WHY I LEFT ISLAM - The Story of An Apostate In Saudi

[Shadow Wolf]

You cannot continue to defend Islamic fanaticism and fundamentalism as acceptable.

When did I do that? Actually, I stated the very opposite when I stated the cultures that breed this are what need reformed.

Liberal rhetoric.

Their problem is murdering thousands everywhere.

Soviet Russia got involved, it didn't work out. America got involved in the 70s, things didn't get better; they propped up Bin Laden, that did NOT end well for us; we eliminated Saddam, and now we have ISIS. Actually, since the "war on terror," terrorism has only become a bigger issue.
And by staying out, yes I mean stay out. Many Middle Eastern countries, that we know today, didn't even get to draw up their own borders because the British and French took it upon themselves to that for them. This was such a monumental **** up that they put warring tribes and sectarian groups into the same nations, nationalism began to rise, and that nationalism lead to religious extremism. Yes, we all need to stay out and let them fight their own wars. It's costing us too much money, and we have lost too many lives of our own trying to control them.

 

[jeager106]

Islam has caused these problems, and islam is not innocent, IMHO and most of the western world agrees with me on this, as well as much of the eastern world.

You cannot continue to defend Islamic fanaticism and fundamentalism as acceptable.


Islam is a curse upon the human existence.
Liberal rhetoric.

Their problem is murdering thousands everywhere.

 

[outhouse]

When did I do that? Actually, I stated the very opposite when I stated the cultures that breed this are what need reformed.

because you are ignoring the factual tie islam belongs to these cultures.

the cultures factually are Islamic cultures

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some 40% in the USA are so devoted to this religion, they still refuse academic knowledge, the same way islam does.

It actually furthers my post, because Western cultures are still reforming. It's still very much a Christian nation in terms of followers, but more and more Christians, following the reforms of Enlightenment and post-Enlightment, are accepting science and other things.

 

[outhouse]

jeagar106

please learn how to use the quote function.


Do not put your reply in my text as you did.

You are making me look like I stated your words.


PLEASE place your own words below the quoted text

 

[outhouse]

It actually furthers my post, because Western cultures are still reforming. It's still very much a Christian nation in terms of followers, but more and more Christians, following the reforms of Enlightenment and post-Enlightment, are accepting science and other things.

the problem here you ignore is that islam equals as an example, YEC dogma in its level of fanaticism and fundamentalism.

there is no reform and its needed IMHO

 

[Shadow Wolf]

because you are ignoring the factual tie islam belongs to these cultures.

I've never ignored this. Actually, your posts seem more like you are nit-picking and not wanting to consider what I am saying. As I said earlier, even many Muslims in these places want government and cultural reform, but, for good reasons, they are terrified of standing up for this. I stated the Quran does have some nasty passages in it. What you are ignoring is when I said there are many non-violent and even scientifically minded Muslims. And when you look at groups like American born Muslims and Middle Eastern born Muslims, we see such a radical difference that it's short sighted to point it solely on the religion, especially when we know that Christian nations have remained Christian (many of the even officially as state policy), but the societies themselves have reformed to the point that the Salem Witch Trials were actually unusually late considering the cultural shifts that had already taken place.

 

[outhouse]

Yes, we all need to stay out and let them fight their own wars.

Liberal rhetoric.

Their constant violence since the religion was formed by bloodshed, has now spread globally.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

jeagar106

please learn how to use the quote function.

Please realize we have a faulty quote function and other technical issues with the forum software.

 

[outhouse]

As I said earlier, even many Muslims in these places want government and cultural reform,

YOU are missing the key here.

We need religious reform here, as the cultures and religion, are one in the same

 

[outhouse]

Please realize we have a faulty quote function and other technical issues with the forum software.

I'm helping him as it was obvious he did not know how to quote properly.

I have never not once experienced this issue, nor seen many unless it was a mistake.

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

How many islamic people, what percentage wants Sharia? We have to recognize the problem as Islamic, if islam is going to fix the problems in islam.

In respected surveys respondents from the vast majority of countries (if I remember correctly) report that they want to be governed by Islamic law although I doubt so because political parties that want a sudden implementation of Islamic law such as ones in Egypt and Yemen didn't win their elections.

You may view the problems in Saudi Arabia as stemming solely from Islam but I don't think it is fair to generalise thus misleading people and ignoring other (more widespread) interpretations

 

[outhouse]

What you are ignoring is when I said there are many non-violent and even scientifically minded Muslims.

Your factually wrong. I know the problems all to well, I have ignored NOTHING.

There are many YEC who are non-violent and even scientifically minded, BUT that does not make it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nor is it acceptable that we do not try and correct the fanaticism and fundamentalism. [reform]

 

[outhouse]

You may view the problems in Saudi Arabia as stemming solely from Islam but I don't think it is fair to generalise thus misleading people and ignoring other (more widespread) interpretations

Do you have someone or a group in mind we can blame for these Islamic problems besides islam itself?

How do you not interpret an Islamic problem, as not Islamic?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm helping him as it was obvious he did not know how to quote properly.

No, you sounded more like an ******* assuming he doesn't know how to use the quote function, which is prone to messing up. It's happened to me several times, and if you pay attention, we have a ton of posts that look like his.

Your factually wrong. I know the problems all to well, I have ignored NOTHING.

You apparently don't know the problem because you aren't realizing we have a religion whose adherents we can fairly accurately predict their behaviors based on what culture they were born and raised in.

Nor is it acceptable that we do not try and correct the fanaticism and fundamentalism.

How would you like it if your neighbor barged into your home and started telling you how to live? It's not our place to try to force change, and the only way for reforms to be accepted is for them to come from within. If we launch another war to "install democracy," all that will accomplish is stirring up deeper anti-West sentiments. The British lost that war, Soviet Russia lost that war, and America needs to take a hint from history.

Liberal rhetoric.

Welcome to the club of those who want to assume I'm a Liberal and get my information from Lib-news talking points.

 

[outhouse]

How would you like it if your neighbor barged into your home and started telling you how to live?

Liberal rhetoric

How would you like it if a religion flew jets into tall buildings murdering thousands of your own people, because of what many claim is adherence to mythology?

 

[outhouse]

You apparently don't know the problem because you aren't realizing we have a religion whose adherents we can fairly accurately predict their behaviors based on what culture they were born and raised in.

Red herring

and it in no way refutes


There are many YEC who are non-violent and even scientifically minded, BUT that does not make it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nor is it acceptable that we do not try and correct the fanaticism and fundamentalism. [reform]

 

[outhouse]

No, you sounded more like an *******

Personal attack much?

 

[icehorse]

Since 1984, thousands of Jews have left the USA for Israel, and they're still leaving. Do you believe that the US Christians are driving them out? Surely Jews moved to Israel because they were Zionists.

In what ways do you think this is a valid our useful comparison? This strikes me as a real "apples and oranges" sort of comparison. Jews have lived throughout the ME for thousands of years. Not so with the US. We also have to factor in that Israel welcomes true refugees from around the world. I hope you're not implying that a Jew deciding to to move from the US to Israel ought to be referred to as a "refugee"! :O

 

[Smart_Guy]

The Qur'an has not changed, but it is premature to presume that such a fact would be beneficial for Islam or for Muslims. Or for anyone really.

Actually, relying on scripture is pretty much not a good idea by definition.

The Golden Age of Islam took place with the same Quran, and that's a fact. It is premature to presume that it wasn't beneficial in the Golden Age just because of negative feelings against it.

They should be looked down upon. They place mythology before credible academic knowledge as stated, they are NOT scientific. They are religious instead of scientific.

Ah, I'm saying scientists, teachers and gate keepers and and you're saying they place mythology before this and that? I repeat the obvious; many scientists were Muslims.

Yes.

The people today are more devoted then in the past.

Are you seriously saying this? Just because you think the status of Muslims these days support you claims or what you like does not mean you opinion on them in the past is true. You're only making up facts to satisfy your claims.

That's right, but the interpretation and devotion has changed.

Today fanaticism and fundamentalism is king, in the past education and knowledge was king.


islam was once the worlds center for education and knowledge, that is long gone. Now sadly i might add. the religion harbors the most illiterate group of any group on the planet.

https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2014/04/04/illiterate-islam/

Which brings me to the unpleasant thesis sentence of this little screed. Islam is illiterate. Its teachers are illiterate. Its educational system, to the extent it calls itself Islamic, is impoverished. Not particularly in its faithful, who have constructed some good (if not prestigious or world-ranked) universities and produced some excellent scholars and a vast array of professionals in the last century—mainly by availing themselves of western education and training.

But at its core–in its clergy. It is clear to almost anyone who looks at the imams and mullahs of Islam that the only comparison between Islam and the West relative to theology would have to be made between the worst graduates of fundamentalist Bible colleges in America and the best graduates of Islamic seminaries–anywhere.

What is truly remarkable, if we strip bare the reality behind these facts, is that undeniably intelligent people around the globe tolerate a situation where they can respect and obey the religious dicta of men (all men) whose religious training is roughly equivalent to (but probably not as broad as) someone with a two year degree from a junior college in Mississippi. It is impossible to think of an apt analogy without referring to slavery.

Just as I said above. You're defining devotion according to the way you want it to support your claims. As long as the Quran is the same now and then, it is also possible that the case it is exactly the opposite of your claims.

islam was once the worlds center for education and knowledge...

...Islam is illiterate. Its teachers are illiterate.

You're contradicting yourself here. If Islam is illiterate, how come you admit it was once the world's center for education and knowledge? If Islam is illiterate as you claim, it should never had been the world's center for education and knowledge ever.

I think when people talk about reform or that things change in time, it has mostly to do with interpretation. Otherwise how do you explain how many people read the exact same book but have different views and conclusions? It's not only the Quran, but every book that exists. The book might have been preserved but it's unlikely that people always have the same subjective understanding and views about what it means and how to apply its teachings.

So personally, if I say I'd like to see Islam reformed, I might not mean you have to edit the Qu'ran's text, but to change people's understanding and application of it. There's a huge difference between the person who reads it and is able to gather a peaceful message from it and a person who reads it and starts stoning lots of people to death. See what I mean? And it comes from the SAME book! Both people would also claim they're Muslims and both would say their view is the correct one and the other person isn't a real Muslim. *Shrugs*

I hope what I'm trying to say is clear.

Perfectly clear and very well said. For some reason some people do not wanna see this clear idea and they demonize religions and think a religion, a non living thing, can reform itself, instead of the people following it.

By the way, the Quran does not mention stoning at all