Why I Am Not an Anti-Theist

[icehorse]

Zooming out...

Reading through this thread reminds me that it's not the first time I've wished for an RF-specific glossary. Of course words like "religion" would have multiple definitions, but they could be numbered, e.g. religion.v42 could be:

As I said, worshipping a higher authority and dogma are two defining characteristics of religion.

I for one am a fan of conversations that survive semantic noise to get down into deep topics. Unfortunately most of these discussions never make it past the semantic noise state

 

[Bunyip]

So you're saying that somebody who believes in God, but believes that God is fundamentally impersonal or transpersonal is atheist?

Correct. Atheism responds to THEISM, not deism, pantheism and so on.
An atheist is not necessarily adeist, apantheist.

Think of it this way; Do you as a Hindu believe in Yahweh?
No right? So you are an atheist in relation to Yahweh.

 

[Bunyip]

Zooming out...

Reading through this thread reminds me that it's not the first time I've wished for an RF-specific glossary. Of course words like "religion" would have multiple definitions, but they could be numbered, e.g. religion.v42 could be:

I for one am a fan of conversations that survive semantic noise to get down into deep topics. Unfortunately most of these discussions never make it past the semantic noise state

I think because that 'semantic noise' serves to obfuscate the really interesting questions. It is a deflection, a diversion.

It doesn't establish a defence, it just shields fragile beliefs from real engagement.

 

[sun rise]

Zooming out...

Reading through this thread reminds me that it's not the first time I've wished for an RF-specific glossary. Of course words like "religion" would have multiple definitions, but they could be numbered, e.g. religion.v42 could be:

I for one am a fan of conversations that survive semantic noise to get down into deep topics. Unfortunately most of these discussions never make it past the semantic noise state

I think there are some reasons for this. One is that people love to express their opinions rather than ask questions. Another is the "blind men and the elephant" phenomenon where people argue about different frames-of-references - what you've correctly noted can often be reduced to a question of definition.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sure, but how often are debates about atheism/theism referring to Gardnerian Wicca, Buddism or Hinduism?

How often do those debates involve people who know what they are talking about on both sides?

Not too often, IMO.

Wouldn't it just be easier to say that this is the conception of god you wish to discuss, rather than try to stretch the definition of anti-theism?

Easier? Perhaps. But by that point one would need to establish that the first is also somehow more useful or more defensable than the second. Or, for that matter, that the second is happening or being proposed. How can you tell that there is "stretching" of anti-theism happening?

Do you feel up to the task?

 

[Bunyip]

How often do those debates involve people who know what they are talking about on both sides?

Not too often, IMO.



Easier? Perhaps. But by that point one would need to establish that the first is also somehow more useful or more defensable than the second. Or, for that matter, that the second is happening or being proposed. How can you tell that there is "stretching" of anti-theism happening?

Do you feel up to the task?

Sure. Go right ahead.

 

[Kirran]

Correct. Atheism responds to THEISM, not deism, pantheism and so on.
An atheist is not necessarily adeist, apantheist.

Think of it this way; Do you as a Hindu believe in Yahweh?
No right? So you are an atheist in relation to Yahweh.

Theism is believing in a God or gods, as I see it generally used, and as I use it. I would count a deist and a pantheist as theists.

I'm not an atheist in relation to Yahweh. This is like saying I don't have any kettles in relation to a kettle I do not have. I just don't have that kettle. Doesn't make me any kind of person-who-does-not-have-kettles.

 

[Bunyip]

Theism is believing in a God or gods, as I see it generally used, and as I use it. I would count a deist and a pantheist as theists.

I'm not an atheist in relation to Yahweh. This is like saying I don't have any kettles in relation to a kettle I do not have. I just don't have that kettle. Doesn't make me any kind of person-who-does-not-have-kettles.

What? Can you please re-write that?
Do you believe Yahweh exists? Yes or No. If no, you are atheist in relation to Yahweh.

 

[Kirran]

What? Can you please re-write that?
Do you believe Yahweh exists? Yes or No. If no, you are atheist in relation to Yahweh.

I don't believe in Yahweh. But I don't think it makes sense to say I am an atheist in relation to a particular deity. Because an atheist doesn't believe in deities full stop. My laboured analogy was trying to demonstrate that.

 

[Bunyip]

I don't believe in Yahweh. But I don't think it makes sense to say I am an atheist in relation to a particular deity. Because an atheist doesn't believe in deities full stop. My laboured analogy was trying to demonstrate that.

Atheism only has meaning in relation to a specific God claim. You do not believe in Yahweh, and are therefore atheist in relation to Yahweh. Seems bery simple to me.
A person who believes in particular theistic god is theist, a person who does not believe in the God being discussed is atheist.

 

[Kirran]

Atheism only has meaning in relation to a specific God claim. You do not believe in Yahweh, and are therefore atheist in relation to Yahweh. Seems bery simple to me.
A person who believes in particular theistic god is theist, a person who does not believe in the God being discussed is atheist.

I do not own the White House. Therefore I have no houses in relation to the White House. I don't think that is correct. I have houses, just not the White House.

 

[Bunyip]

I do not own the White House. Therefore I have no houses in relation to the White House. I don't think that is correct. I have houses, just not the White House.

Great. Now put that into context. The White House is the house in question - do you have it?
No right? Simple.
You do not own the White House, and so are a White house non-owner. Right?

I am atheist in relation to Yahweh. There are conceptions of god I do not even know about - and so have no position in regard to them.
I do not believe in Yahweh - hence I am atheist towards Yahweh. So are you.

 

[Kirran]

Great. Now put that into context. The White House is the house in question - do you have it?
No right? Simple.
You do not own the White House, and so are a White house non-owner. Right?

I am atheist in relation to Yahweh. There are conceptions of god I do not even know about - and so have no position in regard to them.
I do not believe in Yahweh - hence I am atheist towards Yahweh. So are you.

But atheist is a broad term denoting lack of belief in any deity. I don't not believe in any deity in relation to a particular deity.

 

[Bunyip]

But atheist is a broad term denoting lack of belief in any deity. I don't not believe in any deity in relation to a particular deity.

No. Atheist is a very specific term, not a broad one.

Your sentence; I don't not believe in any deity in relation to a particular deity.

Could you re-phrase that please. Surely belief in a deity would be a specific belief? Nobody just believes in gods in general do they?

 

[Kirran]

No. Atheist is a very specific term, not a broad one.

Your sentence; I don't not believe in any deity in relation to a particular deity.

Could you re-phrase that please. Surely belief in a deity would be a specific belief? Nobody just believes in gods in general do they?

Atheism, being a lack of belief, is broad. That phrase I put doesn't make much sense, because it's a transcription of 'atheist in relation to X'.

By believing in any gods, I am a theist, not an atheist.

 

[Bunyip]

Atheism, being a lack of belief, is broad.

No, it is specific to the God being discussed. Not sure what is throwing you there.

That phrase I put doesn't make much sense, because it's a transcription of 'atheist in relation to X'.

By believing in any gods, I am a theist, not an atheist.

Is your belief in Gods just some general acceptance of all conceptions of god?
Or do you believe in a specific god?

Atheism is as specific a claim as is theism.

 

[Kirran]

No, it is specific to the God being discussed. Not sure what is throwing you there.
Is your belief in Gods just some general acceptance of all conceptions of god?
Or do you believe in a specific god?

Atheism is as specific a claim as is theism.

I think we just have different conceptions ofv the word. We're basically talking past each other at this point

Shall we desist?

 

[Bunyip]

I think we just have different conceptions ofv the word. We're basically talking past each other at this point

Shall we desist?

I just don't understand why you would think that atheism is a general claim, when theism (which atheism responds to) is of course a very specific claim. How does that make sense to you?

I am atheist only in relation to specific Gods. How you imagine atheism to be a kind of general disbelief I honestly do not understand.

 

[Kirran]

I just don't understand why you would think that atheism is a general claim, when theism (which atheism responds to) is of course a very specific claim. How does that make sense to you?

I am atheist only in relation to specific Gods. How you imagine atheism to be a kind of general disbelief I honestly do not understand.

OK, last time. Anybody who believes in any deity or deities whatsoever is a theist. If somebody believes in Ahura Mazda, but not Visnu or Yahweh, they're still a theist. If a person believes in none at all, then they are an atheist. This is how I see it.

 

[Bunyip]

OK, last time. Anybody who believes in any deity or deities whatsoever is a theist. If somebody believes in Ahura Mazda, but not Visnu or Yahweh, they're still a theist. If a person believes in none at all, then they are an atheist. This is how I see it.

So you just sort of invent your own definition, and then stick to it? Ok.

FYI, not all deities are theistic.