Why I do not think the marriage of A’isha and Muhammad was not wrong

[columbus]

Without going into full discussion on the aspect of Hadith or any other narrative that could be counterproductive,

Without this aspect of the issue, Hadith is held up a life guide, it's just a story about ancient people. Lots of stuff happened back in the days that today would be considered heinous.

Based on the story, Aisha did just fine, thank you. Muhammad made her a queen. Not some poor victim by any means. And since nobody's got her birth certificate or anything nobody really knows what happened when. For a 7th century Arabic warlord, Muhammad was a raging feminist. If he cherished Aisha as much as the stories say, he protected her from harm not abused her as a sex toy. A warlord like him could have hot and cold running slave girls, freely given by their fathers to curry favor. From his first marriage on throughout his life, Muhammad was not like most men in that culture. I see no reason to think that Aisha was any different. I simply don't believe that Muhammad violated her.

The problem comes in when later guys justify abusive behavior with "Well, Muhammad had multiple 'wives', including 9 year olds. I am just following Hadith."
It's the premise that Hadith is a guide to life in the modern world that is the moral issue, not the legends about Muhammad's marital life. If modern Muslims took Muhammad's ethics about feminism (egalitarianism really) as seriously as they do the details, the Islamic world would be much improved.
Tom

 

[Brickjectivity]

This is 2018 - things have moved on, so must religions.

I partly agree except humanity is unchanged. It is too soon to decide things have moved on permanently as its easy to regress to barbarism.

Don't you have anything better to do than try to defend the deplorable actions of an ancient pedophile?

Pedophilia is an abnormal condition, but thats not what is really under the glass. Desire for young girls is typical across all cultures both historically and in modern times. Its not good for our times and not legal below 18 (or 16 in Europe). Mainly its illegal because of medical improvements and longer lifespans.

If you think that social acceptance and cultural normalcy alone are the criteria for something being morally permissible, then keep in mind that slavery too was once socially acceptable and a cultural norm. Just food for thought.

It likely will be again. Hopefully not, but there is one of the reasons that its dangerous to think things have moved on. Thus it is important for Islam to be flexible, because it must suit both high tech and primitive times.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

While it seems to me that it is largely moot to criticize A'isha's marriage to Muhammad given the historical context and that multiple historical accounts indicate she lived a healthy, happy life--and showed none of the typical symptoms one would expect from a victim of child sexual abuse--I also think there is quite a lot of merit to criticizing the inconsistency of being morally absolutist and then switching to moral relativism to leverage one's religious apologetics for a religious figure, such as Muhammad.

There could also be rather problematic ramifications for modern laws and traditions based on Islamic texts if lawmakers and considerable numbers of people viewed marriage to nine-year-olds as absolutely morally acceptable and considered it something their moral role model did. I'm sure the child bride issues in places like Yemen and some other parts of the Middle East didn't originate in a cultural and religious vacuum.

But what are those criticisms? Let us leave the word salad alone and discuss what are the issues?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

But you are basing a way of life, a religion on a book full of such ancient traditions.

This is 2018 - things have moved on, so must religions.

We are discussing a marriage not what is written....These are traditions that have been iin the Semitic culture since forever.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Don't you have anything better to do than try to defend the deplorable actions of an ancient pedophile?

What do you call Joseph who married Mary the mother of Jesus who is said to be 14?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

If you think that social acceptance and cultural normalcy alone are the criteria for something being morally permissible, then keep in mind that slavery too was once socially acceptable and a cultural norm. Just food for thought.

I'm not trying to get into a moral equivalency debate here....

 

[Epic Beard Man]

My own thoughts of marriage differ from what orthodox Christianity has defined it.

The two become one flesh, as Jesus said. The spiritual doesn't become one, the flesh does. Jesus also said the flesh profits nothing. The idea was to contain the desires of the flesh. Paul said it would be better NOT to marry unless the desire of lust was overpowering one.

That said, it would matter not to me if the containment was between any aged persons, or any sexual divisions (male and female). Is containment of lust successful if two men became one flesh?

It's a question to ponder when you realize that flesh has no bearing on love of spirit.

With all you have said I wonder if you have an idea just what the heck you just wrote.....

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Without this aspect of the issue, Hadith is held up a life guide, it's just a story about ancient people. Lots of stuff happened back in the days that today would be considered heinous.

Based on the story, Aisha did just fine, thank you. Muhammad made her a queen. Not some poor victim by any means. And since nobody's got her birth certificate or anything nobody really knows what happened when. For a 7th century Arabic warlord, Muhammad was a raging feminist. If he cherished Aisha as much as the stories say, he protected her from harm not abused her as a sex toy. A warlord like him could have hot and cold running slave girls, freely given by their fathers to curry favor. From his first marriage on throughout his life, Muhammad was not like most men in that culture. I see no reason to think that Aisha was any different. I simply don't believe that Muhammad violated her.

The problem comes in when later guys justify abusive behavior with "Well, Muhammad had multiple 'wives', including 9 year olds. I am just following Hadith."
It's the premise that Hadith is a guide to life in the modern world that is the moral issue, not the legends about Muhammad's marital life. If modern Muslims took Muhammad's ethics about feminism (egalitarianism really) as seriously as they do the details, the Islamic world would be much improved.
Tom

Multiple marriage was not even an issue for Solomon, or David, or anyone else....

 

[Epic Beard Man]

"Things were different then." Yeah, they were different, and they were wrong. Should we just brush off all the things in the past that were terribly immoral as just being "different?" Gimme a break.

We think its wrong now..Guaranteed someone in your family married young or had sex in their pre-teens

 

[YmirGF]

We think its wrong now..Guaranteed someone in your family married young or had sex in their pre-teens

My parents were both 17 years old.... when mom got pregnant and married soon after... (They were together for 61 years or so...)

 

[Dawnofhope]

*CONTROVERSY ALERT*

Without going into full discussion on the aspect of Hadith or any other narrative that could be counterproductive, I’d like to look at this from a sociological position. I think when critics of Muhammad’s marriage to A’isha is presented, I think a lot of it has to do with the projection of what we as a society perceive as acceptable and unacceptable.

I think contributing to this are the centuries of paintings and pictures of saints and prophets of the Biblical times presented as grown men and women when in fact historically some of them were younger. For example Mary the mother of Jesus was said to be 14 years old and Joseph, her husband was much older.

But when it comes to renaissance art, Mary is often depicted as a grown mature woman. But I would contest that Mary was probably no mature than your average junior high school girl. We forget that the average life expectancy in those times were less. If I’m not mistaken to live in your 30’s you are or were considered an elder and in your 20’s you may be considered old.

For me, the critique of the prophet Muhammad marrying a 9 year-old girl has more to do with the combination of a dislike for Islam along with the ignorance of human civilization in those times. I am sure in Solomon’s harem, there were plenty of young girls he laid with, but I believe a lot of times our own personal biases influence our way of thinking about the scriptural prophets.

Up until relatively recent in human history there was no age limit placed on marriage and polygamy was considered normal. The make up of society was very different from these modern times.

In more recent times monogamy has become the norm and an age of marriage established to ensure consenting adult are married and children are protected.

As recently as 1880 in your country the legal age in most states in the USA was either 10 or 12 years old.

Children and Youth in History | Age of Consent Laws

I hear many Christians criticising Muhammad for polygamy and child marriage yet there are no laws in the bible that prohibit polygamy or restrict the age of marriage.

A'isha despite her allegedly young age of marriage went on to become one of the outstanding women in the history of Islam.

 

[Debater Slayer]

But what are those criticisms? Let us leave the word salad alone and discuss what are the issues?

I'm not sure what you mean. Which criticisms and issues are you asking about? And what are you referring to as a "word salad"?

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

*CONTROVERSY ALERT*

Without going into full discussion on the aspect of Hadith or any other narrative that could be counterproductive, I’d like to look at this from a sociological position. I think when critics of Muhammad’s marriage to A’isha is presented, I think a lot of it has to do with the projection of what we as a society perceive as acceptable and unacceptable.

I think contributing to this are the centuries of paintings and pictures of saints and prophets of the Biblical times presented as grown men and women when in fact historically some of them were younger. For example Mary the mother of Jesus was said to be 14 years old and Joseph, her husband was much older.

But when it comes to renaissance art, Mary is often depicted as a grown mature woman. But I would contest that Mary was probably no mature than your average junior high school girl. We forget that the average life expectancy in those times were less. If I’m not mistaken to live in your 30’s you are or were considered an elder and in your 20’s you may be considered old.

For me, the critique of the prophet Muhammad marrying a 9 year-old girl has more to do with the combination of a dislike for Islam along with the ignorance of human civilization in those times. I am sure in Solomon’s harem, there were plenty of young girls he laid with, but I believe a lot of times our own personal biases influence our way of thinking about the scriptural prophets.

Loli's are for head patting and not fapping!

If Muhammad had only saw that meme. Ah oh well!

 

[Phantasman]

With all you have said I wonder if you have an idea just what the heck you just wrote.....

Wonder away......

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm not trying to get into a moral equivalency debate here....

Nor am I, I'm just saying the logic needs to be consistent. You can't say that sex with little kids was okay because it was an accepted social norm, but enslavement was not even though it too was an accepted social norm.

 

[beenie]

Without this aspect of the issue, Hadith is held up a life guide, it's just a story about ancient people. Lots of stuff happened back in the days that today would be considered heinous.

Based on the story, Aisha did just fine, thank you. Muhammad made her a queen. Not some poor victim by any means. And since nobody's got her birth certificate or anything nobody really knows what happened when. For a 7th century Arabic warlord, Muhammad was a raging feminist. If he cherished Aisha as much as the stories say, he protected her from harm not abused her as a sex toy. A warlord like him could have hot and cold running slave girls, freely given by their fathers to curry favor. From his first marriage on throughout his life, Muhammad was not like most men in that culture. I see no reason to think that Aisha was any different. I simply don't believe that Muhammad violated her.

The problem comes in when later guys justify abusive behavior with "Well, Muhammad had multiple 'wives', including 9 year olds. I am just following Hadith."
It's the premise that Hadith is a guide to life in the modern world that is the moral issue, not the legends about Muhammad's marital life. If modern Muslims took Muhammad's ethics about feminism (egalitarianism really) as seriously as they do the details, the Islamic world would be much improved.
Tom

This is the best response in this entire thread. I agree with every single word of it.

 

[Mock Turtle]

All Muslims must obey the law of the land in which they live in secular matters.
Regards

True, but I believe the young age of Aisha has been cited (by certain clerics) as being a reason for allowing the marrying of very young girls in some Muslim countries even if this is not a majority view. And some countries still have very young ages for marriage or no such age. Not confined to Islam though - just look at the USA for this - as mentioned by another.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

While it seems to me that it is largely moot to criticize A'isha's marriage to Muhammad given the historical context and that multiple historical accounts indicate she lived a healthy, happy life--and showed none of the typical symptoms one would expect from a victim of child sexual abuse--I also think there is quite a lot of merit to criticizing the inconsistency of being morally absolutist and then switching to moral relativism to leverage one's religious apologetics for a religious figure, such as Muhammad.

Exactly. This has ever been one of my pet peeves about Islamophilia. Islamic apologists doing this are trying to have their cake and eat it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We forget that the average life expectancy in those times were less. If I’m not mistaken to live in your 30’s you are or were considered an elder and in your 20’s you may be considered old.

This is wrong, for the most part.

Historically, life expectancies were low mainly because of high infant mortality. Someone who survived to adulthood could usually be expected to have a long life. Not as long as today - I’m sure that deaths in people’s 30s and 40s were more common than they are now - but people would have been familiar with a significant number of people living into their 80s and 90s.

 

[Augustus]

but people would have been familiar with a significant number of people living into their 80s and 90s.

According to the same sources we know about Aisha's age from, we also 'know' that Adam lived to be 940 years old (he was also 90 feet tall). Abraham lived to a comparatively brief 169, and John the Baptist was the shortest lived of the prophets at a mere 95.