Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[Beaudreaux]

Maybe the ones who are evil remind the others that they should behave differently.

...so, like Jeffery Dahmer is a reminder to you not to kill and eat people? Do you really need that kind of reminder!?! If you do, please Please PLEASE keep it on your Ipod and listen to it in a constant loop always.

 

[Beaudreaux]

"God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent..."

He has provided a way for men to escape the penalty of sin.

But he knew exactly which ones would not escape, yet he made them anyway.

 

[HoldemDB9]

"God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent..."

He has provided a way for men to escape the penalty of sin.

And those who find that way will escape the penalty of sin, regardless of how they came to find the way? What about someone who tried their hardest to find truth, but did not find the actual true way? What about someone who was born in Saudi Arabia and has heard of the Bible. Sure they've heard of the Bible, but it is obviously much more likely that they are going to be Muslim - its hardly a choice.

Of course there is no point in me even asking you these things if you believe that followers of all religions are going to be saved - so do you? Or do you believe that only followers of a certain religion will be saved for no reason other than that the happened to be right?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The only sensible answer is that god is a misanthrope with a sick sense of humor.

Period.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes, but he has a Divine Plan, right? If he had no control over how the human mind plays out or how it works, how would he have a Divine Plan?

It's like a game of Stratego.

How you place the pieces before the game starts can be crucial to victory or defeat. The difference is that instead of controlling your pieces, you tell them what to do, and whether or not they listen is up to them. You know all the moves you want to make, and as the game plays out, you watch your opponent's moves closely to determine what their pieces are, where their bombs are, and where their flag is. Short-term strategies change as the game continues, but the overall goal remains the same.

I've always thought of the Abrahamic God as the ultimate strategist; the only being that could beat the most difficult difficulty of Chessmaster. ^_^

 

[Riverwolf]

The wiring or the "how" of it does not matter. What matters is that he knows with certainty every action that you will take. Despite what you may feel, if he KNOWS your future actions, then that's what they will be. You cannot take any action that differs. Being able to take only one action is not a choice.

Yes it is. He knows the choice. He doesn't choose for me. He knows what choice I'd make, just like a chess player knows when his opponent is going to move his checked king.

 

[science_is_my_god]

I posted this in another thread, yet I would like to post it here because I think my logic would be given analysis.

God does not create people to go to Hell, God created people with free will and the choice to form a relationship with Him if they do choose to do so. It is analogous to the way in which one would tape a football game and watch it over again. You know what the players are going to do yet you do not control their actions. God is omniscient. But just because he knows what you are going to do does not mean he made you do it.

So you mean to tell me I can do something BESIDES what this omniscient god of yours knows I will do? If so, he is not omniscient. If not, then it's not free will. Just because you don't control the actions of the football players doesn't mean that it would be possible for them to do anything else other than what was pre-recorded. Every time you watch that football game, you will see the same outcome every time. That, my friend, is NOT free will.

 

[logician]

An omnisicent god cannot exist in a chaotic universe by definition, and it can be proven that an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent god cannot exist in our universe.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Originally Posted by Beaudreaux
The wiring or the "how" of it does not matter. What matters is that he knows with certainty every action that you will take. Despite what you may feel, if he KNOWS your future actions, then that's what they will be. You cannot take any action that differs. Being able to take only one action is not a choice.

Yes it is. He knows the choice. He doesn't choose for me. He knows what choice I'd make, just like a chess player knows when his opponent is going to move his checked king.

So, you believe that a situation which allows ONLY ONE possible action is a choice? Wow...I don't know how to address that.

Your chess player example does not work. Many people who try to defeat this argument do not understand that there is not much of a human analog. The chess player can do MANY things other than moving his King to a particular square. He could resign. He could get up and walk away. He is not forced into that action. BUT, if God KNOWS what he will do, then he has no other choice whether he is conscious of it or not. He WILL do what God already knows he will. How could he do anything else?

 

[Riverwolf]

So, you believe that a situation which allows ONLY ONE possible action is a choice? Wow...I don't know how to address that.

Your chess player example does not work. Many people who try to defeat this argument do not understand that there is not much of a human analog. The chess player can do MANY things other than moving his King to a particular square. He could resign. He could get up and walk away. He is not forced into that action. BUT, if God KNOWS what he will do, then he has no other choice whether he is conscious of it or not. He WILL do what God already knows he will. How could he do anything else?

The living equivalent to resigning and walking away would be to commit suicide, i.e., giving up. Striving to be a warrior, I believe that, unless you're playing against an unfair computer(i.e., Chessmaster ), giving up is dishonorable and cowardly, and therefore not an option.

Maybe a better way to phrase my chess example, this time assuming the player is not considering giving up or resigning, would be to move to protect his king, whether that be moving the king itself or moving another piece to block his king.

Still using chess as an example, a good chess player can see every single possible move that an opponent can make, in theory five moves ahead, and plan his strategy accordingly. A God who is bound by time and only exists with us in the present, knows every single possible decision a person can make, far into infinity, even if the number of possible choices are infinite.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

And those who find that way will escape the penalty of sin, regardless of how they came to find the way? What about someone who tried their hardest to find truth, but did not find the actual true way? What about someone who was born in Saudi Arabia and has heard of the Bible. Sure they've heard of the Bible, but it is obviously much more likely that they are going to be Muslim - its hardly a choice.

Of course there is no point in me even asking you these things if you believe that followers of all religions are going to be saved - so do you? Or do you believe that only followers of a certain religion will be saved for no reason other than that the happened to be right?

I believe that only sinners go to hell.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

But he knew exactly which ones would not escape, yet he made them anyway.

When you see Him, maybe you'll ask Him about that.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I believe that only sinners go to hell.

You'll be the only one in heaven then.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

You'll be the only one in heaven then.

That's a totally off the wall assumption.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That's a totally off the wall assumption.

No it's not. I did forget though, there will be one other person there, Jesus. The rest of us are sinners.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

No it's not. I did forget though, there will be one other person there, Jesus. The rest of us are sinners.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

 

[sandy whitelinger]

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

So, you haven't sinned lately?

 

[science_is_my_god]

Still using chess as an example, a good chess player can see every single possible move that an opponent can make, in theory five moves ahead, and plan his strategy accordingly. A God who is bound by time and only exists with us in the present, knows every single possible decision a person can make, far into infinity, even if the number of possible choices are infinite.

The problem with this analogy is this:
There is a difference between knowing what your opponent should do in chess and what they actually end up doing. Just because the most logical move would be to, say, capture your queen, doesn't mean they actually will. But it's the idea of a god knowing exactly what they will do and not what they should do that kills off free will.

 

[Riverwolf]

The problem with this analogy is this:
There is a difference between knowing what your opponent should do in chess and what they actually end up doing. Just because the most logical move would be to, say, capture your queen, doesn't mean they actually will. But it's the idea of a god knowing exactly what they will do and not what they should do that kills off free will.

And assuming God is withing the boundaries of time, he doesn't know exactly what we're going to do. He just knows all the possible choices we're going to make. For all intents and purposes, that's about as close to knowing the future as you can get.

But that's assuming God is still subject to time. God as he's often described is not. He is beyond time, able to move around it as freely as we can move in our three dimensions. Therefore he does know exactly what we're going to do. As far as he's concerned, we don't have free will. (and, to be honest, I see no problem with that)

HOWEVER, we do still have the illusion of free will because WE DON'T KNOW. He never tells us the future. (I don't believe in divine prophecy) If he told us what we were going to do, we'd do the opposite just to prove him wrong. That would not help his cause.

 

[science_is_my_god]

And assuming God is withing the boundaries of time, he doesn't know exactly what we're going to do. He just knows all the possible choices we're going to make. For all intents and purposes, that's about as close to knowing the future as you can get.

But that's assuming God is still subject to time. God as he's often described is not. He is beyond time, able to move around it as freely as we can move in our three dimensions. Therefore he does know exactly what we're going to do. As far as he's concerned, we don't have free will. (and, to be honest, I see no problem with that)

HOWEVER, we do still have the illusion of free will because WE DON'T KNOW. He never tells us the future. (I don't believe in divine prophecy) If he told us what we were going to do, we'd do the opposite just to prove him wrong. That would not help his cause.

Even if the god in question knows all possible outcomes and potential choices given in those circumstances, we (humans) still only get one choice to make. We don't get other chances to "re-choose" things. And if a god knows what that one choice will be, it is NOT free will because we won't be able to choose anything other than that choice, even if there are other potential choices and the god knows what all of those choices are. And, if you're telling me that this god doesn't think we have free will, then why (assuming abrahamic god here, but insert your god of choice) are we still held accountable for sin? And I like your use of the words: "illusion of free will'" because thats exactly what you make it sound like.