Why I am a good proof that there is a God

[KWED]

My wife said that a demon affected her physically but I just assumed she imagined it. Now that I have experienced it for myself my belief has changed.

Sounds like a fun household.

 

[Jainarayan]

I believe the book of Job says something about this. God allowed the devil to plague Job but He did not allow him to kill Job.

I believe He has allowed that but that does not make it right. He also allows the righteous who are more in keeping with His name to be killed.

I doubt demons have free will. God can grant free will to whom He wishes but He is less motivated to grant boons to an enemy. Jesus cast out demons and they did not have much choice in the matter.

So then God is not omnibenevolent. He allows his devotees to suffer for some purpose of his. That sounds selfish. It’s akin to human testing on animals.

I can also kick an unruly guest out of my house. They don’t have any choice in the matter.

 

[Jainarayan]

I may have asked this way back in the thread, but echoing another thread, why is it important to prove God’s existence? Isn’t one’s own belief and faith enough?

Last night on an episode of The UnXplained Dr. Robert Cargill, an archaeologist specializing in Middle Eastern and Biblical history and a theist even said that people trying to find the Ark of the Covenant is an attempt to validate their beliefs and prove the existence of God. Why? Proving God to me, for example, so I can follow him? I know Joe Biden exists, I believe in his existence, but I have no use for him. So, proving God’s existence to me will have no effect.

 

[Muffled]

The model is objectively testable and falsifiable. Entirely unlike your claims for your god.


What does it do in the environment? You've only made claims about what it does in your mind. How is this god objectively testable and falsifiable?

The model is objectively testable and falsifiable. Entirely unlike your claims for your god.


What does it do in the environment? You've only made claims about what it does in your mind. How is this god objectively testable and falsifiable?

I believe it is not so easy. Not everyone has a cyclotron in their pocket. In comparison it is much easier to hear God than to detect a quark.

I believe my mind is part of the environment. However I testify that I had Covid-19 in March of 2020. I was having a great deal of trouble breathing and thought I was going to die. I prayed for God to remove it and the next day it was completely gone.

 

[Muffled]

I may have asked this way back in the thread, but echoing another thread, why is it important to prove God’s existence? Isn’t one’s own belief and faith enough?

Last night on an episode of The UnXplained Dr. Robert Cargill, an archaeologist specializing in Middle Eastern and Biblical history and a theist even said that people trying to find the Ark of the Covenant is an attempt to validate their beliefs and prove the existence of God. Why? Proving God to me, for example, so I can follow him? I know Joe Biden exists, I believe in his existence, but I have no use for him. So, proving God’s existence to me will have no effect.

I believe this is the answer:

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

 

[Jainarayan]

I believe this is the answer:

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

That’s right... faith. If you believe you believe, if you need proof to believe then your faith is not all that strong, if not non-existent. There should be no need for proof.

 

[Muffled]

So then God is not omnibenevolent. He allows his devotees to suffer for some purpose of his. That sounds selfish. It’s akin to human testing on animals.

I can also kick an unruly guest out of my house. They don’t have any choice in the matter.

I believe you mean your idea of good as opposed to His. Of course that leads to an impossible impasse: the murderer considers it good to murder a person but the person being murdered considers it good not to be murdered.
With God there is only one rule of goodness in this regard: "Thou shalt not murder."

I believe the purpose was to exalt Job and reveal to the devil that he can't win in the end.

I believe that was more for us than Him. We are the ones who bear evil. It is encouraging to know that we win against evil in the end.

 

[ratiocinator]

I believe it is not so easy. Not everyone has a cyclotron in their pocket.

Which doesn't change the principle. The results of science are public and are checkable by other teams.

In comparison it is much easier to hear God than to detect a quark.

Even if we assume for a moment that there is a god, then the endless different religions, sects, cults, and denominations, would tend to suggest otherwise.

I believe my mind is part of the environment.

I'm sure it is, but you are trying to make claims about objective things outside of it based on nothing but what you subjectively experience inside it.

However I testify that I had Covid-19 in March of 2020. I was having a great deal of trouble breathing and thought I was going to die. I prayed for God to remove it and the next day it was completely gone.

So what happened to all the people who've prayed, and/or have been prayed for, who died anyway? Every time any attempt to measure the effects of prayer has been made, it turns out to be no better than not praying.

 

[Jainarayan]

I believe you mean your idea of good as opposed to His. Of course that leads to an impossible impasse: the murderer considers it good to murder a person but the person being murdered considers it good not to be murdered.
With God there is only one rule of goodness in this regard: "Thou shalt not murder."

I believe the purpose was to exalt Job and reveal to the devil that he can't win in the end.

I believe that was more for us than Him. We are the ones who bear evil. It is encouraging to know that we win against evil in the end.

It’s nothing to do with my idea of good and evil. That’s rationalizing his perpetrating harm on his creation. Harm is harm. It’s a double standard. If God is all good and all knowing he would know how Job felt. If God didn’t know then he’s not omniscient either. Personally it’s not God I have a problem with but the way he’s portrayed and used by human writers to promote their ideas of good and evil. God has been the target of a smear campaign, perhaps unintentionally, but the damage is done to his image. Now comes the justifications… there’s no way otherwise to wiggle out of it.

 

[Muffled]

ok, but can you demonstrate anything beyond unevidenced anecdote that a deity has any effect on the universe? Is the claim falsifiable, testable, and does it have explanatory power beyond the assertion that a deity has done something?

I believe you are asking for the impossible when you seek a test. However remember this if I flick a switch and the light comes on I know I have power but if I flick the switch and the light does not come on it does not mean I don't have power; it might simply mean the bulb is burned out and is not responding to the power or it may mean the connection is lost due to a broken wire. The way a person tests God is to receive Him as Lord and Savior and really mean it. An unbeliever will always fail the test {not God} because he will never mean it.

I believe that is true of any testimony. A person like you can falsely testify that what I said never happened even though you have no experience of what I said.

 

[Muffled]

Sadly since all you have offered is an unevidenced claim, I cannot believe you.

I believe what you call claims are the evidence. I believe you are calling me a liar and I am not.
2Pet 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

 

[Muffled]

It’s nothing to do with my idea of good and evil. That’s rationalizing his perpetrating harm on his creation. Harm is harm. It’s a double standard. If God is all good and all knowing he would know how Job felt. If God didn’t know then he’s not omniscient either. Personally it’s not God I have a problem with but the way he’s portrayed and used by human writers to promote their ideas of good and evil. God has been the target of a smear campaign, perhaps unintentionally, but the damage is done to his image. Now comes the justifications… there’s no way otherwise to wiggle out of it.

I believe you are trying to say God has no empathy for Job but the truth is that Jesus, God in the flesh, suffered by flagellation and crucifixion for us. That is empathy.

 

[Sheldon]

I believe what you call claims are the evidence.

I don't believe you, and again you are presenting a claim, without evidence.

I believe you are calling me a liar and I am not.

Another bare claim, without any context.

2Pet 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Was there some point in that quote/ Only quoting scripture to an atheist is like giving a vegetarian for beef stroganoff, it's pretty much useless to them.

 

[Sheldon]

I believe you are trying to say God has no empathy for Job but the truth is that Jesus, God in the flesh, suffered by flagellation and crucifixion for us. That is empathy.

It's appalling, the idea of vicarious redemption is repugnant enough, but the idea of a blood sacrifice for atonement is utterly repellent.

Also the Job myth depicts at best a deity that was entirely ambivalent about Job's suffering, and that of family. The myth depicts a deity more concerned with winning a bet.

 

[Muffled]

Could you explain what you think the objective difference is, or is it just a bare subjective opinion?

I believe Wheel of Time is a fictional book series and now a tv series because I have bought the books in the fantsy section of the store. BTW I buy my Bible in the non-fiction area of the store.

The Eye of the World is a high fantasy novel by American writer Robert Jordan. - Wikipedia
And the authors name listed is not his real name it is a pen name.

Bible: It appears in the form of an anthology, a compilation of texts of a variety of forms that are all linked by the belief that they are collectively revelations of God. Wikipedia

 

[Muffled]

Sounds like a fun household.

I believe you don't know the half of it. Both my wife and I were not saved when we married. I received Jesus as Lord and Savior one year later and my wife some time in the 80's. In between there was a great deal of conflict over religion.

 

[Sheldon]

I believe Wheel of Time is a fictional book series and now a tv series because I have bought the books in the fantsy section of the store. BTW I buy my Bible in the non-fiction area of the store.

That isn't objective evidence, and if the bible isn't placed under the heading religions it sounds like a poorly organised store to me.

Bible: It appears in the form of an anthology, a compilation of texts of a variety of forms that are all linked by the belief that they are collectively revelations of God. Wikipedia

So a subjective belief then, and not objective evidence.

 

[Muffled]

So then God is not omnibenevolent. He allows his devotees to suffer for some purpose of his. That sounds selfish. It’s akin to human testing on animals.

I can also kick an unruly guest out of my house. They don’t have any choice in the matter.

God is omnibenevolent. It was not God who caused the suffering but it was Satan who as Jesus said desires to kill steal and destroy.

I believe demons don't leave so easily. I had to tell the latest one to get out in the Name of Jesus twice before it left. If a person does not have faith in Jesus the chances of getting rid of a demon are slim.

 

[Muffled]

That’s right... faith. If you believe you believe, if you need proof to believe then your faith is not all that strong, if not non-existent. There should be no need for proof.

I believe you are putting the cart before the horse. I can't put any faith in something I don't believe in.

So at age 13 I believed God would answer me. So by faith I waited for an answer. The proof that my belief and faith were not in vain was when God answered me.

 

[Jainarayan]

I believe you are trying to say God has no empathy for Job but the truth is that Jesus, God in the flesh, suffered by flagellation and crucifixion for us. That is empathy.

That has nothing to do with Job.