Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[Little Joe Gould]

I posted this in another thread, yet I would like to post it here because I think my logic would be given analysis.

God does not create people to go to Hell, God created people with free will and the choice to form a relationship with Him if they do choose to do so. It is analogous to the way in which one would tape a football game and watch it over again. You know what the players are going to do yet you do not control their actions. God is omniscient. But just because he knows what you are going to do does not mean he made you do it.

 

[Comicaze247]

I posted this in the other thread:

If there is an intelligent designer (God), then I believe he created them for the same reason he created everything else.

HE WAS BORED

 

[leahrachelle]

I posted this in another thread, yet I would like to post it here because I think my logic would be given analysis.

God does not create people to go to Hell, God created people with free will and the choice to form a relationship with Him if they do choose to do so. It is analogous to the way in which one would tape a football game and watch it over again. You know what the players are going to do yet you do not control their actions. God is omniscient. But just because he knows what you are going to do does not mean he made you do it.

Then what is their role then? If they are being created, in the knowledge that they will go to hell anyways, then why are they being created?

 

[Comet]

If God knows all, then he already knew what we'd do and there'd be no sence in creating us!

 

[leahrachelle]

If God knows all, then he already knew what we'd do and there'd be no sence in creating us!

If I had to find an answer, I would say to test the rest of us

 

[Little Joe Gould]

I would also say that love can only exist between two things. If God was the only thing in existence then love could not exist. God couldn't love non-existence. God wanted beautiful creatures things that understand morality and righteousness that can create amazing things to love. Not out of boredom, but out of love.

 

[Comicaze247]

If God knows all, then he already knew what we'd do and there'd be no sence in creating us!

Which is one reason I don't believe in intelligent design

Seriously though, if I were God, being omnipotent and timeless, I'd be bored as hell just sitting there, doing nothing, before I created the Universe. So I'd create the universe just out of sheer boredom. Give me something to watch.

But if I create all the characters in it and give them guidelines on what they should do, but know they're going to do what they want anyway and know exactly what it is they they want to do, wouldn't that be just as boring?

If I were omnipotent like God knew everything, past, present, future, I'd know how everybody and everything would react to every conceivable situation. So free will doesn't even really matter, since I know exactly what you're going to do because I made you, and I made you in a way that you would be wired to do the things you do and therefore experience the things you experience, and take from those experiences what you take from them. So you become what I make you anyway. So is there really free will?

It's like if you were watching a sitcom or soap opera and all the characters did EXACTLY what you wanted them to do. Where would be the drama? The excitement? The suspense? You'd know what's going to happen, you'd know the punch line to each joke. It would still be boring, wouldn't it?

So in my humble opinion, there are 3 possibilities in terms of intelligent design.
1) We really don't have free will because God made and controls everything because he has his Divine Plan
2) We have free will and God doesn't really have a plan, so he made us just out of boredom
3) There's no intelligent designer.

 

[Comicaze247]

I would also say that love can only exist between two things. If God was the only thing in existence then love could not exist. God couldn't love non-existence. God wanted beautiful creatures things that understand morality and righteousness that can create amazing things to love. Not out of boredom, but out of love.

But going by what you're saying, if God was the only thing in existence, love could not exist. So how could he create something out of love if love didn't exist yet?

 

[Beaudreaux]

I posted this in another thread, yet I would like to post it here because I think my logic would be given analysis.

God does not create people to go to Hell, God created people with free will and the choice to form a relationship with Him if they do choose to do so. It is analogous to the way in which one would tape a football game and watch it over again. You know what the players are going to do yet you do not control their actions. God is omniscient. But just because he knows what you are going to do does not mean he made you do it.

Your example of taping a football game is a good one, but your analysis of it is flawed. The difference between me watching a taped football game and God creating people who will go to hell is this: The football game has already happened when I watch the tape, people have not already rejected God when he knows they will. Your analogy is a good one, but it actually reinforces the idea that God created some people knowing that they would go to hell.

Let's use me as an example. I am an atheist and, if you are correct, I will be suffering for eternity in hell. God, if you are correct, is the unmoved mover who created everything and has always existed. I, on the other hand, am NOT infinite and have NOT always existed. This means that there is an infinite amount of time where God existed and I did not. Again, if you are correct, God is all-knowing and knew BEFORE I WAS CREATED that I would reject Him.

Please do not start talking about how God is outside of time. That does not matter for the purposes of this discussion. WE are the ones affected by this foreknowledge and we ARE bound by time. WE are the ones who may be destined for hell before we were born and we ARE bound by time.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Seriously though, if I were God, being omnipotent and timeless, I'd be bored as hell just sitting there, doing nothing, before I created the Universe. So I'd create the universe just out of sheer boredom. Give me something to watch.

An omniscient being cannot be surprised.

Ever read Douglas Adams' "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? In it, there is a being who became immortal by accident and who is having a difficult time dealing with the boredom. At one point on his ship, he asks the computer if there are any movies he hasn't seen 7 thousand times and the computer says something like 'Well, there's one you've only seen 7,134 times....." If God is omniscient, then creating us for entertainment would not provide him any surprise or novelty. Such things do not exist when you already know all.

 

[Bishadi]

I posted this in another thread, yet I would like to post it here because I think my logic would be given analysis.

God does not create people to go to Hell, God created people with free will and the choice to form a relationship with Him if they do choose to do so.

as gen 3: 22

And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

thought since 'creation' was used, it must be genesis based; so i cut the chase

HE SAID< we BE like ..........'one of us' (him)

It is analogous to the way in which one would tape a football game and watch it over again. You know what the players are going to do yet you do not control their actions. God is omniscient. But just because he knows what you are going to do does not mean he made you do it.

but that put a god as being separate from the universe/existence.

but to observe God as all of existence, then we are HIM experiencing life.

Then if God is all of existence (mass, energy, time: everything: as ONE) then for life to evolve and become conscious, aware of both poles of good and bad: then we are experiencing as if by 'free will'..........

but then notice the four corners of the earth
the variations of opinions, languages and experiences

the same trial and error of nature

but with a new twist: the consciousness of mankind, has begun to 'create' by choice and WORDS are the perfect example of such real 'creations'

mankind 'created' the word! (no exceptions)

and mankind is evolving by the transcendent nature of words (can convey an experience felt 1000s of years ago, and another can 'feel' it again, by the use of words)

Knowledge is evolving by trial and error, just as life has done over time (dinosaurs)

that pinnacle seems apparent; that mass will one day comprehend 'its' existence and be able to create life by choice and know it. (thereby living within the contribution)

came back to share something......... notice the line above shares the same as

And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

 

[Troublemane]

Well, the whole idea of God being omniscient and omnipotent may seem to contradict the idea of free will, until you include omnipresence in there. If God is everywhere and everything, then there is no separate entity being punished. All things are part of the divine being, including all happiness and all sadness, too. :angel2:

 

[Riverwolf]

Please do not start talking about how God is outside of time. That does not matter for the purposes of this discussion. WE are the ones affected by this foreknowledge and we ARE bound by time. WE are the ones who may be destined for hell before we were born and we ARE bound by time.

How is our free will affected by someone else's foreknowledge? Since we ourselves don't have foreknowledge, we do have free will to choose our destinies.

Besides, the argument being used by Comicaze is dependent on God being an immortal human, and therefore it is weak.

 

[challupa]

Hmm so maybe God is not a finished creation himself. Maybe we are the tools he uses (bad word) to understand himself and creating is an endless process that unfolds as we keep making new choices? Therefore there is no hell unless we decide there is and we don't go there unless we decide we will. Therefore he didn't create us to go to hell or heaven but to endlessly create more possibilities of experiences.

 

[Beaudreaux]

How is our free will affected by someone else's foreknowledge? Since we ourselves don't have foreknowledge, we do have free will to choose our destinies.

Broken down to its most siimple form:

• Tomorrow you will either have fruit loops for breakfast or you will not
• TODAY, God knows the outcome. Let us say for example that He knows you WILL have fruit loops.
• When tomorrow comes one of two things can happen
  1. You have Fruit Loops and God is right
  2. You don't have Fruit Loops and God is mistaken
• Since God cannot be mistaken, you can ONLY do #1. I know! I know! It FEELS like you are choosing, but when there is only one course of action (the one foreknown by God) then choice is an illusion. You are going to do what God knows you will do and that's it.

 

[McBell]

Broken down to its most siimple form:

• Tomorrow you will either have fruit loops for breakfast or you will not
• TODAY, God knows the outcome. Let us say for example that He knows you WILL have fruit loops.
• When tomorrow comes one of two things can happen
  1. You have Fruit Loops and God is right
  2. You don't have Fruit Loops and God is mistaken
• Since God cannot be mistaken, you can ONLY do #1. I know! I know! It FEELS like you are choosing, but when there is only one course of action (the one foreknown by God) then choice is an illusion. You are going to do what God knows you will do and that's it.

So when I put a steak in the middle of my table then walk out the door to pick my wife up from work and get back and the dog has et said steak, you are saying that the dog had no choice but to eat the steak because I already knew that the dog would eat it before the dog ate it?

Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[Comicaze247]

An omniscient being cannot be surprised.

Ever read Douglas Adams' "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? In it, there is a being who became immortal by accident and who is having a difficult time dealing with the boredom. At one point on his ship, he asks the computer if there are any movies he hasn't seen 7 thousand times and the computer says something like 'Well, there's one you've only seen 7,134 times....." If God is omniscient, then creating us for entertainment would not provide him any surprise or novelty. Such things do not exist when you already know all.

Did you read my entire post? I made the same point in it that you just did.

 

[Comicaze247]

Besides, the argument being used by Comicaze is dependent on God being an immortal human, and therefore it is weak.

I was using the example of me being God as a joke.

The point I made about free will still remains. If I knew how you were wired and what you'd experience and how you'd react to those experiences, being an all-knowing being, I'd know exactly what you'd do just based on how I made you. So how is that still free will?

 

[gnomon]

I posted this in another thread, yet I would like to post it here because I think my logic would be given analysis.

God does not create people to go to Hell, God created people with free will and the choice to form a relationship with Him if they do choose to do so. It is analogous to the way in which one would tape a football game and watch it over again. You know what the players are going to do yet you do not control their actions. God is omniscient. But just because he knows what you are going to do does not mean he made you do it.

You are stating that God is not omnipotent or chooses not to do so. In the first case, being omniscient but not omnipotent, God would have foreknowledge of every misery but be unable to do anything about it. However, one can see the argument that such a God could create humanity with the tools to seek wisdom. A gnostic argument but not a traditional Western from of Christianity. Such a position would also make room for a contradictory evil force separate from God.

However, if you are stating that God is both then it may set the case that God is neither a loving God nor a good God.

My biggest problem, aside from paradox games involving omniscience and what not, is the concept of individual humans developing a close relationship with God in light of infant deaths and, pardon me for being blunt, severe mental retardation. The Church and many theologians have already addressed the concept of infants with baptism and so on but what about the human mind so developmentally subdued that stating such a person develops a relationship with an abstract and highly contentious concept in the same manner that an individual with a standard or greater IQ can is outright absurd.

Of course, that's when the cheaters just insert reincarnation.

 

[Comicaze247]

So when I put a steak in the middle of my table then walk out the door to pick my wife up from work and get back and the dog has et said steak, you are saying that the dog had no choice but to eat the steak because I already knew that the dog would eat it before the dog ate it?

Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

I think his point is based on the idea that God is infallible. He can't be wrong. So he knows what you're going to do, and if he were wrong, that would undo his infallibility.

You are human, so you can be wrong.