Why I'm Not A "Feminist"

[Riverwolf]

I think he just posted that video has a distraction because he does not like the direction this conversation is taking.

Nah, I doubt that. To be fair, the thread has gotten a wee bit off topic. Granted, I think what we've been talking about is linked enough to the OP that it's fine, but still.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't care to watch 35 minutes of her arguments, and don't have time right now, in any case. Wanna post some highlights?

Take your time. I can't watch it all at once either (ADD, you know).
I don't see eye to eye with her on all things, but hers is an interesting
& considered view.

 

[Riverwolf]

Frankly, judging from what I have seen from feminists here I am inclined to agree with her.

Nobody here that I've talked to thinks that, and no other feminist that I've seen thinks it, either.

 

[Riverwolf]

Now, now....let's be fair to the feminists in RF. Your video is longish, & it's only been up for less
than 2 hours now. (I've only made it half way thru so far.) I expect it to generate thoughtful
responses as more of them weigh in with more than the "no true feminism" reaction.
This gal has an interesting (& long winded) perspective.

And I'm glad she's sharing that perspective, even if I don't really want to watch it right now.

 

[Revoltingest]

In other words, if you don't fight and kill the opponents, or at least violently martyr yourself and others, in order to obtain equal rights and freedoms, you don't deserve them?

I didn't infer that from her video. But men have endured much to advance the rights & liberties of both genders.

Patriarchy is maintained and enforced by both men AND women! EQUALLY! It's a cultural thing; no one person or group of people is solely to blame!

Patriarchy is run by men & women equally?
Wouldn't this by definition be non-patriarchy?
Maybe just "archy"

 

[Riverwolf]

Patriarchy is run by men & women equally?
Wouldn't this by definition be non-patriarchy?

It's not "run" by anyone, because when many modern feminists speak of patriarchy, we're talking about the culture, not the government. It's maintained by both equally; that is, both men and women contribute equally to the problem in their own ways. Think of a full-on patriarchal government and society where the majority of women genuinely believe that they're lesser than men and unfit for rulership, and so themselves shun and outcast any woman who dares declare herself just as fit for a governmental position as any man. In that hypothetical, women are just as responsible for maintaining the patriarchal status quo as the governing men. A contemporary example would be some female celebrity sometime last year (I don't know who; I can't keep up) basically encouraged rape culture by declaring that "all women want their hair pulled, sometimes!"

Now, technically our use of the word "patriarchy" in reference to culture rather than government isn't entirely correct usage of the word, but that's largely due to language-laziness(English is a very bulky language); from what I've seen of more academic feminists, they more specifically refer to "patriarchal values and customs", that is to say, values and customs that are cultural holdovers from when we actually were a full-on political patriarchy. (Example: the still-highly-prevalent notion that men=hard & strong, women=soft & weak). They generally speak of patriarchy in the literal sense when talking about countries that still legally operate under them, such as Japan or Saudi Arabia.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not "run" by anyone, because when many modern feminists speak of patriarchy, we're talking about the culture, not the government. It's maintained by both equally; that is, both men and women contribute equally to the problem in their own ways. Think of a full-on patriarchal government and society where the majority of women genuinely believe that they're lesser than men and unfit for rulership, and so themselves shun and outcast any woman who dares declare herself just as fit for a governmental position as any man. In that hypothetical, women are just as responsible for maintaining the patriarchal status quo as the governing men.

Now, technically our use of the word "patriarchy" in reference to culture rather than government isn't entirely correct usage of the word, but that's largely due to language-laziness(English is a very bulky language); from what I've seen of more academic feminists, they more specifically refer to "patriarchal values and customs", that is to say, values and customs that are cultural holdovers from when we actually were a full-on political patriarchy. (Example: the still-highly-prevalent notion that men=hard & strong, women=soft & weak). They generally speak of patriarchy in the literal sense when talking about countries that still legally operate under them, such as Japan or Saudi Arabia.

Well, men generally are stronger than women, so perhaps a culture that recognizes
this is unavoidable. But the culture can certainly allow weaker men & stronger
women to each take the rolls they wish.
Seeing the power wielded by women on large & small scale (in N Americastan),
to call it "patriarchy" still strikes me as so overly broad as to be meaningless.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well, men generally are stronger than women, so perhaps a culture that recognizes
this is unavoidable.

Physically, men tend to be bigger, yes. But it's honestly a negligible difference.

But the culture can certainly allow weaker men & stronger
women to each take the rolls they wish.
Seeing the power wielded by women on large & small scale (in N Americastan),
to call it "patriarchy" still strikes me as so overly broad as to be meaningless.

The political and economic power still mostly consists of men, and many of the women in power continue to contribute to the problems in their own ways.

Besides, the US government has very little connection with the country as it stands, so what's represented in one isn't necessarily represented in the other. Sure, there might be a fair amount of women in political positions, but the real powers of the US are the megacorporations; how many of them have women CEOs or on their top boards?

Or, once again, let's look at my gamer culture. I can name many male game designers:

Shigeru Miyamoto
Satoshi Tajiri
Ron Gilbert
Tim Scafer
Sid Meier
Will Wright
Hironobu Sakaguchi
Hideo Kojima
John Carmack
John Romero
Jonathan Blow
Markus "Notch" Persson
Lord British

But when it comes to female game designers...

Roberta Williams
...
...
Roberta Williams

And despite being a major pioneer in the Adventure genre of gaming, and having incredible technical knowledge making her games look and sound way ahead of their time... sorry, but her games generally SUCK!

Obviously, there's other female game designers, but I just mean off the top of my head. That has been changing in recent years, but there's still a long way to go.

The Let's Play community is also a major aspect of the modern gaming community, and I only know of one female Let's Player (PushingUpRoses) as opposed to several male Let's Players, and even she's not terribly well-known(only ~25,000 subscribers). ...okay, there's Suzy from Game Grumps, but she's just one girl among a company of guys, and she doesn't really participate in the video/computer gaming a whole lot; she's most prominent in their Table Flip series on board games.

This is generally why I focus in on culture rather than politics. Power here is independent of the government, and has more to do with representation in content creation, artist variation, and publishing companies. Men almost have a monopoly here.

Of course, it is a good question of whether or not "patriarchy" can be accurately applied to this. (Might actually be a good idea to talk it over with RF's feminists in our forum.) I would argue it does, because IMO power comes first from clout, not job description. ... okay, the people with the most power are the ones with the most money, yes, but clout is next in importance. My subculture doesn't really have many women with clout, largely because it's been regarded as an "all-boys club" until relatively recently, and sort of slid back into being thought of as one during much of the last generation. Therefore, the ones who "guide" the culture, i.e., content creators, artists, and publishers, are almost all men: hence, patriarchy. It's not intentional, but gamer culture in recent years hasn't really made it easy to be a female participant, let alone a female game designer.

Thing is, it's getting better.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Oh yes they are just as equally good as a woman in nurturing a child. I should know, my ex-husband is playing with our kids right in front of me. And he is one of the most loving and nurturing men I know.

Men not only can be nurturing, men are nurturing. Nature does dictate that men are not nurturing. Society imposes that standard upon men. And some men just keep blindly obeying that assigned role without even questioning why.

Society cannot be blamed for what we are innately. Your man does not represent all

 

[Robert.Evans]

No. Women can, and should, represent themselves.



That is, on the marriage bed.



Because they won't always agree.

I know of a long-time married couple that certainly has different political opinions, and so almost certainly vote differently. They're still together, and their relationship is in absolutely NO danger.



Marriage is not needed for a person to be happy and whole.

You sound as if you don't believe in God, which is strange on a religious forum. Thus your comments are your own

 

[Robert.Evans]

What makes you think a person can't be in favor of both equally?

because they say they are feminists!

 

[Robert.Evans]

Careful, because you mentioned the word "men", this post is going to be seen as male-bashing.

In spite of the fact that you insist that men are just as good as caregivers as women.

Mark my words.

her words are not honest. I don't see working class men with great nurturing skills. That is reality. Some might have, but too many don't.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Women are the ones your arguments attack, not men. Why defend what's not attacked?

my arguments attack no one. I address the balance

 

[Robert.Evans]

Men and women are both humans.

The tool analogy would be like different high-quality brands of hammer, but still both high-quality hammers.

That would mean that men and women were the same, which they are not. That is why they are called men and women

 

[Robert.Evans]

By the definition of the first feminist movement, maybe.

But we don't follow that movement. Modern feminism is its own thing, and does focus on male issues, as well. The reason is because we've since come to the realization that the problems that men face all stem from the exact same place that causes all the problems women have to face: a patriarchal culture.

then it can't be feminism, by definition. So call it something else, and start talking about people and defending such, which you are not doing. You are defending women

 

[Robert.Evans]

I'm not in any way subject to your God's commandments, any more than you're subject to the rules of my King.

A curse upon the name of Caesar!

yes you are

 

[Robert.Evans]

Why does having a ***** make someone ill-suited to a nurturing role?

why do you have to be rude? What does that add. You are completely ignoring the different traits of men and women if you say men are just as good as women at nurturing. I am not going to continue arguing this, it is a known fact, in writings and life...why you ignore it I don't know

 

[Robert.Evans]

Since the OP was an perfect example of building a strawman, I would that video is perfectly in line with the OP.

back up your words

 

[Robert.Evans]

Feminism is about power and money, greed orientated, always has been, even if it is defining itself more now. Men following it are only protecting their own women, thus themselves. It is an adulteration and idol and greed stemming from insecurity

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

why do you have to be rude? What does that add. You are completely ignoring the different traits of men and women if you say men are just as good as women at nurturing. I am not going to continue arguing this, it is a known fact, in writings and life...why you ignore it I don't know

How exactly was that rude? It's a simple question. I guess if someone asks a question you can't answer, it automatically becomes "rude"...huh?