WHY I BELIEVE THAT CHRIST IS GOD

[firedragon]

Yes, this is why I believe that Jesus was "slain from the foundation of the world" That is to mean that God already planned to die for love since the beginning and everything is really founded on this event. All things God made are really founded on the idea that He would die for love.

You know your post made me curious. When you say God do you mean God the father?

 

[74x12]

You know your post made me curious. When you say God do you mean God the father?

Yes, God is just one. I don't believe in the trinity.

 

[Deeje]

I definitely understand the pleading for forgiveness, it's only proper to ask God or the universe or fate to forgive you of your wrongdoings if you have done something truly awful. It's not necessary to ask, God/universe/fate should already forgive you - it knows the nature of your being, it designed every aspect of you including your flaws and it also designed the moment in time where you desired to seek forgiveness.

That statement is rather contradictory, don't you think?

If we have a moral compass, then our Creator designed us to feel guilt and shame when we have done something wrong. If we act on those feelings then God has an indication of our remorse....something to forgive. It takes humility to ask for forgiveness. Our confession and our rightly asking God to forgive us, demonstrates a contrite heart and hopefully a desire not to sin in the same way again.

But the God part shouldn't be mandatory in forgiveness. If a man feels guilty for his or her sins then why isn't that enough?

Guilt is not the same as repentance. Guilt can just be a feeling.....repentance needs action.

It seems rather pointless to me that He would create this world as a lesson of some sort and let it play out only until the end where He intervenes. Why not just let the lesson play out in its entirety?

God is allowing all of us to be caught in the act of being ourselves. Because we have free will, our choices and our actions demonstrate what kind of person we are. Since God is taking applications for citizenship in his Kingdom, we are all then either qualifying or disqualifying ourselves.He will not accept disobedient ones or those who cannot follow instructions.....no organization can operate that way.

If God does not intervene in the near future, then the human race will end up wiping out all life on this Earth. Only in the last 100 years has man had the ability to extinguish all life on this planet. One rogue dictator could end it all with the press of a button. Do you trust that it can never happen?

Of course we'll always fall back on committing bad actions, it's inevitable - human desires are very powerful, but to feel remorse for those actions and to try to be good should suffice for salvation/redemption/moksha/nirvana, whatever your belief is. I don't see how belief comes into play.

Humans were not created with flaws....we attained those by separating ourselves from God and thinking that we didn't need him to guide us in life. He is allowing us to see the foolishness of that idea.

 

[Colt]

The Son of God is a part of God.

 

[mmarco]

No, you only had empty claims that amounted to "I don't know, therefore God". There were no contradictions. If you think there was one pick your best contradiction and post it again.

You are using straw man and are misrepresenting my argument. I have never said anything like "I don't know, therefore God", but I rationally anaòlyse our scientific knowledges. In fact, our scientific knowledges show that all biological/chemical/cerebral processes are reducible to the laws of physics, while cpnsciousness is irriducible to the laws of physics, which is sufficient to prove that consciousness is irriducible to cerebral processes and that cerebral processes cannot be identified as the cause of consciousness. The basic assumption of materialism (which identifies cerebral processes as the origin of consciousness) is then contradicted by this fundamental scientific result, i.e. the irriducibility of consciousness to cerebral processes. This result represents the most strong argument in favour of the existence of the soul, defined as the unphysical and trascendent principle necessary for the existence of our consciousness. Since our soul cannot have a physical origin, it can only be created directly by God. The existence of God is a necessary condition for the existence of our soul, as well as for the existence of us as conscious beings.

 

[mmarco]

Consciousness is covered in the field of neuroscience; physics is a different field entirely. That might be why "consciousness is irribucible to the law of physics." You're looking in the wrong place.

You seem not to understand that all what occurs inside a brain consist only in successions of elementary physical processes, which is sufficient to prove that the fact that consciousness is irriducible to the laws of physics implies that consciousness is irriducible to cerebral processes and that the basic assumption of materialism (which identifies cerebral processes as the origin of consciousness) is then contradicted by modern science.
Neuroscience does not provide any explanation for the existence of consciousness; it simply describes the interaction between consciousness and cerebral processes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are using straw man and are misrepresenting my argument. I have never said anything like "I don't know, therefore God", but I rationally anaòlyse our scientific knowledges. In fact, our scientific knowledges show that all biological/chemical/cerebral processes are reducible to the laws of physics, while cpnsciousness is irriducible to the laws of physics, which is sufficient to prove that consciousness is irriducible to cerebral processes and that cerebral processes cannot be identified as the cause of consciousness. The basic assumption of materialism (which identifies cerebral processes as the origin of consciousness) is then contradicted by this fundamental scientific result, i.e. the irriducibility of consciousness to cerebral processes. This result represents the most strong argument in favour of the existence of the soul, defined as the unphysical and trascendent principle necessary for the existence of our consciousness. Since our soul cannot have a physical origin, it can only be created directly by God. The existence of God is a necessary condition for the existence of our soul, as well as for the existence of us as conscious beings.

Sorry,but your claim of irreducibility is not supported by the evidence. It is an unjustified conclusion. That does make your argument an argument from ignorance. No strawman.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, God is just one. I don't believe in the trinity.

Oh okay.

In that case your belief is that Jesus was God himself, I mean not a person of the trinity but one God, who himself came down. Is that your belief?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You seem not to understand that all what occurs inside a brain consist only in successions of elementary physical processes, which is sufficient to prove that the fact that consciousness is irriducible to the laws of physics implies that consciousness is irriducible to cerebral processes and that the basic assumption of materialism (which identifies cerebral processes as the origin of consciousness) is then contradicted by modern science.
Neuroscience does not provide any explanation for the existence of consciousness; it simply describes the interaction between consciousness and cerebral processes.

I am sorry but you are now merely reiterating an unjustified claim. At best you can only say that consciousness is not fully understood. That does not make it irreducible.

 

[mmarco]

It's great what Jesus is said to have done for us and all, but I feel like the Christian God is just as spiteful as any man. True divine love sees the most terrible human you can imagine, reflecting at all of the evil things he has done in his life, and He puts his hand on the man's shoulder and says with a smile, "I understand."

Whereas the Christian God may do that (which I appreciate Christianity for: the recognition that sin is a part of man's nature) but first you have to accept Christ through a matter of faith. I don't understand how the Christian idea of God can be considered loving when He is not impartial to that. Real divine love would be impartial to anything let alone if someone guessed the secrets of the universe's metaphysics correctly.

I am not sure to understand what you mean with "impartian" Anyway, let me explain why we have to accept Christ.
I believe that God loves us infinitely, and He desires to lead each of us to the true life and true happiness, a condition existing only in communion with God. But God cannot tolerate evil and sin, because they are incompatible with His good and holy nature. God cannot simply forgive us if we keep sin and evil within us. A deep interior change is necessary for all of us to reach the eternal happiness; we must be sanctified and purified from all our evil and sinful desires. God has the power to change us but He wants to do that with our consent. In fact God has chosen to create man with a free will, He wants to respect our free will. If God purified us against our will, He would destroy the essence of the human being, our free conscience. Man cannot really accept to be changed by God and he cannot be in communion with God as long as even a shadow of doubt and distrust remains in his heart ( it must be stressed that such a distrust may exist even without the man is aware of it, at the unconscious level).
In order to destroy every shadow of doubt and distrust in our heart, God has chosen to give us the greatest proof of love that may exist: Christ's Passion.
However those who do not believe in God, despite Christ's Passian, are not willing to allow God to purify them and they remain in their sins and therefore they cannot go to heaven

 

[mmarco]

I am sorry but you are now merely reiterating an unjustified claim. At best you can only say that consciousness is not fully understood. That does not make it irreducible.

False. The laws of physics are something we know and the laws of physics describe all the properties of subatomic particles and quantum fields; among these properties there is no room for consciousness. This is something we KNOW, and therefore the irreducibility of consciousness to the laws of physics is a scientific result. I am simply rationally analysing our scientific knowledges.

 

[firedragon]

The Son of God is a part of God.

A part of God? You mean you also dont believe in the trinity?

 

[Subduction Zone]

False. The laws of physics are something we know and the laws of physics describe all the properties of subatomic particles and quantum fields; among these properties there is no room for consciousness. This is something we KNOW, and therefore the irreducibility of consciousness to the laws of physics is a scientific result. I am simply rationally analysing our scientific knowledges.

Where do they show this? Find a link to a valid article that supports your nonsense. That means it has to come from a well respected peer reviewed source.

 

[mmarco]

Where do they show this? Find a link to a valid article that supports your nonsense. That means it has to come from a well respected peer reviewed source.

The fact that consciousness is irreducible to the laws of physics is so obvious and well known that no respected peer revewed source would publish an article about such obviousness..

 

[Subduction Zone]

The fact that consciousness is irreducible to the laws of physics is so obvious and well known that no respected peer revewed source would publish an article about such obviousness..

it is not obvious. It is not a fact. You are just flapping your arms. That means, like it or not, that you only have an argument from ignorance.

Until you support your claim you have nothing.

EDIT: There have even been peer reviewed articles on why one plus one is two. It does not get much more "obvious" than that. Your claim that they would not publish because it is obvious fails. No serious scientist seems to believe this. You did not only fail, you crashed and burned.

 

[Colt]

A part of God? You mean you also dont believe in the trinity?

Yes, I do believe in the indivisible Paradise Trinity, but Jesus isn’t the second person of that Trinity. He never said that he was.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, I do believe in the indivisible Paradise Trinity, but Jesus isn’t the second person of that Trinity. He never said that he was.

Please allow me to understand your theology. I am not planning to debate you.

1. So you dont believe Jesus is the second person in the trinity. But you believe in the trinity. Then who is Jesus? What is the relationship between the three? Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

2. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? I mean his own son! Then do you believe Jesus existed eternally with God in principle or was he a begotten son created or begotten by God at a latter time?

Interesting.

 

[mmarco]

it is not obvious. It is not a fact. You are just flapping your arms. That means, like it or not, that you only have an argument from ignorance.

Until you support your claim you have nothing.

EDIT: There have even been peer reviewed articles on why one plus one is two. It does not get much more "obvious" than that. Your claim that they would not publish because it is obvious fails. No serious scientist seems to believe this. You did not only fail, you crashed and burned.

I can only suggest to you to study physics, and you will easily understand that consciousness is irreducible to the laws of physics.
Best regards.

 

[Colt]

Please allow me to understand your theology. I am not planning to debate you.

1. So you dont believe Jesus is the second person in the trinity. But you believe in the trinity. Then who is Jesus? What is the relationship between the three? Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

2. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? I mean his own son! Then do you believe Jesus existed eternally with God in principle or was he a begotten son created or begotten by God at a latter time?

Interesting.

Jesus is our Creator Son, he is of origin in the Trinity which is Father, Son and Spirit. Jesus alluded to this just prior to retuning to heaven. He didn't say in the name of the Father, Christ and Holy spirit.

Yes, Jesus is a divine creator Son. The term "only begotten" is in reference to his uniqueness as a divine Son. God has many sons, we are all sons.

The Son by definition would be ancestral to the Father. We don't know when Christ Michael, aka Jesus of Nazareth had his beginning in the eternal past.

Because we are finite personality we can really only know God as One. They are All God.

 

[Colt]

I can only suggest to you to study physics, and you will easily understand that consciousness is irreducible to the laws of physics.
Best regards.

42:9.5 Physical stability associated with biologic elasticity is present in nature only because of the well-nigh infinite wisdom possessed by the Master Architects of creation. Nothing less than transcendental wisdom could ever design units of matter which are at the same time so stable and so efficiently flexible. UB 1955