Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[Beaudreaux]

So when I put a steak in the middle of my table then walk out the door to pick my wife up from work and get back and the dog has et said steak, you are saying that the dog had no choice but to eat the steak because I already knew that the dog would eat it before the dog ate it?

Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

There is a difference between you "knowing" the dog would eat the steak and God "knowing". While you are VERY certain that the dog would eat the steaka there is still a possibility you could be wrong. Perhaps a burgler breaks in and your dog is let out before he eats the steak. Perhaps a faulty gas line connection causes your house to explode before he can eat it. Highly improbable, but possible. You COULD be wrong.

God CANNOT be wrong. If He knows something is going to happen, including human "choices", that that's what's going to happen. Otherwise God would be wrong.

 

[Riverwolf]

Broken down to its most siimple form:

• Tomorrow you will either have fruit loops for breakfast or you will not
• TODAY, God knows the outcome. Let us say for example that He knows you WILL have fruit loops.
• When tomorrow comes one of two things can happen
  1. You have Fruit Loops and God is right
  2. You don't have Fruit Loops and God is mistaken
• Since God cannot be mistaken, you can ONLY do #1. I know! I know! It FEELS like you are choosing, but when there is only one course of action (the one foreknown by God) then choice is an illusion. You are going to do what God knows you will do and that's it.

So? So long as we have the "illusion" of free will, we have free will. As far as God's concerned we don't have free will, or rather, as far as God's concerned, he knows what our free will is going to bring about.

It's all about perspective.

 

[dawny0826]

Then what is their role then? If they are being created, in the knowledge that they will go to hell anyways, then why are they being created?

I believe that only God knows why we're here but the important point here is that hell doesn't have to be. We choose hell.

 

[Riverwolf]

I was using the example of me being God as a joke.

The point I made about free will still remains. If I knew how you were wired and what you'd experience and how you'd react to those experiences, being an all-knowing being, I'd know exactly what you'd do just based on how I made you. So how is that still free will?

From God's perspective, it's not.

From our perspective, it is. Because WE don't have foreknowledge.

 

[Comicaze247]

From God's perspective, it's not.

From our perspective, it is. Because WE don't have foreknowledge.

. . . so . . . just because we don't KNOW what we're going to do in the future means we have free will? So the way God created us, which would result in who we are, and therefore, what we'd do, and what we'd experience, and how we'd react to those experiences, still makes it random implying we have free will?

 

[gnomon]

So? So long as we have the "illusion" of free will, we have free will. As far as God's concerned we don't have free will, or rather, as far as God's concerned, he knows what our free will is going to bring about.

It's all about perspective.

If you have the illusion of free will that is all you have.....the illusion. Not free will.

Yes, people may posses a perspective of reality but doesn't make it necessarily so. Delusional and what not.

Which makes arguments over God, free will and what not nothing more than circular messes in my opinion.

I'm still going to eat this pizza. Unless a meteor hits me before I get it to my mouth.

 

[McBell]

There is a difference between you "knowing" the dog would eat the steak and God "knowing". While you are VERY certain that the dog would eat the steaka there is still a possibility you could be wrong. Perhaps a burgler breaks in and your dog is let out before he eats the steak. Perhaps a faulty gas line connection causes your house to explode before he can eat it. Highly improbable, but possible. You COULD be wrong.

God CANNOT be wrong. If He knows something is going to happen, including human "choices", that that's what's going to happen. Otherwise God would be wrong.

I see.
So you are playing on the omni-ness nonsense that most people attach to God?

 

[Little Joe Gould]

I am going to try and rephrase an argument here...

Knowledge of what is going to happen does not mean that what someone will do is being controlled. I guess it comes down to the definition of free will itself. It's all about choices. I don't see why God knowing what we are going to do makes him force us to do it. If you quiet your mind and listen to God he will guide you in the right direction. It is a choice of whether or not you want to submit to your conscience or not. He gives everyone the opportunity to choose right from wrong.

 

[Comicaze247]

I am going to try and rephrase an argument here...

Knowledge of what is going to happen does not mean that what someone will do is being controlled. I guess it comes down to the definition of free will itself. It's all about choices. I don't see why God knowing what we are going to do makes him force us to do it. If you quiet your mind and listen to God he will guide you in the right direction. It is a choice of whether or not you want to submit to your conscience or not. He gives everyone the opportunity to choose right from wrong.

Yes, but God is all knowing, right? And he creates all of us, right? Therefore, he knows everything about us. So he would know everything about us even before he made us. Because he controls our wiring, and therefore our personality, and therefore our choices, he's already made our decisions for us.

Sure, he doesn't force us to do it, but that's because he knows we have no choice, because we're going to do it anyway.

If we had free will, wouldn't our choices interfere with his Divine Plan?

Since he has a Divine Plan, doesn't that mean our choices are already mapped out for us?

And if our choices aren't mapped, how would it be a plan?

All these questions not having sufficient enough answers for me leads me to believe one thing: there is no intelligent designer.

 

[McBell]

If we had free will, wouldn't our choices interfere with his Divine Plan?

Of course it does.
Here is short list of things we mere mortal humans do to screw up his plan:

Abortion
Euthanasia
Birth control
Stem cell research
Capital Punishment
​

 

[Comicaze247]

Of course it does.
Here is short list of things we mere mortal humans do to screw up his plan:

Abortion
Euthanasia
Birth control
Stem cell research
Capital Punishment
​

Exactly!
Creationists can't possibly claim that this is both the "will of God" and against God's will at the same time.
So that means we have free will. But he has a divine plan? He can't have given us both free will and a divine plan.
Again, my conclusion: we have free will because there is no intelligent designer.

 

[McBell]

Again, my conclusion: we have free will because there is no intelligent designer.

Another possibility is that God is not all knowing and/or all powerful.
Perhaps God is not infallible nor inerrant as well.

Of course, far to many people would have to discard their security blanket to even conceive of such a notion.

 

[Comicaze247]

Another possibility is that God is not all knowing and/or all powerful.
Perhaps God is not infallible nor inerrant as well.

Of course, far to many people would have to discard their security blanket to even conceive of such a notion.

And accepting such a notion would defy the entire basis of many religions.

 

[rojse]

I posted this in the other thread:

If there is an intelligent designer (God), then I believe he created them for the same reason he created everything else.

HE WAS BORED

So many things explained with this...

 

[Riverwolf]

. . . so . . . just because we don't KNOW what we're going to do in the future means we have free will? So the way God created us, which would result in who we are, and therefore, what we'd do, and what we'd experience, and how we'd react to those experiences, still makes it random implying we have free will?

If you have the illusion of free will that is all you have.....the illusion. Not free will.

Yes, people may posses a perspective of reality but doesn't make it necessarily so. Delusional and what not.

Which makes arguments over God, free will and what not nothing more than circular messes in my opinion.

I'm still going to eat this pizza. Unless a meteor hits me before I get it to my mouth.

Bit about myself, guys. I adapt the Buddhist philosophy that everything is an illusion. What's there is not what we see; what we see is only the light that our visual receptors(eyes) pick up which our brains then interpret. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." yoda: ) Same applies with our other senses.

If everything else is illusion, why can't free will be an illusion as well? Even if you take God out of the picture (I don't worship the Abrahamic God), look at time as if it were a dimension along the same lines of the three that we can move around in. Philosophically speaking, I believe time is nothing other than a dimension, one that we can perceive but not move freely around in.

Keep in mind this is not like the Matrix, where everything is an artificial illusion, created by someone else. Our limited minds have created the illusion themselves, but we are living in the "real" world, I think. We just don't know what it's like. We can only perceive what our minds understand.

 

[Riverwolf]

Okay...

What if God didn't create each and every one of us, but created the first ones, then let things play out on their own? He created the original laws of nature, planted the original seeds of existence, then just sat back and let it all play out?

 

[Beaudreaux]

I see.
So you are playing on the omni-ness nonsense that most people attach to God?

Not so much playing on it as pointing out a logical conlusion that must be drawn if it is true.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I am going to try and rephrase an argument here...

Knowledge of what is going to happen does not mean that what someone will do is being controlled. I guess it comes down to the definition of free will itself. It's all about choices. I don't see why God knowing what we are going to do makes him force us to do it. If you quiet your mind and listen to God he will guide you in the right direction. It is a choice of whether or not you want to submit to your conscience or not. He gives everyone the opportunity to choose right from wrong.

Joe, is it possible for you to fool God? Is there ANY way that you can make a choice that will surprise him?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Okay...

What if God didn't create each and every one of us, but created the first ones, then let things play out on their own? He created the original laws of nature, planted the original seeds of existence, then just sat back and let it all play out?

Not sure what this changes here. Can you elaborate?

 

[Riverwolf]

Not sure what this changes here. Can you elaborate?

It's a counter to the argument that God created our wiring and all that.

I'm basically trying to throw out the possibility that God doesn't control us and never did because he was only present at the start; the very, very, very start. He made all the things and then let themselves play out. He knew how they would play out, but he has no control over how the human mind plays out or how it works.