Why I'd argue meat-eating in and of itself isn't immoral

[Wannabe Yogi]

I approach some of it in a very tantric way.

In Tantra people eat meat in tantric rituals for the following reasons:

-To transcend the desire for eating meat,

-To give up our attachment to the pure and good so we can move beyond the pairs of opposites Pure and impure, good and evil,and pleasant and unpleasant.

 

[Jacksnyte]

In Tantra people eat meat in tantric rituals for the following reasons:

-To transcend the desire for eating meat,

-To give up our attachment to the pure and good so we can move beyond the pairs of opposites Pure and impure, good and evil,and pleasant and unpleasant.

I find the Aghora tradition fascinating!

 

[EverChanging]

In Tantra people eat meat in tantric rituals for the following reasons:

-To transcend the desire for eating meat,

-To give up our attachment to the pure and good so we can move beyond the pairs of opposites Pure and impure, good and evil,and pleasant and unpleasant.

Very interesting.

 

[reve]

I recall that Gandhi would sleep naked with his grandaughter? Indira, this was to enable him to transcend desire. Eating meat to transcend it. this is like watching porn to transcend it. Killing someone to transcend violence. Sinning to transcend sin. I remember in the early 70's a hippy friend who was a preaching macrobiotic vegan. I caught him eating two bars of chocolate hidden behind his car in Glastonbury. He then gave me the lecture of Yin and Yang. You must have some of both apparently for balance. I disagree it is all very silly, Like that Lama who gropes his disciples in the name of their enlightenment. Lots of gurus try that on. Dalai Lama is addicted to chicken. I think it was when the Panchen Lama died in a road accident in Tibet avoiding a chicken on the road that they were asking who was the chicken? Do not eat meat and stop crfeating silly excuses for doing so unless you want to eat creatures that have died naturally, which is forbidden in most religions. Some moks eat their dead masters though, just as silly, and some gurus or saddhus live and eat in graveyards. There is power in that but nothing nice. A bit like stealing the rings off the dead's fingers but much worse.

 

[Jacksnyte]

I recall that Gandhi would sleep naked with his grandaughter? Indira, this was to enable him to transcend desire. Eating meat to transcend it. this is like watching porn to transcend it. Killing someone to transcend violence. Sinning to transcend sin. I remember in the early 70's a hippy friend who was a preaching macrobiotic vegan. I caught him eating two bars of chocolate hidden behind his car in Glastonbury. He then gave me the lecture of Yin and Yang. You must have some of both apparently for balance. I disagree it is all very silly, Like that Lama who gropes his disciples in the name of their enlightenment. Lots of gurus try that on. Dalai Lama is addicted to chicken. I think it was when the Panchen Lama died in a road accident in Tibet avoiding a chicken on the road that they were asking who was the chicken? Do not eat meat and stop crfeating silly excuses for doing so unless you want to eat creatures that have died naturally, which is forbidden in most religions. Some moks eat their dead masters though, just as silly, and some gurus or saddhus live and eat in graveyards. There is power in that but nothing nice. A bit like stealing the rings off the dead's fingers but much worse.

I don't think you fully understand the Left Hand Path, friend. I suggest a bit more in-depth study on the subject with a somewhat less-biased mind will give you a truer insight .

 

[reve]

Aha Jacksnyte I am talking about the middle way not the left or riught hand paths which take you off the cliff. The middle way is against eating meat although you wont die if you have to. My Mum 'forgot' recently before she died and I ate it for her. Now they all 'forget'. When Hamed so kindly took me to his mosque with his boys then home for a meal which was cooked beautifully for us by his wife and daughter it was a biriyani I would call it. Rice with perhaps oxtail bones in it. Of course I ate it, how hurt they would have been. Any good karma cancelled out. Some biscuits will have animal fat in them - the worst product imaginable if you care about animals. What is left after the holocaust, in the basements of Dresden whatever that is how it feels in my stomach (sweet as honey on the tongue but in the belly bitter), or an ox in this case having its throat cut and bleeding to death terrified. Am I a bit too sensitive It is indigestible. Best avoided but not at all costs because we will be tested on that one day and look back at our bigotry with horror. Or do I need a bit more study with a less biased mind to get the picture that nothing is how it appears it is all illusion you can do what thou wilt in fact you must and you will not get any retribution which is clearly clearly nonsensical stuff believed by right and left and to be found in the aptly named Book of Lies written AC (Antichrist Crowley who called himself 666 the Beast, probably is the only true thing he said) believe him?

 

[Jacksnyte]

Aha Jacksnyte I am talking about the middle way not the left or riught hand paths which take you off the cliff. The middle way is against eating meat although you wont die if you have to. My Mum 'forgot' recently before she died and I ate it for her. Now they all 'forget'. When Hamed so kindly took me to his mosque with his boys then home for a meal which was cooked beautifully for us by his wife and daughter it was a biriyani I would call it. Rice with perhaps oxtail bones in it. Of course I ate it, how hurt they would have been. Any good karma cancelled out. Some biscuits will have animal fat in them - the worst product imaginable if you care about animals. What is left after the holocaust, in the basements of Dresden whatever that is how it feels in my stomach (sweet as honey on the tongue but in the belly bitter), or an ox in this case having its throat cut and bleeding to death terrified. Am I a bit too sensitive It is indigestible. Best avoided but not at all costs because we will be tested on that one day and look back at our bigotry with horror. Or do I need a bit more study with a less biased mind to get the picture that nothing is how it appears it is all illusion you can do what thou wilt in fact you must and you will not get any retribution which is clearly clearly nonsensical stuff believed by right and left and to be found in the aptly named Book of Lies written AC (Antichrist Crowley who called himself 666 the Beast, probably is the only true thing he said) believe him?

Crowley was a very brilliant man who delighted in making jokes at the expense of the gullible(IMO, a personal character flaw at times) which often are taken very literally even now by people who don't quite get what he is saying. The Book of Lies is filled with layered allegory, and, depending on one's level of initiation, has different messages for different levels. Crowley also used such monikers mentioned above to shock and keep at arms length those who will not(or can not) look deeper than the surface. One cannot attain to higher levels of consciousness safely without doing the preliminary study and work needed. You got it right: nothing is as it appears, and a simplistic surface reading of the works of Crowley will often leave one confused and possibly frightened. You say you aim for the middle way. The Middle way does include both Yin and Yang, as it is a way of balance. The middle way is about moderation in all things, not rejection of left, right, dark, light, up, down, or all around. To come to a balanced understanding, one must confront all manner of paradox and shifting meaning.

 

[reve]

The Middlle Way is halfway between anarchisat Revolution on the one hand and Dictatorship on the other. all extremes are unstable and reflected by opposite extremes. Yes right and left should be as close as our arms, joined by the heart. Almost every magician I have met has said whart you say about him Jacksnyte. His opposite was Gurdjieff who hated him but tried to treat his heroin addiction. if as asserted Crowley was a British spy a la Ian Fleming mould that would explain his lack of honesty, it was all a trick to worry the occult obsessed nazis but which now damages our own. No one will find Gurdjieff's secret brotherhood it does not exist but it was a good story. He had sheep carrying him through the Gobi desert on stilts to put him above the sandstorms and he fed them sheep meat mixed with sand he says lest anyone else try. We can drive across it now. Crowley's Book of Enoch is a rambling book written as though the actual book had not been found and translated I would think. His Egyptian work is childish nonsense compared to the Egyptian reality. This is what we find out bit by bit. I would say that about any book whose author claimed was divinely inspired or dictated by spirits. Beelzebub, Gabriel or anyone else. Possessed would be a better term and mischievous would be the adjective to put before the appropriate entity, even in the Bible. Spirits are there but want us eating meat. Why? What is it about burnt offerings that appeals to them? They become material.

 

[Jacksnyte]

The Middlle Way is halfway between anarchisat Revolution on the one hand and Dictatorship on the other. all extremes are unstable and reflected by opposite extremes. Yes right and left should be as close as our arms, joined by the heart. Almost every magician I have met has said whart you say about him Jacksnyte. His opposite was Gurdjieff who hated him but tried to treat his heroin addiction. if as asserted Crowley was a British spy a la Ian Fleming mould that would explain his lack of honesty, it was all a trick to worry the occult obsessed nazis but which now damages our own. No one will find Gurdjieff's secret brotherhood it does not exist but it was a good story. He had sheep carrying him through the Gobi desert on stilts to put him above the sandstorms and he fed them sheep meat mixed with sand he says lest anyone else try. We can drive across it now. Crowley's Book of Enoch is a rambling book written as though the actual book had not been found and translated I would think. His Egyptian work is childish nonsense compared to the Egyptian reality. This is what we find out bit by bit. I would say that about any book whose author claimed was divinely inspired or dictated by spirits. Beelzebub, Gabriel or anyone else. Possessed would be a better term and mischievous would be the adjective to put before the appropriate entity, even in the Bible. Spirits are there but want us eating meat. Why? What is it about burnt offerings that appeals to them? They become material.

The only book Crowley wrote that he claimed was inspired was the Book of the Law. Everything else he wrote was arrived at through his own reasoning and practice.
I fear we a veering way off topic with this. If you want to debate Crowley, I suggest a new thread.

 

[reve]

No I cant stand him but I am very interested in why we eat so much meat even though we know it is not humane and is causing cancer, obesity and extreme expense, shortening lives considerably.

 

[Jacksnyte]

No I cant stand him but I am very interested in why we eat so much meat even though we know it is not humane and is causing cancer, obesity and extreme expense, shortening lives considerably.

Because of a lack of moderation on our part. The simple fact is, humans are omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores. our bodies are designed to eat a varied diet, and, indeed need a varied diet in order to maintain health. I consider strict vegetarianism to be unbalanced, unhealthy, and extreme in much the same way as strict carnivores are. I stand by my belief that to live, we must kill, be it plant life(which has been proven to have it's own type of consciousness) or animal life, or fungoid life, or any of a number of other organisms that we unknowingly kill and/or consume every day of our lives. This is one way that we learn about death being a part of(and necessary to) life. I think anyone who adopts a diet due to an ideology is missing the point. It is putting form over substance.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Because of a lack of moderation on our part. The simple fact is, humans are omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores. our bodies are designed to eat a varied diet, and, indeed need a varied diet in order to maintain health. I consider strict vegetarianism to be unbalanced, unhealthy, and extreme in much the same way as strict carnivores are. I stand by my belief that to live, we must kill, be it plant life(which has been proven to have it's own type of consciousness) or animal life, or fungoid life, or any of a number of other organisms that we unknowingly kill and/or consume every day of our lives. This is one way that we learn about death being a part of(and necessary to) life. I think anyone who adopts a diet due to an ideology is missing the point. It is putting form over substance.

I do not tell others not to eat meat. Just stay away from Industrial farmed meats when possible. At the same time being a vegetarian is completely natural. People have done it for thousands of years. A little milk is of great help. It is also true that eating meat tends leads to much more destruction of vegetable life due to how animals are raised on factory farms.

 

[reve]

Some of these spirits once lived in the sea in an earlier creation.Enoch mentions Gopd dividing into Leviathan and another massive beast, one at sea (whales?) and one on land (TRex?). Anyway Trex ate meat, a real killing machine. Brontosaurus was herbivore but enormous like elephants. that is where this division comes from. David Icke talks about reptilians. Tey are not really lizards but perhaps lived in them once but now live in us (& demand meat). It is not ideology that makes us vegetarian, it is natural. If you try it you will find out why we do it. Same if you stop smoking you will wonder why you ever did.

 

[Jacksnyte]

Some of these spirits once lived in the sea in an earlier creation.Enoch mentions Gopd dividing into Leviathan and another massive beast, one at sea (whales?) and one on land (TRex?). Anyway Trex ate meat, a real killing machine. Brontosaurus was herbivore but enormous like elephants. that is where this division comes from. David Icke talks about reptilians. Tey are not really lizards but perhaps lived in them once but now live in us (& demand meat). It is not ideology that makes us vegetarian, it is natural. If you try it you will find out why we do it. Same if you stop smoking you will wonder why you ever did.

I have been vegetarian for long stretches of time before. I understand the attraction. I did feel lighter on my feet. The problem was, I felt lighter in the head as well. I tried so many different things to supplement and make sure I got everything I needed, but I still became malnutritioned. When I eat a balanced diet including some meat, my health improves drastically. Keep in mind, I do this in moderation. I don't eat meat with every meal, and the meat I eat is more often than not seafood.

 

[reve]

Very good I would say, maybe the ideal combination of yin and yang. Light headed is exactly right and of course thin bordering skinny like many saddhus. This ascetic thing, fasting and so on is all about getting the light head. Whirling dervishes do it. When you get the light head you go inside where it is very interesting. Do you remember that whirling feeling some nights when you were maybe 11 or 12. Feeling a bit nauseous and then bang that oh so colourful dream which possibly had you running for your life then flying then something much nicer. Maybe not but those that do recall these astral moments as they are called would find it much more enlightening now they are a bit older if only they could get back in. Lots claim to do this but that is easy with such occult skills. Learn the right words and there you go. My grandaughter says how can I eat a fish I am a fish, whatever that means. Vegetarian by her choice since she had choice (18 months?). I guess it is genetic. Leonardo da Vinci was, they say Hitler was. Not necessarily nice people then but quite powerful in their chosen way (right and left hand paths? Leonardo designed fighting machines, submarines and planes look what that led to - AH using them). I am not saying you need to stop eating meat to astral travel - but you will be lightheaded for a while before you do. Please dont believe me but here is a simple test to see if it works. Pick a day with fluffy clouds and pick one at random. Then with a silly glazed look on your face probably let it start disintegrating as it moves and after a little while the last wisp will go. Then notice all the other clouds still there. That is your inner self telling you that you can come in (in this little fable anyway). You then go to bed a little more focussed and when you get the first suggestion of lightheadedness maybe like you drank too much but you drank no alcohol for a long while. Well you aren't going to fight it you go with it. yuk. Then you are there. Ok no fluffy clouds where you are, well if you are lucky and it is completely overcast pick a hole for a sunbeam to burst through. Next most importantly is dont tell anyone. If you do it will never happen again. Others will only be unreasonably jealous and annoyed or laugh or declare you insane. It is just a you to you thing. Quite safe too. Alexander's mirror is another good way. Alcohol and drug free (children) and innocent enough (naive perhaps) for the inner self not to distrust and despise you. I think meat eating compromises that but let me know if I am wrong. I cant apologise for being patronising as I have aged because I served so many years being very receptive and polite which can be horrible at times.

 

[diosangpastol]

in Christians, To summarized, This are the reasons....


Paul in romans 14 aproved abstaining from meat if it is being done for the glory of God!

Rom. 14
"Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God"

And

Paul in Timothy called those who commands abstaining from meat doctrines of the devil if the purpose of abstaining meat is because you reject that w/c comes from God because you are thinking that they are not good for you

1 Tim 4
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected .....,
*************************************************

Very simple to understand isn't it?

Abstaining and not abstaining from meat are ok just as long as you do it for God, and not for any other reasons!

Same can be said of marriage

 

[Jacksnyte]

Very good I would say, maybe the ideal combination of yin and yang. Light headed is exactly right and of course thin bordering skinny like many saddhus. This ascetic thing, fasting and so on is all about getting the light head. Whirling dervishes do it. When you get the light head you go inside where it is very interesting. Do you remember that whirling feeling some nights when you were maybe 11 or 12. Feeling a bit nauseous and then bang that oh so colourful dream which possibly had you running for your life then flying then something much nicer. Maybe not but those that do recall these astral moments as they are called would find it much more enlightening now they are a bit older if only they could get back in. Lots claim to do this but that is easy with such occult skills. Learn the right words and there you go. My grandaughter says how can I eat a fish I am a fish, whatever that means. Vegetarian by her choice since she had choice (18 months?). I guess it is genetic. Leonardo da Vinci was, they say Hitler was. Not necessarily nice people then but quite powerful in their chosen way (right and left hand paths? Leonardo designed fighting machines, submarines and planes look what that led to - AH using them). I am not saying you need to stop eating meat to astral travel - but you will be lightheaded for a while before you do. Please dont believe me but here is a simple test to see if it works. Pick a day with fluffy clouds and pick one at random. Then with a silly glazed look on your face probably let it start disintegrating as it moves and after a little while the last wisp will go. Then notice all the other clouds still there. That is your inner self telling you that you can come in (in this little fable anyway). You then go to bed a little more focussed and when you get the first suggestion of lightheadedness maybe like you drank too much but you drank no alcohol for a long while. Well you aren't going to fight it you go with it. yuk. Then you are there. Ok no fluffy clouds where you are, well if you are lucky and it is completely overcast pick a hole for a sunbeam to burst through. Next most importantly is dont tell anyone. If you do it will never happen again. Others will only be unreasonably jealous and annoyed or laugh or declare you insane. It is just a you to you thing. Quite safe too. Alexander's mirror is another good way. Alcohol and drug free (children) and innocent enough (naive perhaps) for the inner self not to distrust and despise you. I think meat eating compromises that but let me know if I am wrong. I cant apologise for being patronising as I have aged because I served so many years being very receptive and polite which can be horrible at times.

I have done quite a bit of scrying, astral travel, and lots of other type of very tiring work, all while eating meat with no problem. The thing is, I am more the warrior-type and need to keep a bit of the "eye of the tiger"(insert Rocky joke here) about me. I have noticed that strict vegetarians tend to lack a certain drive when it comes to certain activities, whereas meat-eaters tend to have more "oomph" to them in nearly all areas.

 

[reve]

Exactly what a predator thinks looking at the deer munching grass. Probably what the butcher thinks when he gets home to find his veggie son smoking it. You will be attracted to other predators you dont want to be a wimpy rabbit or deer. But the fact is when you leave the area we rabbits and deer and the elephant all relax and have such a good time - Glastonbury 1971 comes to mind (2010 the opposite). And that is what I mean about our world getting worse - more predators waging wars. That is their favourite game after hunting and shooting, drinking and evicting the servants from their tied cottages when they finally retire. Siddharta looks distinctly unhealthy to them with their red cheeks and necks and burgers in one hand beer in the other. That is Glastonbury 2010 Pop Festival. Just a few of us were there in 1971, and a tiny few still living at worthy farm into the next year. Lightheaded of course but so nice and heavy drug free. There were a few predators (arrests) but overall it was stress free too. That is the prototype for a paradise of a new world where we dont all work at ridiculous, unproductive occupations making Christmas decorations and umbrellas designed for a single use on a non windy day but spend more time having fun all over the world. Hippies dont really go in for violence or domestic violence, are quite economical to run, eat little meat are quite ecological and can gather together very amicably and self sustainably. Dont riot but put flowers in gun barrels. Why can the world not beciome one huge happy Pop Festival a la 1971? That we would all call heaven, everyone looked after. Our 1971 free food kitchen served life saving muesli and farm milk. But there is always that sick spinning feeling before you drop out, tune in etc. It puts the masses off. We will get a 2011 McDonalds world instead. Which I would call the opposite of a Paradise.

 

[Jacksnyte]

Exactly what a predator thinks looking at the deer munching grass. Probably what the butcher thinks when he gets home to find his veggie son smoking it. You will be attracted to other predators you dont want to be a wimpy rabbit or deer. But the fact is when you leave the area we rabbits and deer and the elephant all relax and have such a good time - Glastonbury 1971 comes to mind (2010 the opposite). And that is what I mean about our world getting worse - more predators waging wars. That is their favourite game after hunting and shooting, drinking and evicting the servants from their tied cottages when they finally retire. Siddharta looks distinctly unhealthy to them with their red cheeks and necks and burgers in one hand beer in the other. That is Glastonbury 2010 Pop Festival. Just a few of us were there in 1971, and a tiny few still living at worthy farm into the next year. Lightheaded of course but so nice and heavy drug free. There were a few predators (arrests) but overall it was stress free too. That is the prototype for a paradise of a new world where we dont all work at ridiculous, unproductive occupations making Christmas decorations and umbrellas designed for a single use on a non windy day but spend more time having fun all over the world. Hippies dont really go in for violence or domestic violence, are quite economical to run, eat little meat are quite ecological and can gather together very amicably and self sustainably. Dont riot but put flowers in gun barrels. Why can the world not beciome one huge happy Pop Festival a la 1971? That we would all call heaven, everyone looked after. Our 1971 free food kitchen served life saving muesli and farm milk. But there is always that sick spinning feeling before you drop out, tune in etc. It puts the masses off. We will get a 2011 McDonalds world instead. Which I would call the opposite of a Paradise.

This does not describe my mindset by a longshot! I guess you haven't read all my posts in this thread. I was talking specifically about my own experience.

 

[reve]

Go on then divert us for a moment and describe. Are you not a warrior in the occult like Don Juan? Do you have a ritual sword of Michael to wield aloft and smite? Maybe a banishing ritual? (evicting the aged tenants). Is there no Crusader or Tempar Knight in there? Or are you a bit timid like me and the other rabbits?