Because you don't want it to exist?
Nah. You want us to not want it to exist.
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Why I shouldn't be astonished for those why deny a creator for such elaborated universe
- Thread starter magid
- Start date
Nah. You want us to not want it to exist.
Elaborated organised?
Sure looks elaborate but most certainly not organised. Gravity is what made this universe what it is today and gravity ensures the movement of spacial bodies is chaotic, at least in the long term.
Thermodynamics (entropy) predicts the way the universe develops. To date its right on the mark, no god required.
What is not known is how this universe began. I know of several hypothesis, each with its own charms, mathematically feasible, high quantum probability, even interpretation of existing evidence. As far as i know there are no hypothesis that require a god.
Edit : sorry, can't seem to get the image to show, here is the link
https://uhrforum.de/attachments/120...ersum-der-faden-fuer-sternegucker-capture.jpg
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That is actually not true.
But it is usually true of so-called "religions" that go out of their way to tell us that we should repent from "believing wrong"...
These days, when I see a question such as that which opens this thread, I can't help but feel that what is truly being asked is that we give some sort of assurance for a fragile sense of certainty.
How come so many different religious beliefs? Yours is the correct one? Not likely is it.
Audie
Veteran Member
Well! Your big C must be greater than the universe.
You see any probs for your big idea?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It may depend upon the metric that one uses. If one goes by number of believers in a religion it would be at least most since over half of the world's religions are Abrahamic. I can't say for sure if the Hindus or other religions have that belief. But I will accept your correction. Call it most then, not almost all.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
Infinite regress...if the creation is do great how much greater the creator...then how much greater the creator's creator...
It does in fact depend on how one counts religion... and also on what one considers to be a religion.
Frankly, I see it as a sort of derangement for a supposedly religious doctrine to present itself as a glorified bet with no evidence.
Cacotopia
Let's go full Trottle
The universe does not owe any explanation, people have been making stuff up about it since they first looked up at night. Just because an old book "says so", doesn't make it true. There is likely no conscious reason for it's existence, but sentience alone demands a why of things. A universe can come into existence without a reason.
Cacotopia
Let's go full Trottle
The moon has no reason its there, it has an affect on this planet but that is not a reason why it is there. It serves a function that we have observed in this solar system, function is not a conscious reason, much like the function Jupiter serves in the solar system. Keeping the asteroids in the asteroid belt and not slamming into other planets. Again it's function does not equate to a reason why it is there. It is there.
ecco
Veteran Member
Which Creator? Kaang...
People did not always live on the surface of the earth. At one time people and animals lived underneath the earth with Kaang (Käng), the Great Master and Lord of All Life. In this place people and animals lived together peacefully. They understood each other. No one ever wanted for anything and it was always light even though there wasn't any sun. During this time of bliss Kaang began to plan the wonders he would put in the world above.
First Kaang created a wondrous tree, with branches stretching over the entire country. At the base of the tree he dug a hole that reached all the way down into the world where the people and animals lived. After he had finished furnishing the world as he pleased he led the first man up the hole. He sat down on the edge of the hole and soon the first woman came up out of it. Soon all the people were gathered at the foot of the tree, awed by the world they had just entered. Next, Kaang began helping the animals climb out of the hole. In their eagerness some of the animals found a way to climb up through the tree's roots and come out of the branches. They continued racing out of the world beneath until all of the animals were out.
Kaang gathered all the people and animals about him. He instructed them to live together peacefully. Then he turned to the men and women and warned them not to build any fires or a great evil would befall them. They gave their word and Kaang left to where he could watch his world secretly.
As evening approached the sun began to sink beneath the horizon. The people and animals stood watching this phenomenon, but when the sun disappeared fear entered the hearts of the people. They could no longer see each other as they lacked the eyes of the animals which were capable of seeing in the dark. They lacked the warm fur of the animals also and soon grew cold. In desperation one man suggested that they build a fire to keep warm. Forgetting Kaang's warning they disobeyed him. They soon grew warm and were once again able to see each other.
However the fire frightened the animals. They fled to the caves and mountains and ever since the people broke Kaang's command people have not been able to communicate with animals. Now fear has replaced the seat friendship once held between the two groups.
First Kaang created a wondrous tree, with branches stretching over the entire country. At the base of the tree he dug a hole that reached all the way down into the world where the people and animals lived. After he had finished furnishing the world as he pleased he led the first man up the hole. He sat down on the edge of the hole and soon the first woman came up out of it. Soon all the people were gathered at the foot of the tree, awed by the world they had just entered. Next, Kaang began helping the animals climb out of the hole. In their eagerness some of the animals found a way to climb up through the tree's roots and come out of the branches. They continued racing out of the world beneath until all of the animals were out.
Kaang gathered all the people and animals about him. He instructed them to live together peacefully. Then he turned to the men and women and warned them not to build any fires or a great evil would befall them. They gave their word and Kaang left to where he could watch his world secretly.
As evening approached the sun began to sink beneath the horizon. The people and animals stood watching this phenomenon, but when the sun disappeared fear entered the hearts of the people. They could no longer see each other as they lacked the eyes of the animals which were capable of seeing in the dark. They lacked the warm fur of the animals also and soon grew cold. In desperation one man suggested that they build a fire to keep warm. Forgetting Kaang's warning they disobeyed him. They soon grew warm and were once again able to see each other.
However the fire frightened the animals. They fled to the caves and mountains and ever since the people broke Kaang's command people have not been able to communicate with animals. Now fear has replaced the seat friendship once held between the two groups.
ecco
Veteran Member
GODS: how come anyone claims that no creator for them.
Cacotopia
Let's go full Trottle
checkmate. or leads to circular reasoning to escape the infinite regression.
Sir Doom
Cooler than most of you
If I have to give it to someONE as opposed to someTHING then I'm only going to blame myself.
I see dragons because I want to. I actively seek out clouds that look like dragons and point them out to people. That's obviously my fault.
Clouds are what they are regardless of what I call them, but if no one calls them clouds then they aren't. I can as easily call it vapor clusters or discolored sky or atmospheric variance or any other number of terms. In that sense, clouds are there for the same reason as dragons. If I call it a cloud and someone knows what I mean, then that's what is there.
I created my vision as well. To the best of my knowledge, eyes come after brain so if there is some guiding intelligence behind I'm going to first point to the one intelligence that happens to be hardwired into my vision. Namely me. I 'grew' my eyes in that sense, its again... my fault.
Who I am is an ongoing process 100% within my administrative sphere of responsibility. Its been a journey I've walked for coming on 40 years and though it must be said that nearly every other human I've encountered has had some sort of influence on who I am, none more so than myself. I can even attest to supernatural beings of one type or another having an indirect influence on who I am as well. But again... none more so than myself.
So the answer is me.
Cacotopia
Let's go full Trottle
not entirely, if someone has never seen a dragon and in no way understand the concept of what a dragon is, they will never see a dragon, ever. People seeing things in clouds is just their brain trying to make sense of the complete randomness of clouds.
All those things are the result of natural processes, so, at least in metaphor, there is a creator, and that creator is nature.
Nature isn't sentient, nature has no purposes, but nature is deeply interesting and at times just plain wonderful ─ and the instrument for satisfying your curiosity about nature is science.
Try it! You'll like it!
Audie
Veteran Member
Is so true
Sir Doom
Cooler than most of you
Agreed, but I only meant to speak for myself. This is more or less what I was saying about clouds though. Clouds and dragons are similar in this respect. If people don't call them clouds (or at least think of them as clouds) then they aren't clouds. The point being I create the dragons myself as opposed to someone carving them for me to see.
Sure, but in this case I'm doing it intentionally. Using my imagination to see what I want. I could as easily see a gryphon or a manticore or a couple of monkeys playing football. I like dragons though... so that's what I see.