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Why I Am Not an Anti-Theist

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Some people have asked me whether I'm an anti-theist due to my anti-religious stance. I have explained on several occasions that being anti-religious doesn't necessitate being anti-theistic. Personally, I'm definitely anti-religious, but I'm not anti-theistic for more than one reason.

Theism, in and of itself, doesn't have to be detrimental to the well-being of conscious creatures. While some people justify harmful actions by saying that their deity or deities ordered them to act a certain way, by no means does theism have to be tied with dogma. Religion attaches these strings to theism and burdens it with different teachings and dogma, but theism in its purest sense has nothing to do with dogma. In fact, theism can be a motivator for benevolence just as much as it can be a motivator for harmful actions. It is religion that tips the scales in favor of harmful commandments through dogma and arbitrary doctrines.

While dogma is typically tied with theism due to its theistic underpinnings in most religions, theism itself is merely the position that a deity or deities exist. That in and of itself lacks any implications of dogma, and unless one lets their theism inspire them toward supporting harmful practices, theism is harmless.

Another reason I'm not anti-theistic is that I have had what some people would label a "mystical experience." While I believe that it wasn't a supernatural occurrence at all, nor that its origin was supernatural, I can see how similar experiences can lead people to theism, and I actually sympathize with some versions of theism for this reason. I see no logical reason to believe that theism is the most logical conclusion to be arrived at after having such an experience, but personal experience transcends logic. The difference between theism and religious dogma is that theism doesn't necessarily have to be communicated to other people; it can be a strictly personal belief based on completely personal experiences. The Pagan who feels a connection to nature is a far cry from the Mormon who goes from door to door proselytizing and spreading religious dogma, and the Hindu who practices meditation to feel more connection to what they believe to be divine is worlds apart from the Jehovah's Witness who tries to spread the belief that premarital sex is a sin or that homosexuality upsets their deity.

Theism, even though I consider it to be an irrational position from a purely logical standpoint, doesn't have to inspire malevolence. It can inspire a sense of community, a sense of wonder and awe, in people who adhere to it. It can also inspire feelings of inner peace and positive interactions with one's surroundings. It doesn't have to adopt the stereotypical image that some people have of it, where it necessarily leads to extremism and intrusion on other people's lives.

And this is why I'm not an anti-theist.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So you see dogma as more attached to religion than to theism?

I will need some time to consider that. I feel the opposite to be true.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I appreciate how you are differentiated this and it the basis why I find people saying they are "anti-theist" as really not a very rational position to take at all. Theism does not mean someone is religiously dogmatic necessarily. It is simply a way to relate to Ultimate reality in a 2nd person perspective way, as the personal other, relationally. There are many positive benefits to this. I agree that the mystic tends to not be dogmatic and differs from the merely religious this way. The differentiation really is one thing: experience. Religion is about belief. Mysticism is about experience. Theism as part of mystical experience can be quite powerful and beautiful and leads to anything but religious dogma, some misguided idea about being right. Experience is what makes the difference.
 

Popcorn

What is it?
What is "theism"? Is that anything that isn't atheism? Seems to me that both of them, the theism and the atheism, are conditions of a philosophical nature which have no real absolute meanings yet are presented as a binary. Such a study of religion(s) may be counterintuitive, that people know by experiences. For example, I see these words "new atheist", "militant atheist", "anti-theist", and appears to be some manner of differentiation. Are there sects or denominations of non-belief? Secularism, humanism, universalism? Are there any atheists who are directly positive about who and what they are, or do all atheists define themselves by having their sense identities constructed by some remote or apostate form of other religions? Would it be fair to say that many are simply anti-Christian, for example? That being the case, is it still not the Christians with the power to define them from afar off? That would explain a lot why there seems to be so many atheists, or anti-theists, hellbent on annoying the rest of us, I suppose. Attempting to do society a favor by mocking us and insulting us over the wires, as if somehow we are owners and operators of their world, but are they really truly oppressed? No. As far as I know it's been a long, long time since we've bound any to the iron maiden or given them to the rack, if we ever truly did, they just can't handle criticism very well when we're as skeptical of their beliefs as they are of ours. At least, that is from the perspective of this Christian, I don't necessarily speak for all Christians.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So you see dogma as more attached to religion than to theism?

I will need some time to consider that. I feel the opposite to be true.

Seems to me dogma is attached to neither. It's a separate quality entirely, considering there exist dogmatic and non-dogmatic (a)theisms and (ir)religions.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
What is "theism"? Is that anything that isn't atheism? Seems to me that both of them, the theism and the atheism, are conditions of a philosophical nature which have no real absolute meanings yet are presented as a binary. Such a study of religion(s) may be counterintuitive, that people know by experiences. For example, I see these words "new atheist", "militant atheist", "anti-theist", and appears to be some manner of differentiation. Are there sects or denominations of non-belief? Secularism, humanism, universalism? Are there any atheists who are directly positive about who and what they are, or do all atheists define themselves by having their sense identities constructed by some remote or apostate form of other religions? Would it be fair to say that many are simply anti-Christian, for example? That being the case, is it still not the Christians with the power to define them from afar off? That would explain a lot why there seems to be so many atheists, or anti-theists, hellbent on annoying the rest of us, I suppose. Attempting to do society a favor by mocking us and insulting us over the wires, as if somehow we are owners and operators of their world, but are they really truly oppressed? No. As far as I know it's been a long, long time since we've bound any to the iron maiden or given them to the rack, if we ever truly did, they just can't handle criticism very well when we're as skeptical of their beliefs as they are of ours. At least, that is from the perspective of this Christian, I don't necessarily speak for all Christians.

When polls don't show that most Americans, for example, trust atheists and rapists similarly, I will believe you that atheists are no longer oppressed.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Seems to me dogma is attached to neither. It's a separate quality entirely, considering there exist dogmatic and non-dogmatic (a)theisms and (ir)religions.

Studying a text like the Qur'an or the Old Testament seems to me to point out that dogma is indeed attached to religion, or at least some strains of religion.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
My reasoning is simpler. I am not anti theist because it is foolish to generalise so far. Many theists I meet I think are wonderful.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I don't have a belief in a god, or religion, but that doesn't make me anti, or against them, I just feel sorry for most of them.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Studying a text like the Qur'an or the Old Testament seems to me to point out that dogma is indeed attached to religion, or at least some strains of religion.

It is. It's also entirely absent in many religions, which is why I don't understand why one would fault religion. It's too heterogenous of a category, as is theism (or irreligion and atheism for that matter). One has to get more specific than that for the observations to have merit.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
It is. It's also entirely absent in many religions, which is why I don't understand why one would fault religion for anything. It's too heterogenous of a category, as is theism (or irreligion and atheism for that matter).
Dogma is a defining characteristic of religion. It is one of the properties that defines religion.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Dogma is a defining characteristic of religion. It is one of the properties that defines religion.

No, it isn't. It's a characteristic of some religions. Only some religions have principles laid down by an authority that are regarded as incontrovertibly true. Partly because only some religions have established authorities, and only some religions encourage or enforce rigid thinking. There are plenty of religions that lack established authorities and lack forces that encourage or enforce rigid thinking.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
No, it isn't. It's a characteristic of some religions. Only some religions have principles laid down by an authority that are regarded as incontrovertibly true. Partly because only some religions have established authorities, and only some religions encourage or enforce rigid thinking. There are plenty of religions that lack established authorities and lack forces that encourage or enforce rigid thinking.
Do you have an example of a significant religion of that kind please?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you have an example of a significant religion of that kind please?

Er... it kind of describes most religions? Most Paganisms, contemporary or otherwise, but especially contemporary. New religious movements, such as Unitarian Universalism and various LHP religions. Most Eastern religions. Many forms of Christianity, such as non-denominational and progressive.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Seems to me dogma is attached to neither. It's a separate quality entirely, considering there exist dogmatic and non-dogmatic (a)theisms and (ir)religions.

I beg to differ.

Studying a text like the Qur'an or the Old Testament seems to me to point out that dogma is indeed attached to religion, or at least some strains of religion.

Dogma is necessary for people to decide to defy their own reason and moral judgement in order to "trust god".

Dogma is a defining characteristic of religion. It is one of the properties that defines religion.

I suppose it does... to anti-religionists. I don't think it is a very useful definition, though.

My reasoning is simpler. I am not anti theist because it is foolish to generalise so far. Many theists I meet I think are wonderful.
Fair enough, but what do you think of theism (as opposed to theists)?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I beg to differ.

So which of these do you not believe in?

  1. Non-dogmatic theism
  2. Non-dogmatic atheism
  3. Non-dogmatic religion
  4. Non-dogmatic irreligion
  5. Dogmatic theism
  6. Dogmatic atheism
  7. Dogmatic religion
  8. Dogmatic irreligion

Seems to me they all exist, but which ones you you believe do not exist?

(for reference, "dogma" is being understood as "a principle or set of principles laid down as incontrovertibly true by an authority" and basically describes black-and-white thinking patterns)
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I beg to differ.



Dogma is necessary for people to decide to defy their own reason and moral judgement in order to "trust god".



I suppose it does... to anti-religionists. I don't think it is a very useful definition, though.


Fair enough, but what do you think of theism (as opposed to theists)?
Well I sure don't hate it.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Er... it kind of describes most religions? Most Paganisms, contemporary or otherwise, but especially contemporary. New religious movements, such as Unitarian Universalism and various LHP religions. Most Eastern religions. Many forms of Christianity, such as non-denominational and progressive.
THEISMS were the context. An example of a theistic religion please. A specific one.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It makes more sense to consider how much of an impact those categories make than just whether they exist in practice, IMO.

So let's see:

  1. Non-dogmatic theism - does exist, quite fortunately. It is possibly even more common (but apparently not more influential) than dogmatic theism.
  2. Non-dogmatic atheism - exists, obviously. Has little consequence, but does exist.
  3. Non-dogmatic religion - fortunately, does exist and is not altogether very rare.
  4. Non-dogmatic irreligion - I'm not sure what this would be. If it is anything at all, seeing how it is the intersection of two absences.
  5. Dogmatic theism - exists and is a plague.
  6. Dogmatic atheism - I suppose it exists in the most trivial sense, as an irrational refusal to even consider the possibility of the existence of some deity. But it is just about as harmless as anything can possibly be.
  7. Dogmatic religion - exists and is very harmful.
  8. Dogmatic irreligion - a bit too vague for me to picture, let alone opine about. I just don't know what you mean by that.
 
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