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Why faith is evil

Nerthus

Wanderlust
I haven't read most of this thread, so if I way off topic now - forgive me!

'Religion' has a whole cannot be evil, it is the people can make it what it is. Even then, the majority of people with faith will not harm anyone or go out and force their beliefs on others. Yes, they might believe in Hell for people who don't share the same faith, but that is something that people are entitled to believe.

I find the extremist/ conservative religious folk who preach and condemn others just as bad as the atheists who say that all religions are bad, wrong and evil. It comes down to people, and you cannot judge an entire religious population based on one group who do bad.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No, I didn't. We would still have mass murders, wars, and violence even if we didn't have any religions. Faith may be used to manipulate people, but it can be anything. The reasons given on why faith is evil can be furthered to many things throughout society. Money and resources are evil. Nationality is evil. Race is evil.
People are lead to believe that their faith is justifying said evil acts, but is it the religion, or the person who is in control? Faith can be dangerous. But you have to have other factors in place before it can present a threat.
But here's the thing: when it comes to actions that affect others (i.e. the things that Dawkins touches on in the OP), if you subject the faith behind them to scrutiny, the good actions are supportable on their own merits, so they can still happen. It's only the bad aspects of faith that would be screened out.

Saying "your religious faith is not enough to justify doing this to me" doesn't stop any good ideas that can be justified on their own merits. It only stops the ones that can't be.

Presence of faith is no more immoral than it's absence. But really that is not what the good professor is discussing here. He is setting up a strawman which he then demolishes.

But that is not how faith works, people don't just have generic 'faith' so that anything goes, faith exists within a community which puts borders around it, a Christian's faith has boundaries, places where they are not supposed to go as does the faith of Muslims, Hindus, Jains, Zoroastrians et al.
It's a feedback system. A religious community has boundaries, but those boundaries are the product of the community that came before it, just as the community today will help to form the boundaries for the community of the future.

Religion is an organic thing. It changes and evolves over time, and I've seen no reason to posit a limit to how far it can grow or what form it can change into. For every strange idea I could ever come up with, I can probably find a religion somewhere that believed it (and more importantly, attributed it to some sort of god) at one point or another.

The boundaries of different faiths can change and have changed over time. Religion is not a static thing. Heck - I don't think it's necessarily even a predictable thing. And in the case of every faith you mentioned, it arose in an environment where it itself was beyond the established boundaries of the society that gave birth to it.

A person's faith is generally in something or someone, it is not some nebulous philosophical concept which floats about in the ether looking for a place to land.
Really? Take Christianity: it's history has included everything from extreme self-denial of asceticism and martyrdom up to the extreme self-indulgence of things like the Prosperity Gospel movement. It's covered everything from extreme pacifism to genocidal "holy war". It's had the Shakers who completely eschewed having children and the "Quiverfull" movement who declares that God commands them to have as many children as they can.

When, apparently, any philosophical idea can be glommed onto the same religious core of a prophet, a set of scriptures, a god, or what-have-you, I don't think we can really say that this core is really guiding people anywhere by itself.

IMO, often, religious faith is a mechanism that allows a person to take whatever opinion they personally hold and elevate it to a position where it's supposed to be unassailable.

The examples he gives are also flawed, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the 9/11 attack are not simply rooted in faith, they are also rooted firmly in socio-political realities, in the politics of power and revenge.
But they all share the common characteristic that they all fall apart when religious faith is removed from the equation.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
No, I didn't. We would still have mass murders, wars, and violence even if we didn't have any religions.


True. And we would have less of those bad things if religions (and for that matter people) relied less on blind faith. That is the point. We are talking about blind faith, remember, not religion.


Faith may be used to manipulate people, but it can be anything.

"Anything" does not usually involve the arrogant and destructive premise that people ought to be allowed to do things against reason simply because they claim to have faith in them. That is what Blind Faith is, and why it is by definition undesirable and completely unnecessary.


The reasons given on why faith is evil can be furthered to many things throughout society.

Not accurately. And more to the point, usually only my mixing them with blind faith, which defeats the purpose of your argument.


Money and resources are evil. Nationality is evil. Race is evil.

They sure are, WHEN used as justifications for blind faith as opposed to used rationally.


People are lead to believe that their faith is justifying said evil acts, but is it the religion, or the person who is in control? Faith can be dangerous. But you have to have other factors in place before it can present a threat.

Which would those factors be?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner

"Anything" does not usually involve the arrogant and destructive premise that people ought to be allowed to do things against reason simply because they claim to have faith in them. That is what Blind Faith is, and why it is by definition undesirable and completely unnecessary.
Some people believe they have so much money that they are better than everyone else. Having faith is not evil. It's not faith that makes one gullible enough to believe that blowing yourself up is the best way to serve your god. It's the person. Their own gullibility, their own ignorance, and their own willingness to be lead like that. Religion and faith just happen to be a very convenient excuse. And there are plenty of instances in which in religion being the true motive is questionable, and plenty of examples on which it was nationality, race, resources, and other things that have caused just as much bad as religion has.
And again, blind faith also causes alot of people to do alot of good, and has many potential benefits for the individual. I don't know about where you are at, but around here most of the homeless shelters, charities, and food pantries are sponsored and ran mostly by those with the "evil" faith. You can't separate the two. We'd have good and bad with it, and we'll have good and bad without it.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
What I want to focus on is what sort of foundation is required for a belief to be morally justified. To me, it requires evidence, and believing things without evidence is immoral--it's too careless with the truth. And that leads to many bad things.

If a belief can be morally justified, it has to be proven. But if it's proven, it ceases to be a belief! :rolleyes: Someone who hates religion badly enough will start spewing this garbage. Dawkins does it and now you're doing it.
 

McBell

Unbound
If a belief can be morally justified, it has to be proven. But if it's proven, it ceases to be a belief! :rolleyes: Someone who hates religion badly enough will start spewing this garbage. Dawkins does it and now you're doing it.
So where doe sthat leave religion?
I mean, since religion cannot be proven, does that mean that it's morals are not justified?
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
I haven't read most of this thread, so if I way off topic now - forgive me!

'Religion' has a whole cannot be evil, it is the people can make it what it is. Even then, the majority of people with faith will not harm anyone or go out and force their beliefs on others. Yes, they might believe in Hell for people who don't share the same faith, but that is something that people are entitled to believe.

I find the extremist/ conservative religious folk who preach and condemn others just as bad as the atheists who say that all religions are bad, wrong and evil. It comes down to people, and you cannot judge an entire religious population based on one group who do bad.

I agree 100% with all of this! :D
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
This is what happens when a marketing strategy is taken to its illogical extreme. Why not start at the beginning, and define faith. Belief in things unseen? Certainty in opposition to empirical evidence? How about this - this thing, right here - the computer. How many switches do they pack on a chip? How long does it take to count to a billion? How about some quantum theory.

The most successful, most widely validated piece of scientific understanding ever to fall out of an ivory tower. Much of the convenience and understanding of this age derives from it, and what is made of? Bohr's complementariness - and Heisenberg's uncertainty. That's right, ladies and germs - at last count, 27% of the GNP of the entire world on uncertainty.

What is faith? Sincerity, sayeth the Webster.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
So where doe sthat leave religion?
I mean, since religion cannot be proven, does that mean that it's morals are not justified?

Morals, when acted out, justify themselves. "Values" is a better word than morals, I think. Better to live your faith and demonstrate your values than just to flap your gums about your values and hope somebody falls in love with your pretty words.

When some constipated British academian proclaims faith to be evil, I am not convinced he has a clue what faith means. It would be like a straight person proclaiming homosexuality to be evil. The level of stupidity is the same.
 
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McBell

Unbound
Morals, when acted out, justify themselves. "Values" is a better word than morals, I think. Better to live your faith and demonstrate your values than just to flap your gums about your values and hope somebody falls in love with your pretty words.
Fair enough.

When some constipated British academian proclaims faith to be evil, I am not convinced he has a clue what faith means.
So you are saying that there is not even one example of what he is saying?
 

McBell

Unbound
People like Richard Dawkins have no problem finding examples to support their hate-speech. It's never a problem for him or Christopher Hitchens.
So then that would be what, a yes?
And if it is a yes, then what exactly is your problem with the statement?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
why is faith evil

ignorance is not bliss

man needs all the help he can in the education department, faith holds that back
 

outhouse

Atheistically
when religion is out of all classrooms I would love to retract that statement.

creation and ID need to be completely dropped, they were only dreamed up to protect the authenticity of the bible.

faith is also evil when it comes to the vaticans stance on conterceptives, in africa were 1 in 4 has aids and the over population is beyond stupididty your churches stance is killing millions [not the millions its killed in the past according to your own scripture] not the countless people its killed in known past history.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
when religion is out of all classrooms I would love to retract that statement.

creation and ID need to be completely dropped, they were only dreamed up to protect the authenticity of the bible.

faith is also evil when it comes to the vaticans stance on conterceptives, in africa were 1 in 4 has aids and the over population is beyond stupididty your churches stance is killing millions [not the millions its killed in the past according to your own scripture] not the countless people its killed in known past history.

How many did Stalin and Lenin and Castro kill? Pol Pot? Mao Tse Tung? North Korea?
 
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