Why I do not think the marriage of A’isha and Muhammad was not wrong

[LuisDantas]

I can't help but find the controversy somewhat ironic, all things considered.

It is not really possible to defend a tradition of allowing adult men to marry children under 14 or so. But even saying that makes many people unconfortable, because they are so attached to expectations of infallible, immutable guidelines from a supposedly divine source.

That realization alone should teach us all a lot about the dangers of reliance on dogma and tradition.

As for Aisha, I don't think there is a very clear picture of how her marriage to Muhammad affected her. From what I have learned she was a proud, courageous woman full of personal initiative. On the other hand, both Sunni and Shia traditions seem to agree that this initiative was right there at the core of some of their most painful conflicts, which last to this day and are likely to remain as long as Islaam itself endures.

What that says about her virtues and flaws and those of the people surrounding and disputing with her is a very difficult matter, not likely to be solved any time soon, if ever. But I think it is legitimate to wonder if we she would not be better off without the pressure of being the youngest wife of the prophet hanging over her. Then again, it is just as legitimate to wonder if it is a good idea to have prophets themselves, or god-concepts.

 

[Sunstone]

To me, arguing X was ok back in the day because everyone back then thought it was ok is highly problematic. "Oh really? Female genital mutilation was somehow healthier back then?"

 

[paarsurrey]

It should be clarified that what you are saying is, by far, the norm in the Muslim world. The vast majority DO NOT take children for their wives and most parents would not allow theirs children to take part. That said, there is a small percentage of Muslims who do think that it is OK because Muhammad did it. The thing to keep in mind is that marriage has only recently become an act between adults in the western world. It wasn't so long ago that older men would routinely marry younger women in our society, let alone in a society 1400+ years ago.

Those Muslims are wrong, they need more education on the matter. Quran/Islam/Muhammad gave no commandment to marry young girls and are not responsible for their mistakes.
Regards

 

[Rational Agnostic]

We think its wrong now..Guaranteed someone in your family married young or had sex in their pre-teens

Yeah, and some of my ancestors were probably slaves, had slaves, or thought slavery was OK. Does that mean slavery is OK? Your logic is poor. You're arguing that because pedophilia was culturally accepted in Muhammed's time, it wasn't wrong. The same logic could be used to justify slavery of people based on race among many other atrocities.

 

[Twilight Hue]

There is no commandment in Quran to marry young girls, marriage is to take place between adults i.e when they attain marriageable age, and not before.
Regards

What was the marital age regarded as in the time of Muhammad?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

This is wrong, for the most part.

Historically, life expectancies were low mainly because of high infant mortality. Someone who survived to adulthood could usually be expected to have a long life. Not as long as today - I’m sure that deaths in people’s 30s and 40s were more common than they are now - but people would have been familiar with a significant number of people living into their 80s and 90s.

Do you have any evidence to back this up anthropologically?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

What was the marital age regarded as in the time of Muhammad?

People in those times like Jews and other Semitic people married to ally tribes together. This was no different from than what Genghis Khan did.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

People in those times like Jews and other Semitic people married to ally tribes together. This was no different from than what Genghis Khan did.

And since when is Genghis Khan a good moral role model?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

*CONTROVERSY ALERT*

Without going into full discussion on the aspect of Hadith or any other narrative that could be counterproductive, I’d like to look at this from a sociological position. I think when critics of Muhammad’s marriage to A’isha is presented, I think a lot of it has to do with the projection of what we as a society perceive as acceptable and unacceptable.

I think contributing to this are the centuries of paintings and pictures of saints and prophets of the Biblical times presented as grown men and women when in fact historically some of them were younger. For example Mary the mother of Jesus was said to be 14 years old and Joseph, her husband was much older.

But when it comes to renaissance art, Mary is often depicted as a grown mature woman. But I would contest that Mary was probably no mature than your average junior high school girl. We forget that the average life expectancy in those times were less. If I’m not mistaken to live in your 30’s you are or were considered an elder and in your 20’s you may be considered old.

For me, the critique of the prophet Muhammad marrying a 9 year-old girl has more to do with the combination of a dislike for Islam along with the ignorance of human civilization in those times. I am sure in Solomon’s harem, there were plenty of young girls he laid with, but I believe a lot of times our own personal biases influence our way of thinking about the scriptural prophets.

Yeah, it's hypocritical. That being said, an adult shouldn't be marrying a child. I don't mind if two minors get together, but adults should shop in their own store, so to speak.

 

[columbus]

And since when is Genghis Khan a good moral role model?

The Trump era in the USA?
Tom

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yeah, and some of my ancestors were probably slaves, had slaves, or thought slavery was OK. Does that mean slavery is OK? Your logic is poor. You're arguing that because pedophilia was culturally accepted in Muhammed's time, it wasn't wrong. The same logic could be used to justify slavery of people based on race among many other atrocities.

This has nothing to do with slavery apples and oranges.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Nor am I, I'm just saying the logic needs to be consistent. You can't say that sex with little kids was okay because it was an accepted social norm, but enslavement was not even though it too was an accepted social norm.

I never said sex with little kids, I was referring to marriage. Again this is what I meant by projecting.. Here I''m referring to some tribal union via marriage and you're sharing an idea of sex with kids and this is not my attempt..

 

[Epic Beard Man]

This is wrong, for the most part.

Historically, life expectancies were low mainly because of high infant mortality. Someone who survived to adulthood could usually be expected to have a long life. Not as long as today - I’m sure that deaths in people’s 30s and 40s were more common than they are now - but people would have been familiar with a significant number of people living into their 80s and 90s.

I wanted to come back to some of the cultures where marriage especially at a young age was common:

Being married at young age more common in Hmong culture

Research regarding underage marriage

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2017.1390162

Another from Wikipedia that explains child marriage globally....(Tried to find a more in-depth research approach)

Child marriage - Wikipedia

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I can't help but find the controversy somewhat ironic, all things considered.

It is not really possible to defend a tradition of allowing adult men to marry children under 14 or so.

Not depending anything, just stating that in my opinion the idea of marrying this young at this time is not problematic for me considering the cultural dynamics behind it. Marrying this young is not just a Semitic tradition, this was also a tradition in Europe and elsewhere in different parts of the world. Just as arranged marriages are also a part of various cultures so is this. This is my attempt in finding an understanding.

As I have explained before, life expectancy in certain harsh terrains was less than what it is now. Also, medical technology is advanced now which allows us to live longer but the fact remains is that men in these various cultures including the culture of Muhammad was common.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

And since when is Genghis Khan a good moral role model?

I know you're not that dense never did I say a good role model I'm merely citing a popular military leader.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

To me, arguing X was ok back in the day because everyone back then thought it was ok is highly problematic. "Oh really? Female genital mutilation was somehow healthier back then?"

Nobody is talking about FGM just as nobody is talking about MGM. This is about understanding. Having an understanding is not synonymous with agreement and I think this line of logic is also problematic.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wanted to come back to some of the cultures where marriage especially at a young age was common:

Being married at young age more common in Hmong culture

Research regarding underage marriage

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2017.1390162

Another from Wikipedia that explains child marriage globally....(Tried to find a more in-depth research approach)

Child marriage - Wikipedia

Child marriage is understandable in cultures where children and women were viewed as the man’s property. Is this the sort of society that you want?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yeah, it's hypocritical. That being said, an adult shouldn't be marrying a child. I don't mind if two minors get together, but adults should shop in their own store, so to speak.

Then why aren't people speaking out about some of the states that allow one to marry at a young age?

Age of marriage in the United States - Wikipedia

I can marry someone in Arizona at 16

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Child marriage is understandable in cultures where children and women were viewed as the man’s property. Is this the sort of society that you want?

How do I word this without sounding condescending.....?

Understanding a thing is not synonymous with being in agreement with it. I'm taking the approach from a more a more socio-anthropological position. My position is thus that one cannot critique a thing of one culture and not the other. Mary the mother of Jesus was said to be 14 but she is often portrayed as a woman in art. Although I think there are some religious biases at play here my position is before we critique something as bad we need to understand why things occur. We can talk about "whatisms" all day, the point is explaining why. Often times people make brash comments about pedophilia (which is an incorrect term today) on Muhammad's marriage, without understanding the Semitic culture behind that in that time period.

 

[Debater Slayer]

In a parallel universe, more people would probably consider it an unfortunate moral defect for any culture to engage in apologetics toward the marriage of an adult in ancient times to a nine-year-old, but here we have a multiple-page thread dismissing different arguments against it and instead focusing on why it was nothing special "back then."

I can't help but be reminded of this quote right now: