You should be interested enough to plant the seeds and see if they grow and then behold the fruit thereof. As it is, your ground is to choked with stones for anything to grow. How Sad because by the time you figure it out, it may be too late to do anything about it. Until then I suppose you will continue to revel in your "ignorance is bliss" attitude and yes, most of my last post was jibberish but that seems to be all you really understand.

Newsflash: It's not just your last post.

 

[Autodidact]

not at all, simply astonished at how bold one can get with un-supported and utterly non-seneschal assertions.

 

[rocketman]

Please show what on earth this has to do with the theory of evolution.

Ask Leero. He introduced the term into this thread.