Why has LHR hijacked the word magic?

[serp777]

I mean clearly the word magic in this DIR has been hijacked to give Setians the illusion of being special and cryptic. Why do that?

mag·ic
ˈmajik/
noun

1. 1.
   the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using supernatural forces.

Is it magic in the sense like fake magic that magicians do? Like a card trick or whatever? They of course took the word to give themselves a more grandiose image and enhance the experience, rather than just saying they're tricksters.

I expect some people to call me ignorant or whatever out of anger spite or something, but I asked and I have no idea what the purpose of using this word is. Do people in this DIR also believe in the supernatural and particularly real magic that defies the laws of physics?

 

[Mindmaster]

Supernatural is a funny word...

su·per·nat·u·ral
ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: supernatural

1. 1.
   (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
   "a supernatural being"
   synonyms: paranormal, psychic, magic, magical, occult, mystic, mystical, superhuman, supernormal;More
   rareextramundane
   "supernatural powers"
   ghostly, phantom, spectral, otherworldly, unearthly, unnatural
   "a supernatural being"
   • unnaturally or extraordinarily great.
     "a woman of supernatural beauty"

noun
noun: supernatural; plural noun: supernaturals

1. 1.
   manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin, such as ghosts.

It merely means that it happens by a process that science can't explain, and whether science can define it doesn't reflect its nature. As far as the actual use of magic it is a tool in the toolbox and whether you believe in it or not it works if done properly -- the only thing stopping you might be fear of using such a tool. For theistic Satanists magic is used to control ones local microcosm and align it to ones nature. It is used to manifest our will into the world and demonstrate our dominion in that area.

Stage magicians have hijacked the word -- my explanation is the historical use other than the bits that specifically address my religion.

 

[Adramelek]

Black Magick = the Art of changing or altering the equilibrium of the subjective universe in order to produce a similar or proportionate change in the equilibrium of the objective universe in accordance with the Will.

There is a three-fold process in the practice of Black Magick:

I. Origination - all Magick originates from within the mind. Abstract and subjective thought.

II. Manifestation - the refinement of the Will through Ritual Magic employed by the Magician and to make his/her Will known to the Universe.

III. Crystallization - the realization of the Magicians Will in a definite form within the fabric of the objective universe. Subjective thought, ideas become objective reality.

 

[Quintessence]

In order to understand how magic is understood by the occult communities, LHP or otherwise, you're going to want to start with discarding the erroneous assumption that this language was selected for the purpose of some sort of posturing. Magic has been (and continues to be) a major component of the world's religions. Fundamentally, it is about the universal human need to feel we have some measure of control over our lot in life. With respect to LHP in particular, the practice of magic is frequently an acknowledgement of one's own personal power and coming into that power in a way that is true to oneself (as opposed to conforming to the wishes of some external influence). I know of very few individuals (probably none, to be honest) within the occult communities that regard magic as something that defines known laws of reality. It may be considered inexplicable, perhaps, but none of us are living in LOTR fantasy films here.

 

[AnnaCzereda]

Magic doesn't have to deal with the supernatural forces. Magic is simply changing the world, other people and also yourself according to the will of the magician. Anton LaVey wrote about two kinds of magic; Greater Magic and Lesser Magic. Lesser Magic is simply manipulation of others and it doesn't have to be malicious. Greater Magic is changing your surroundings via a ritual. And though atheistic Satanists don't believe in supernatural forces, there are some things that haven't yet been discovered by science. Magister Nemo from the Church of Satan even coined a word "supernormal" to describe that which we don't know yet. Human mind is still a mystery and some people really believe that the strong emotions release energy during the ritual and that energy can influence the unconscious minds of their targets or alter the future events according to their own desire. Even Jung wrote about collective unconscious. So who knows? Perhaps, people really can influence each other without even knowing it.

And don't forget about theistic Satanists. Plenty of them believe in Satan as a supernatural entity.

 

[Mindmaster]

And don't forget about theistic Satanists. Plenty of them believe in Satan as a supernatural entity.

I would argue ultimately supernatural and natural distinctions are in effect imaginary and are more of a matter of linguistic convenience. Even if you experience something in a subjective way it is completely within your nature to do so. I feel most of the time when this wording is used it will be used in the context of someone who is afraid to investigate the matter themselves, or moreover afraid that whatever they've been telling themselves is incorrect. Generally, just this being dismissive in an afford to avoid addressing the matter properly and subtlely suggesting that maybe the person making the statement or holding the opinion is not credible. It has come to the point where when I hear the word supernatural I am almost immediately starting to chuckle.

 

[Daelach]

Magic can form consciousness, that's the "applied psychology" aspect. You see, the scientific physicians acknowledge the placebo effect, but magic is a way to actually make use of it. Or more generally speaking, magic is a helpful tool for realising one's full potential, unhindered by adverse beliefs. Remember however that this is not the only limit to what we can do - solipsism just doesn't hold water in practice.

There is more than this minimum way magic can work, but as a matter of fact, magic is not a replacement for technology. That's why we have technology in the first place.

 

[VioletVortex]

They didn't hijack it. They use the term. Magick is manipulating your environment in an unconventional way.

 

[ScottySatan]

I'll use whatever word I please for whatever reason I wish. My word use might betray ignorance or plagiarism. No one else might understand a damned thing I say. But it's my word to say. My words have the power of me inside them. The impression that my word leaves on others is my responsibility.

I don't see any problem with using a word that someone else has used before. To me your question was about the same as a christian asking other christians, "The apostle paul has already breathed. Why do you need to breathe now? You're doing it differently". It's absurd.

 

[Kapalika]

is it magic in the sense like fake magic that magicians do? Like a card trick or whatever? They of course took the word to give themselves a more grandiose image and enhance the experience, rather than just saying they're tricksters.?

It might benefit you to read up on Crowley and his ideas about Magick and just generally on the psychological role and purpose of ritual, both spiritual and in our daily lives. The Temple of Set in particular is very heavily influenced by Crowley, but with a different mindset at least with their organization. Magic does include the supernatural beliefs, and I think more Setians than not have some kind of theistic bent, but belief in supernaturalism isn't necessary to practice magic.

However for those (like me) who don't subscribe to supernaturalism it's more about the lineage of the practice as-to-why I still use the word. Historically, what I do and what supernaturalists do are tied together. The mechanisms that lead them to believe that they were healing the sick, changing the weather and bringing both curses and blessings are the same mechanisms that allows the atheistic and naturalist practioner to recondition themselves or others involved. Or to explore their own issues, personality, selves, or reflect. It's a toolbox of practices with roots in several world religions that are effective when you know how to use them, but possibly insanity-inducing if you don't know what your doing.

Think of it as a way of reprogramming. Evolution is step by step, it has no foresight, and so programs like our minds have many weird glitches, as do our bodies. We just take advantage of some of those glitches, and the most powerful practices of old make use of both our body and our mind in conjunction in a ritual and/or magic. For example Kundalini meditation isn't just psychological, there is an actual set of physiological phenomena playing off of what your mind is doing. The 'energy' rising up the spine isn't totally "real" nor totally "imagined", it's a combination of both, which just makes them feed off of each other until the yogi reaches a critical point and it might as well be a totally supernatural experience for as far as their perception tells them. It's when you get to that point that things get really interesting, and the most progress gets done spiritually.

The nueroscientist Sam Harris, although an atheist, practices and writes books on things like meditation and maybe some of what we would call magic (not totally sure, I've not really read a lot of his books, it's on my to-do list though lol), but his reasons are for inner-change and so he doesn't see it as anything else but a natural psychological process.

You can change your life with magic, but you can't fry an egg with it.

It merely means that it happens by a process that science can't explain, and whether science can define it doesn't reflect its nature.

I would wager that science can explain parts of the magical experience, although most people are not aware of this, even many scientific laymen and many scientists who are not in field of study that would allow them to 'get it'. For cultural reasons there hasn't been a lot of proper science done on magical and mystical experiences, even if there has been a lot of psedoscientific research in the last century by those trying to "prove" psychic phenomena is true. I would be very interested to see what we might learn if those few who researched these experiences started asking the "right questions", so to speak. But studying inner-experience is a very difficult thing to do. Synesthesia was thought to be a myth for years until people started figuring out a way to reliably test it. I imagine that magical experiences are very similar in that way.

Magic doesn't have to deal with the supernatural forces. Magic is simply changing the world, other people and also yourself according to the will of the magician. Anton LaVey wrote about two kinds of magic; Greater Magic and Lesser Magic. Lesser Magic is simply manipulation of others and it doesn't have to be malicious. Greater Magic is changing your surroundings via a ritual. And though atheistic Satanists don't believe in supernatural forces, there are some things that haven't yet been discovered by science.

I don't want to start an argument in a DIR, but I'd like to just point out that this idea is still superstition from my worldview as a practitioner myself. In my opinion there just isn't any plausible way that something done in the privacy of your home can have any direct affect on other people who don't know about it. Technically it might affect them in your future actions or disposition towards them, but that's only because the ritual changed you (and anyone else present).

 

[Mindmaster]

Just to sort of two cents you, Mandi.

Setians believe magic arises as a supernatural or rather super-rational type of process. Most of the mystical LHP believes magic=nature=everything else. The processes aren't disconnected like this. Supernatural is a meaningless word to me, basically... I mean what exactly do you not know of that is not natural?

Also people are lost on processes of magic and domestic concerns -- it's far easier to fry an egg with pan over fire than it is to do it with your mind. I've known guys that could "do it with their mind" but these were masters with years of chigong and really again -- it is efficiency... As cool as it sounds... 5 mins in a pan is easier... Sometimes easier = better.

 

[Adramelek]

Setians believe magic arises as a supernatural or rather super-rational type of process. Most of the mystical LHP believes magic=nature=everything else. The processes aren't disconnected like this. Supernatural is a meaningless word to me, basically... I mean what exactly do you not know of that is not natural?

I think you are using confusing and misleading words here such as "supernatural" and "super-rational" when referring to Setians. Setians explore, study, and practice the "supra-natural" and spiritual dynamism. This is more attuned to Setian philosophy and Magick. Also, frying an egg with your mind? There is someone I know whose brain I'd love to fry.

 

[serp777]

I'll use whatever word I please for whatever reason I wish. My word use might betray ignorance or plagiarism. No one else might understand a damned thing I say. But it's my word to say. My words have the power of me inside them. The impression that my word leaves on others is my responsibility.

I don't see any problem with using a word that someone else has used before. To me your question was about the same as a christian asking other christians, "The apostle paul has already breathed. Why do you need to breathe now? You're doing it differently". It's absurd.

Language doesn't work to well if everyone just arbitrarily defined words however they want. If no one could agree on language and used whatever words you wished at random, language wouldn't work in the first place. Language has to remain somewhat consistent so that you can convey ideas. It would be ridiculous if people just decided to randomly change words to completely different things. Imagine changing the word "the" to mean dog food. Well, sure i guess you can do that, but that's not a sensible thing to do. And I never said a words definition can never change or have different meanings; i simply find the labeling of those guys as magicians as ridiculous as if you called them LHR jedi, or LHR airbenders, or LHR quantum physicists. The best, most accurate label, would be to call them LHR average joes.

Let me fix your analogy though because it reflects a complete strawman. It would be more like if they said "Okay, so even though breathing means the repeated inhalation and exhalation of atmosphere in the lungs, we're going to change breathing to mean expelling evil spirits. Therefore, instead of doing exorcisms we can now just breathe instead." That's just a dumb thing to do though because its a pointless confusion; words which have different meanings are at least are usually somewhat related. Therefore im asking what on earth is the justification for calling these dudes magicians even though they aren't related to any kind of magic as traditionally defined, even fake magic used by street magicians, in any sense.

 

[serp777]

In order to understand how magic is understood by the occult communities, LHP or otherwise, you're going to want to start with discarding the erroneous assumption that this language was selected for the purpose of some sort of posturing. Magic has been (and continues to be) a major component of the world's religions. Fundamentally, it is about the universal human need to feel we have some measure of control over our lot in life. With respect to LHP in particular, the practice of magic is frequently an acknowledgement of one's own personal power and coming into that power in a way that is true to oneself (as opposed to conforming to the wishes of some external influence). I know of very few individuals (probably none, to be honest) within the occult communities that regard magic as something that defines known laws of reality. It may be considered inexplicable, perhaps, but none of us are living in LOTR fantasy films here.

Well I don't think its necessarily an erroneous assumption. Magician sounds much better than a hippie meditating and or going on a spiritual quest to find personal identity.

the practice of magic is frequently an acknowledgement of one's own personal power and coming into that power in a way that is true to oneself

What personal power though? You mean personal strength and or the ability to influence others? Then everyone is a magician at that point. Magician then just means average guy. I mean the posturing explanation still seems reasonable at least because they want to differentiate themselves from others by trying to imply a special/interesting element. I fail to see how posturing wouldn't have come into this. All religions pretty much posture anyways so that seems consistent. I still fail to understand why magician is a reasonable or justifiable label.

Religions historically use magic though because religions rely on the supernatural as the basis of their entire organization/ideology. Without the supernatural religion becomes philosophy. So yes I agree magic is relevant to religions, but only because the religious actually use it in the way that its traditionally understood--the manipulation of something by means of supernatural phenomena. In other words something which cannot be justified according to the laws of physics. Because if it operates according to the laws of physics then its just reality, and not magic. In my opinion, the word magic has to correspond to the supernatural in some sense because that's what previous definitions have been about and that's what current definitions are about. Taking the supernatural out of magic is like taking the inhalation of atmosphere into the lungs out of breathing. It just makes no sense to redefine it as such. MAy as well call them Jedis, or air benders, or quantum physicists. Plus LHR jedis sounds a lot cooler anyways. just redefine anything you want to sound better basically. Now obviously this is just my opinion though.

I know of very few individuals (probably none, to be honest) within the occult communities that regard magic as something that defines known laws of reality.

But then they hijacked the word for posturing, what other explanation is there? I mean they stole it from religious people who believe in Jesus doing some sorcery to turn water into wine, or Jonah living in a whale, etc. jesus turning water into wine or casting devils into a flock of pigs is certainly the original use of magic.

 

[serp777]

It might benefit you to read up on Crowley and his ideas about Magick and just generally on the psychological role and purpose of ritual, both spiritual and in our daily lives. The Temple of Set in particular is very heavily influenced by Crowley, but with a different mindset at least with their organization. Magic does include the supernatural beliefs, and I think more Setians than not have some kind of theistic bent, but belief in supernaturalism isn't necessary to practice magic.

However for those (like me) who don't subscribe to supernaturalism it's more about the lineage of the practice as-to-why I still use the word. Historically, what I do and what supernaturalists do are tied together. The mechanisms that lead them to believe that they were healing the sick, changing the weather and bringing both curses and blessings are the same mechanisms that allows the atheistic and naturalist practioner to recondition themselves or others involved. Or to explore their own issues, personality, selves, or reflect. It's a toolbox of practices with roots in several world religions that are effective when you know how to use them, but possibly insanity-inducing if you don't know what your doing.

Think of it as a way of reprogramming. Evolution is step by step, it has no foresight, and so programs like our minds have many weird glitches, as do our bodies. We just take advantage of some of those glitches, and the most powerful practices of old make use of both our body and our mind in conjunction in a ritual and/or magic. For example Kundalini meditation isn't just psychological, there is an actual set of physiological phenomena playing off of what your mind is doing. The 'energy' rising up the spine isn't totally "real" nor totally "imagined", it's a combination of both, which just makes them feed off of each other until the yogi reaches a critical point and it might as well be a totally supernatural experience for as far as their perception tells them. It's when you get to that point that things get really interesting, and the most progress gets done spiritually.

The nueroscientist Sam Harris, although an atheist, practices and writes books on things like meditation and maybe some of what we would call magic (not totally sure, I've not really read a lot of his books, it's on my to-do list though lol), but his reasons are for inner-change and so he doesn't see it as anything else but a natural psychological process.

You can change your life with magic, but you can't fry an egg with it.



I would wager that science can explain parts of the magical experience, although most people are not aware of this, even many scientific laymen and many scientists who are not in field of study that would allow them to 'get it'. For cultural reasons there hasn't been a lot of proper science done on magical and mystical experiences, even if there has been a lot of psedoscientific research in the last century by those trying to "prove" psychic phenomena is true. I would be very interested to see what we might learn if those few who researched these experiences started asking the "right questions", so to speak. But studying inner-experience is a very difficult thing to do. Synesthesia was thought to be a myth for years until people started figuring out a way to reliably test it. I imagine that magical experiences are very similar in that way.



I don't want to start an argument in a DIR, but I'd like to just point out that this idea is still superstition from my worldview as a practitioner myself. In my opinion there just isn't any plausible way that something done in the privacy of your home can have any direct affect on other people who don't know about it. Technically it might affect them in your future actions or disposition towards them, but that's only because the ritual changed you (and anyone else present).

sychological role and purpose of ritual, both spiritual and in our daily lives

Spirituality has nothing to do with my daily life, and ritual doesn't really either unless you count like weddings or funderals.

supernaturalism isn't necessary to practice magic.

I disagree. Taking the supernatural out of magic is like taking the inhalation of air into the lungs out of breathing. Its just a total negation of what that word has been used for in pretty much all definitions and by the religious who used the concept of magic to express things like miracles.

Think of it as a way of reprogramming. Evolution is step by step, it has no foresight, and so programs like our minds have many weird glitches, as do our bodies. We just take advantage of some of those glitches, and the most powerful practices of old make use of both our body and our mind in conjunction in a ritual and/or magic.

But i don't really accept that these practices have any power beyond the natural physiological responses of people. Manipulating standard physiological responses is just normal reality. If anything we should call them physicalists, or realitists, or neuromodulators instead of magicians. These words make more sense because they connect to what they're actually doing rather than having a side implication of theological or supernatural baggage. Magic, you must admit, has an absolute ton of supernatural baggage. I literally can't find a definition of magic online that doesn't incorperate the supernatural somehow.

it might as well be a totally supernatural experience for as far as their perception tells them

That's the point though: as far as their perception tells them. Perceptions are often wrong and often don't reflect an accurate reality. So it may as well just be a good natural experience and they should just take it at face value rather than trying to associate it with some special baggage for no purpose at all.

aybe some of what we would call magic

Sam harris and other scientists would call this neuroscience rather than magic.

 

[crossfire]

In order to understand how magic is understood by the occult communities, LHP or otherwise, you're going to want to start with discarding the erroneous assumption that this language was selected for the purpose of some sort of posturing. Magic has been (and continues to be) a major component of the world's religions. Fundamentally, it is about the universal human need to feel we have some measure of control over our lot in life. With respect to LHP in particular, the practice of magic is frequently an acknowledgement of one's own personal power and coming into that power in a way that is true to oneself (as opposed to conforming to the wishes of some external influence). I know of very few individuals (probably none, to be honest) within the occult communities that regard magic as something that defines known laws of reality. It may be considered inexplicable, perhaps, but none of us are living in LOTR fantasy films here.

Black Magick = the Art of changing or altering the equilibrium of the subjective universe in order to produce a similar or proportionate change in the equilibrium of the objective universe in accordance with the Will.

There is a three-fold process in the practice of Black Magick:

I. Origination - all Magick originates from within the mind. Abstract and subjective thought.

II. Manifestation - the refinement of the Will through Ritual Magic employed by the Magician and to make his/her Will known to the Universe.

III. Crystallization - the realization of the Magicians Will in a definite form within the fabric of the objective universe. Subjective thought, ideas become objective reality.

Here's a paper I composed for my Order regarding this that might be helpful in promoting understanding about this:

Project Hephæstus' Forge:
The Left Hand Path, Wrathful Emotions, and Greater Black Magick

Anger doesn't seem to get any respect.
Many people try to avoid or repress the negative emotions like anger, envy, and jealousy, because they can take over your mind and influence you into negative behavior. However, some people get some sort of satisfaction from these emotions, in spite of the negative influence they have on our minds. Repressing these emotions can lead to extreme behavior when they finally do surface, so repression is not a satisfactory option. Satisfying these emotions as they arise makes you a slave to them with only short term satisfaction and often with long term problems that will have to be cleared up. So is there another way of dealing with the wrathful emotions? Indeed, there is.
One aspect of the Left Hand Path is to examine the more negative aspects of your personality in order to understand them and transform them into something more satisfactory, so let's take a quick look at them to get some understanding, and then apply a bit of reasoning that may lead to a way to transform them.



The wrathful emotions are based upon dislike, and are useful in removing or getting around unsatisfactory obstacles. You can approach obstacles from an intelligent manner and skillfully resolve them, or you can try to use force to smash through them. Anger will give you an adrenaline rush that could be channeled into force, but is there another way to channel this extra energy? Let's examine anger a bit more closely:
When you are angry, the accompanying adrenaline rush not only energizes your body, but it also energizes your mind. Before you became angry, your mind was relatively clear and calm, like a lake or a slow moving stream. However, a myriad of energized emotions screaming for attention can quickly turn the calm waters into a cloudy, boiling rage that is anything but clear. With an energized body and a clouded mind, it would seem that the option of dealing with obstacles by force would be the only way, as it is difficult to go the intelligent route by examining the obstacle when your mind in such a state. Your clouded state of mind is an obstacle to the intelligent route. {Wait a minute--aren't wrathful emotions useful in removing or getting around obstacles? Indeed they are!}



Your first obstacle to deal with is your clouded, boiling raging mind. Direct the energy from the adrenaline rush there first, and remove the clouded state from your mind first. Then you will be able to think clearly enough to take the intelligent route for the external problem. {You apply Greater Black Magick to yourself, first, and then you turn to the objective universe }


Anger is a quick and strong emotion. It can quickly silence the other disturbing emotions within your mind to still the boiling activity impeding your ability to think clearly. Once the mind has been cleared, the rush of energy can then be channeled into mental activity in order to find an intelligent solution to the external problem, instead of resorting to force. You have overcome not just one obstacle, (the external problem,) but two obstacles (counting the obstacle of the clouded mind.) When you realize and appreciate benefits of this, the disturbing emotions will welcome and respect anger, and energy will not need to be expended in silencing these disturbing emotions, as they will be pacified by anger. However, when this point has been reached, anger doesn't seem to resemble what it used to be. It has transformed so much that even the name "anger" doesn't seem to fit anymore.

So, what has this emotion formerly-known-as-anger become? What name would be suitable for this force that can quickly clear the mind, yet super energize it as well? {Wow! It sounds almost magickal, huh?} I have some names for what a thought-pacifying-mind energizing force can be used as a basis for, including:
⦁ Mushin (Zen)
⦁ Samatha (Eastern religions)
⦁ the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Rupa Jhanas (Buddhism)
⦁ Shyine (Tibetan)
⦁ Samadhi (Eastern religions)
⦁ Pure Awareness (Advaita)
⦁ Clearing the Grounds to Alaya (Yogacara)
⦁ The Magickal Trance described in Peter J Carroll's Liber Null (Liber MMM)
⦁ Kensho (Zen)

The only real name that I have come across to describe this transformed anger is Great Mirror Wisdom. (If you know of any other names for it, please let me know.)
Whatever you may call it, it can be the platform/basis for all of the spiritual practices listed above and more, as well as the more down-to-earth tool for dealing with mundane obstacles in everyday life. So, even if you are not spiritually or magically inclined, it is still worthwhile to apply Hephæstus' Forge to your anger and transform it for the clarity of mind and problem-solving ability it gives in everyday matters, as well as liberation from being enslaved to its more base expression.



Free your mind!

© H☿D Herald of The Dawn 2NLE​

 

[Kenaz]

Language doesn't need to be universal. But it should be understood and consistent between the parties communicating if it is to be useful. This can be a sect of the LHP (ala Temple of Set & Adramelek), a single individual, or a culture. No one needs to 'align' or be consistent with another, but they should also not expect others to have the same understanding & definitions.

In sum, it is useful for communication to have consistent language. However, it is not necessary that one is consistent -- only pragmatic.

 

[Adramelek]

Individual truth and understanding is a cornerstone of Setian philosophy, which leads to the Truth of Being. I have been taught and tested through over seven years of Magickal Initiation in what I believe to be the most "prestigious" school of the Black Arts, the Temple of Set. I often use a combination of my own language and that of others I have learned from, which I have taken as a part of my own, because it speaks to me personally. My language is pretty consistent and down to earth, and most here understand what I try to communicate.

For ever in the Black Flame!

 

[ScottySatan]

Language doesn't work to well if everyone just arbitrarily defined words however they want. If no one could agree on language and used whatever words you wished at random, language wouldn't work in the first place. Language has to remain somewhat consistent so that you can convey ideas. It would be ridiculous if people just decided to randomly change words to completely different things. Imagine changing the word "the" to mean dog food. Well, sure i guess you can do that, but that's not a sensible thing to do. And I never said a words definition can never change or have different meanings; i simply find the labeling of those guys as magicians as ridiculous as if you called them LHR jedi, or LHR airbenders, or LHR quantum physicists. The best, most accurate label, would be to call them LHR average joes.

Once my disciples came to me and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

I replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of Hell has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Leviathan: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. "

For I am the magician.

 

[ScottySatan]

Seriously though...

Again, the answer is that my words and the meaning they convey are my responsibility. It makes me feel a little bit warm and fuzzy inside that my word choices make some people mad. It gives me a little bit of power over them.

Magic in particular doesn't need to conform to your little rules. Magic isn't for you, it's for me.

Telling me that I have a straw man argument so you're going to reword it for me just makes me feel...hypocrisy.