Why has the status of women become so important in our age?

[crossfire]

As a followup, consider this scenario. Say we had a large lecture hall full of people, who each speak different languages. There are about 6500 different languages spoken by humans, on the earth, so the lecture hall will have 6500 people in the audience.

What I will do is place a few objects on a table, center stage, and have each person tell me what these objects are. Since we have 6500 different languages there may be thousands of different noises/sound for each object. Verbal language and words are subjective and arbitrary. There is no universal sound for each thing. This is all learned and conditioned.

On the other hand, each person in the audience will see the same things on center stage. This is how they all express there objects in their native tongue. Visual is not learned but is part of a natural universal language, common to all humans. You can place any object in the field of vision and you will know it. This is true of all of us.

This universal nature is why visual is connected to logic and proof. This is independent of verbal language and opinions. Spoken language is more subjective and the various noises and sounds are arbitrary. This makes illusions possible, based on how you define things.

So, how do you relate this to Jesus as being called the Logos, or the Word?

Spoken and written language is important in that it allows one to transfer what they see or saw to others. We cannot easily transfer a visual image but use spoken language as a bridge. But there is a dark side to verbal language; lying, connected to its subjective and arbitrary nature. This is why the bible has the men leading; universal visual before subjective verbal.

I would agree with you that vision is an objective sensory media for perceiving visible light. It is also subjective, as both men and women will see shapes in clouds and such. I would also say that language is also involved in the sensory media: the sensory media involved is that of sensing ideas. Too bad so many people will still overlay their own subjective shapes and ideas on speech--seeing shapes in clouds--so to speak.

 

[Tambourine]

What I find remarkable is how you engage in the very things you criticize me for. I am not a misogynist in the slightest. My wife has never called me such in 34 years.

Right, you're not a misogynist, you simply happen to believe that women having the right to vote, drive cars, or dress the way they like will bring about the downfall of Western civilization. Those are definitely not misogynistic beliefs.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why, after thousands of years of oppression of women, has suddenly, man himself, began to champion her rights of equality? Even in the Bible there are passages forbidding women to openly speak, yet today, women’s rights are at the forefront of human rights battles.

Why this sudden change of heart towards women?

Because people are finally understanding that the Bible elevates and champions women.

For example, the passage you're citing above "women should learn silently, in subjection," is powerful. MEN were to learn silently, subjectively, from rabbis/mentors. Paul is admitting women into full discipleship and instruction!

 

[columbus]

For example, the passage you're citing above "women should learn silently, in subjection," is powerful. MEN were to learn silently, subjectively, from rabbis/mentors. Paul is admitting women into full discipleship and instruction!

Your ability to change the Bible and Christianity to suit yourself is quite astounding.
Tom

 

[BilliardsBall]

Your ability to change the Bible and Christianity to suit yourself is quite astounding.
Tom

I looked up the historical context. You deny that men were to sit at the feet of rabbis and learn in subjection?

 

[columbus]

I looked up the historical context. You deny that men were to sit at the feet of rabbis and learn in subjection?

Yes.
Yes, I definitely deny that was a teaching of Paul or the gospel authors.
Tom

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes.
Yes, I definitely deny that was a teaching of Paul or the gospel authors.
Tom

Huh? All lead rabbis sat while their disciples stood, respectfully. This made Jesus's seated position in the Temple courts at age 12 astounding.

 

[columbus]

Huh? All lead rabbis sat while their disciples stood, respectfully. This made Jesus's seated position in the Temple courts at age 12 astounding.

Show me where the New Testament authors told men to be quiet in temple and ask their spouse for answers when they get home.
Tom

 

[BilliardsBall]

Show me where the New Testament authors told men to be quiet in temple and ask their spouse for answers when they get home.
Tom

What? Huh? Jesus sat in the Temple, at age 12, having the elder rabbis listen to Him, standing, respectfully!

In the ANE, you stood before great teachers in subjection. In Israel, the great teachers sat. Paul is saying women should join men in learning/discipleship. It's quite the opposite of your presentist reading of the verse.

 

[columbus]

What? Huh? Jesus sat in the Temple, at age 12, having the elder rabbis listen to Him, standing, respectfully!

I don't believe that happened.
But that's because I don't have your Faith in fiction told by religious zealots, much less Faith in your presentist interpretation of that fiction.
Tom

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't believe that happened.
But that's because I don't have your Faith in fiction told by religious zealots, much less Faith in your presentist interpretation of that fiction.
Tom

I understand. But Jesus not being in the Temple as a young teacher doesn't change that in the ANE, teachers say, students listened in subjection, so that Paul inviting women to listen in subjection is referring to their advancement in education and discipleship.

You also realize that women cannot even now become Chasidic rabbis, and only VERY recently rabbis in other Jewish sects? Paul asked men to obey women, named women apostles, etc. Jesus had women see Him first in His ministry and resurrection.

 

[columbus]

I understand. But Jesus not being in the Temple as a young teacher doesn't change that in the ANE, teachers say, students listened in subjection, so that Paul inviting women to listen in subjection is referring to their advancement in education and discipleship.

You also realize that women cannot even now become Chasidic rabbis, and only VERY recently rabbis in other Jewish sects? Paul asked men to obey women, named women apostles, etc. Jesus had women see Him first in His ministry and resurrection.

If you can retrofit feminism into the Scripture, why not communism and gay rights?

You are a master at reinterpreting Scripture to fit your secular humanist values.

C'mon!
Reach Higher!
Tom

 

[BilliardsBall]

If you can retrofit feminism into the Scripture, why not communism and gay rights?

You are a master at reinterpreting Scripture to fit your secular humanist values.

C'mon!
Reach Higher!
Tom

Communism and gay rights ARE in the scriptures. You can read higher!

 

[Tambourine]

If you can retrofit feminism into the Scripture, why not communism and gay rights?

You are a master at reinterpreting Scripture to fit your secular humanist values.

And why shouldn't they? Scripture is there to be interpreted.

If bigots can read into it what they want to believe, why shouldn't progressives be able to do the same?

 

[columbus]

Communism and gay rights ARE in the scriptures. You can read higher!

Um...
Wut?

If they're in the Scriptures, why do religious folks attack gays and communists so often? Perhaps Jesus just isn't very good at communicating?

Tom

 

[Valjean]

Um...
Wut?

If they're in the Scriptures, why do religious folks attack gays and communists so often? Perhaps Jesus just isn't very good at communicating?

Tom

Jesus' posse were socialists, weren't they? Common purse, sharing everything and all?
And 13 guys all living together, no women.... Makes you wonder.

 

[Deidre]

The better question is why did it take so long for women to be treated fairly and equal to men? (in the West) In other parts of the world, women are still treated poorly and as second class citizens.

 

[Valjean]

The better question is why did it take so long for women to be treated fairly and equal to men? (in the West) In other parts of the world, women are still treated poorly and as second class citizens.

If not virtual livestock....

 

[Deidre]

If not virtual livestock....

Yes

 

[Tambourine]

The better question is why did it take so long for women to be treated fairly and equal to men? (in the West) In other parts of the world, women are still treated poorly and as second class citizens.

They are still treated fairly poorly in many areas of "the West", too. You just need to look at this forum to encounter people who think it is appropriate to denigrate women they do not know as "whores" or worse.

That's certainly a far cry from just a hundred years ago, when it was still perfectly legal for a man to beat or rape his wife, but we still have a lot to improve on.