Why is Christianity dictated by the Church?

[sojourner]

I am not arguing against human authority being exercised in the local church...if and when it is subject to Christ as the head. The scriptures always portray biblical or godly leadership as being submitted to the Lord, rather than self-seeking and serving others rather than seeking power. If you take a look at the actions of those leaders of organizations or churches which claim to be exclusively, "the true church'' or the way to God, you will see time and again that it is about exalting the leader or organization's power and control over the lives of others rather than leading people to Christ alone.

I don't want decentralized religion. What I want is a one on one relationship with Christ and fellowship with like-minded believers who look to Christ.

But that's not what either the church is, or what relationship is to be like. Christ dwells where two or three are gathered -- not where one stands alone, because Christ is found in the relationship between people. The church is about relationship -- not power. That's why one comes to Christ through the church -- not in spite of it. Christ is the church, because the church is relationship.

 

[sojourner]

I don't disregard the gospels, epistles, or the biblical instructions of Paul concerning the existence of or the running of the local church at all. I'm just saying that I believe the "church" is the body of Christ composed of all believers in Jesus Christ everywhere. It is not a certain group or organization which claims to be exclusively "the only true church".

Any yet, it is a certain group or organization, just as the body is a certain group of cells that have a certain organization.

 

[sojourner]

Matthew 16:16-18(NKJV)


16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.




I will build My ekklesia -Ekklesia (pronounced ek-klay-see'-ah) is The Greek word used in the Bible for church, which actually means “assembly” or literally “called out ones.” It is made up of the two Greek words, EK—“out of,” and KALEO—“shall be called.”




Acts 7:45-50 (NKJV)


45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David, 46who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built Him a house.
48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’[a]

What does any of this have to do with the authority of the church to make decisions regarding its disposition?

 

[Shiranui117]

I feel its this way because seriously speaking, Jesus didn't come to make a new religion nor break the laws and customs practiced but fulfilled them. After his death and ascension many people started to call themselves "Christians" or even "Messianics".

My point is ever since a new religion was formed "Christianity" the church took power.

The Church didn't just "take power." The Church is the vehicle by which we learn the faith handed down by Christ to the Apostles, and the way in which we come to a relationship with Christ. Christ Himself established the Church, and gave His apostles the authority to lead, teach and defend it.

The church changed many things like i.e instead of Saturday being the holy day it was changed to Sunday because Jesus resurrected on this day.

You have to understand, most Christians are Gentiles. We are not beholden to the Mosaic Law. We only keep the commandments of the Old Law that Christ Himself instructed us to keep.

Also keep in mind that, in the beginning, Christians did worship at the synagogues on Saturday, and learn the Old Testament Scripture there. And then on Sunday, they would gather together to celebrate the Eucharist; in other words, to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ. After the Jews kicked the Christians out, however, we moved the whole thing to Sunday, and thus to this very day you have the twofold part of the Divine Liturgy: The Liturgy of the Word, and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Secondly, the practiced Jewish holidays e.g Passover. Where in the Bible does it say Saturday to Sunday was to be changed?

It was "changed" due to logistical circumstances. Saturday for many Christians is still a day of rest (just look at the modern weekend), and we honor God not just on the Sabbath, but throughout the week. The Resurrection of Christ, however, is far more important, for by it we have the hope of resurrection and new life with God.

Also, as I'm going to say in a bit, the Jewish Passover is the prototype of Christ's Pascha. With the Jewish Passover, God led Israel out of slavery in Egypt, and to the Promised Land. With Pascha, Christ destroyed death, conquered sin, and we are now able to follow Him from slavery to sin and death, to the promised inheritance and life with God in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I do know Jesus healed and worked on Saturday, but doesn't changing it break the 10 commandments?

Christ laid in the tomb on a Saturday, thus resting on the Sabbath, before He rose from the dead on Sunday. However, as Christ said, there is no excuse not to do good on the Sabbath, and because of this, many Christians decide to work on the Sabbath. In doing so, they seek to give glory to God through their labor.

Or even where in the Bible does it say Easter our Christian holiday is to be celebrated?

I understand its from Jesus' last week but why are we celebrating new things?

Christians celebrate Christ's Resurrection weekly, every Sunday. However, when it comes to the anniversary of His Resurrection, doesn't it make sense to celebrate it with even more gusto? It may not be explicitly stated in the Bible, but it was an organic development within the Christian life.

And frankly, we're celebrating "new things" because new things have happened that have a significant bearing on our salvation. The Jewish Passover was a prototype of Christ's Pascha. The Jewish Pentecost is a forerunner of the Christian Pentecost. Christmas is the celebration of the incarnation of the Son of God, beginning the process of uniting our human nature to His Divine Nature, and the reconciliation of God to man.

Again, the trinity it is from the church why do we follow this?

The Trinity has its roots in the Bible, and it was expressed by the earliest Christians. We believe it because it's part of the faith of the Apostles, and it's the same faith that was handed down to their students, and to the students of the students of the Apostles, down through the ages to this day.

My point is why doesn't the Church stick to what the Bible says instead of fully transforming and creating new rules of its own?

Christians preserved the faith handed down to them by Christ for more than 300 years before the New Testament was codified. The Church canonized the Bible, including those books used by all churches in the Liturgy. I think you need to gain an appreciation of the fact that Holy Tradition does not contradict Holy Scripture. Rather, Holy Tradition is the living, breathing faith and life of Christ's Church, of which Scripture is a part.

What do you think?

Looking at your religion, I really have to ask, are you Eastern/Oriental Orthodox? Or are you one of those types that call yourself "orthodox Christian" because it sounds more legit? This is a serious and honest question, and there is no offense intended.

 

[somethingNiftyhere]

What does any of this have to do with the authority of the church to make decisions regarding its disposition?

I can understand why you'd ask that.

Suffice to say it goes along with what I posted initially. In essence, churches are man's creation. Not ordained by God or Jesus.

 

[Shiranui117]

It's the ultimate power trip. To install ones self as the absolute authority and divinely appointed emmisary between humanity and God.

Which is exactly why we Orthodox balk at the development of the Roman Papacy. You have that completely right.

At one time it was a death penalty offense to own a Bible. Peasants were illiterate so they had to abide by what they were told was god's word. The church and the crown worked in concert and very often the church had more power than the crown because it governed the souls of the people who were the subjects of God's anointed sovereign representative on earth.

In Orthodox lands, the peasants that could read were more than happy to read their own copy of the Bible, and the Church was more than happy to promote a good understanding and living-out of the faith among the laity. In fact, during the time of the Ecumenical Councils (i.e. the first thousand years of the Church, a time with which far too Christians are acquainted), there is a story of St. Gregory of Nyssa visiting Constantinople during the time of the Second Ecumenical Council:

"If you ask someone to give you change, he philosophizes about the Begotten and the Unbegotten; if you inquire about the price of a loaf, you are told by way of reply that the Father is greater and the Son inferior; if you ask 'Is my bath ready?' the attendant answers that the Son was made out of nothing."

So no, the Christian laity were by no means forbidden from thinking about their faith.

In truth all people who believe in God and Jesus are the church. All faithful as one body in Christ. (Christos-annointed)

But you cannot have Christians with contradictory ideas about the Faith within the same Church. In fact, we are exhorted over and over to "be of one mind."

2 Corinthians 3:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Become complete. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Philippians 2:2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1 Peter 3:8 Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous

And, last but not least...

Jude 1:3Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

There is ONE faith that was delivered once unto all the Saints. If we do not have the same faith which Christ handed down to the Apostles, if we have false ideas about Who God is, Who Christ is, what the Church is, what the Sacraments are, why Christ did what He did for us, and how we as Christians respond to that, we cannot hope to live proper Christian lives. What we believe impacts how we live our faith. You must recognize that.


Even that much was let through to appear in the scripture.

Romans 12:5

So we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

We are only one body in Christ if we have the same faith in Christ. And yes, the details matter.

It's a bit worse than that, even. The Roman Catholic Church decided which books to include in the Bible!

Keep in mind that the Roman Catholic Church did not exist in its current incarnation until 1054.

I find it sad that the Catholic Church has everyone thinking that the Church was monarchic and power-hungry from the beginning, or that the Church and State always worked hand-in-glove to ensure that the laity remained ignorant. That is not the case. It's like everyone forgets that the Churches at Antioch, Jerusalem, Corinth, Ephesus, Caesarea and Philippi existed. They did not go along with the innovations of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome is the only one of the churches listed in the New Testament that is not Orthodox today.

 

[Shiranui117]

I can understand why you'd ask that.

Suffice to say it goes along with what I posted initially. In essence, churches are man's creation. Not ordained by God or Jesus.

Where do you draw this from? Christ talks very explicitly about the Church.

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Moreover, don't forget the entire Book of Acts. But, what do you make of the Book of Acts? Is it a forgery written to legitimize a corrupt, man-made institution? Did the Apostles drive Christianity into the ground from the very beginning by organizing the Church from Pentecost onward?

 

[somethingNiftyhere]

Which is exactly why we Orthodox balk at the development of the Roman Papacy. You have that completely right.


In Orthodox lands, the peasants that could read were more than happy to read their own copy of the Bible, and the Church was more than happy to promote a good understanding and living-out of the faith among the laity. In fact, during the time of the Ecumenical Councils (i.e. the first thousand years of the Church, a time with which far too Christians are acquainted), there is a story of St. Gregory of Nyssa visiting Constantinople during the time of the Second Ecumenical Council:

"If you ask someone to give you change, he philosophizes about the Begotten and the Unbegotten; if you inquire about the price of a loaf, you are told by way of reply that the Father is greater and the Son inferior; if you ask 'Is my bath ready?' the attendant answers that the Son was made out of nothing."

So no, the Christian laity were by no means forbidden from thinking about their faith.


But you cannot have Christians with contradictory ideas about the Faith within the same Church. In fact, we are exhorted over and over to "be of one mind."

2 Corinthians 3:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Become complete. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Philippians 2:2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1 Peter 3:8 Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous

And, last but not least...

Jude 1:3Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

There is ONE faith that was delivered once unto all the Saints. If we do not have the same faith which Christ handed down to the Apostles, if we have false ideas about Who God is, Who Christ is, what the Church is, what the Sacraments are, why Christ did what He did for us, and how we as Christians respond to that, we cannot hope to live proper Christian lives. What we believe impacts how we live our faith. You must recognize that.


Even that much was let through to appear in the scripture.



We are only one body in Christ if we have the same faith in Christ. And yes, the details matter.


Keep in mind that the Roman Catholic Church did not exist in its current incarnation until 1054.

I find it sad that the Catholic Church has everyone thinking that the Church was monarchic and power-hungry from the beginning, or that the Church and State always worked hand-in-glove to ensure that the laity remained ignorant. That is not the case. It's like everyone forgets that the Churches at Antioch, Jerusalem, Corinth, Ephesus, Caesarea and Philippi existed. They did not go along with the innovations of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome is the only one of the churches listed in the New Testament that is not Orthodox today.

I agree that the dictatorial image of the Catholic church today leads one to believe it was always thus. So I thank you for clearing that up with the remarks about the prior history to that of 1054.

Bible Possession Once Banned by the Catholic Church!

ITEM #1 POPE INNOCENT III
Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:

As for the "one mind", as we can see in modern Christianity with the sectarian division that fractures the body of Christ, it is impossible to achieve one mind regarding temporal things like the spirits of God and Jesus.

The details matter enough to accomplish that division.
Whereas one mind in scripture didn't mean to refer to everyone thinking the same exact way about Jesus ministry. He was God after all. Who better to know the human intellect and ego than he? And as such he would know one accord about spiritual matters would never be reached.

The essence of Christ's message the truth of his ministry and being was the single minded accord he was speaking of and to.

Matthew 22:34-40 (NIV)


The Greatest Commandment

34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


Jesus spoke about the authorities in the temple.

Luke 20:45 While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples,Luke 20:46 "Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.

If he spoke against the pride, vanity and ego of power vested in the Temple why would he bring a new testament that authored pride, vanity and ego to build itself a church?

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

 

[somethingNiftyhere]

Where in those scriptures do you read Jesus "explicitly" talking about the church as is traditionally imagined to be? I.E. a building wherein believers convene.

The faithful flock of Jesus are the church. One Jesus one message. One Messiah. One deliverer. One God. One community dedicated to the one in gnosis/knowledge of God and the Messiah.
1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.


However, Jesus had other flocks as well.
So that in itself denotes Jesus not advocating one church to contain his truth when his message was known by other flocks than those whom he ministered to and as that what became Bible scripture. So would Jesus then 'explicitly" be foreseeing sectarianism, if he was explicitly ordaining churches be erected in the name of his ministry?

John 10:16
And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Where do you draw this from? Christ talks very explicitly about the Church.

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Moreover, don't forget the entire Book of Acts. But, what do you make of the Book of Acts? Is it a forgery written to legitimize a corrupt, man-made institution? Did the Apostles drive Christianity into the ground from the very beginning by organizing the Church from Pentecost onward?

 

[sojourner]

I can understand why you'd ask that.

Suffice to say it goes along with what I posted initially. In essence, churches are man's creation. Not ordained by God or Jesus.

You'll have to define what you mean by "churches." AFAIK, there's only one church that appears in many places. It is the assembly of those who follow Jesus. I'd have to say that God and Jesus certainly did give that church the stamp of approval at Pentecost.

 

[somethingNiftyhere]

In short I would say "church" is the body of the Christian community itself. Those for whom the message of Jesus speaks uniquely and collectively with regard to salvation, grace, the disposition of sin, the afterlife, and the two great commandments.

Whereas there is nothing in Jesus message that says what amounts to what many defend as the church construct as that of a building wherein denominations commune and praise the God they believe requires that edifice in order to find his praise aptly delivered by the penitent and the devout.

 

[sojourner]

Where in those scriptures do you read Jesus "explicitly" talking about the church as is traditionally imagined to be? I.E. a building wherein believers convene.

The faithful flock of Jesus are the church. One Jesus one message. One Messiah. One deliverer. One God. One community dedicated to the one in gnosis/knowledge of God and the Messiah.
1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.


However, Jesus had other flocks as well.
So that in itself denotes Jesus not advocating one church to contain his truth when his message was known by other flocks than those whom he ministered to and as that what became Bible scripture. So would Jesus then 'explicitly" be foreseeing sectarianism, if he was explicitly ordaining churches be erected in the name of his ministry?

John 10:16
And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

I don't think anyone but you is imagining the church to be "a building wherein believers convene." You seem to specifically have a problem with the Roman church. From your posts and the texts you're using to support your arguments, I'd have to say it appears as though your exegesis of those texts, as well as your understanding of the composition and self-understanding of the Roman church are not up to the task here.

 

[sojourner]

In short I would say "church" is the body of the Christian community itself. Those for whom the message of Jesus speaks uniquely and collectively with regard to salvation, grace, the disposition of sin, the afterlife, and the two great commandments.

Whereas there is nothing in Jesus message that says what amounts to what many defend as the church construct as that of a building wherein denominations commune and praise the God they believe requires that edifice in order to find his praise aptly delivered by the penitent and the devout.

No one here is arguing that position, though. You've succeeded in creating a straw man, which you've knocked down. Congrats!

 

[Dinami]

It's a bit worse than that, even. The Roman Catholic Church decided which books to include in the Bible!

That is true, thats the other part I missed

 

[somethingNiftyhere]

I don't think anyone but you is imagining the church to be "a building wherein believers convene." You seem to specifically have a problem with the Roman church. From your posts and the texts you're using to support your arguments, I'd have to say it appears as though your exegesis of those texts, as well as your understanding of the composition and self-understanding of the Roman church are not up to the task here.

Well perhaps that's because your reading into my statements what you want to see there so you can attack my position.

Thank you. God love ya. Jesus peace be with you. :hug:

 

[Shermana]

If the church is the entire body of all Christians who say they believe in Christ, why are the Epistles and Revelation so adamantly against what they consider heretical sects like the Nicolations? Why does 1 John say that those who say they know Christ but refuse to obey the commandments are "liars"? Why does Jude offer a fierce rebuke against "Those who turn grace into a license for immorality"? (That would include anyone who thinks they can sin thinking Jesus will just forgive them for it so it's okay).

As Shiraniu brought up, apparently the "church" is in fact meant to have one mindset and one set of beliefs and to not deviate from them. Who are the "Divisive" men that the (dubious) Epistle to Timothy refers to that the Church is to avoid? Isn't practically everyone in the early Church history divisive in one way or another?

And we see that the Biblical use of the word "Christian" applies to the Petrine Nazarene Torah-obedient Jews in Antioch. Apparently the "Orthodox" Church is not exactly quite like these Biblically-defined original Christians. Quite a bit of deviation there. Was this "one mindset" meant to include a total, extreme change from the original one?

Also, the word "Church" doesn't necessarily just mean "Assembly", it is literally "out-calleds", which means more or less "Chosen ones". It CAN be used as "assembly" but more in the terms of "The elect assembly", not just any old assembly of anyone who claims to be Christian, but the actually Chosen ones, the choice elite so to speak. We do see Jesus saying "Many are called but few are chosen...."

So who are the called and who are the chosen?

 

[Dinami]

Looking at your religion, I really have to ask, are you Eastern/Oriental Orthodox? Or are you one of those types that call yourself "orthodox Christian" because it sounds more legit? This is a serious and honest question, and there is no offense intended.

I understand all what you said, I just feel that these days with all these denominations they all have their mind of their own.

No no, im not an " Eastern Orthodox Christian" because it sounds legit lol Even though I was born and raised in a strict Syrian Orthodox Christian family all my life. But calling myself an "Orthodox Christian" is not enough, I have studied the bible constantly I do try to follow what is told, i'm not one of these hypocrites who call themselves "Christian" and live a life with no Christian morality. However, it is typical you will ask questions as you read and study and that is why I asked this question

 

[somethingNiftyhere]

Perhaps the author of 1st John, who presumably an eyewitness to Jesus during his ministry (1 John 1:1-4) , aligning with what I have said before. And you reiterate now.
So adamantly against heretical sects...
Wherein the community of body of Christ is then breaking off into different parts of itself holding one as outside of, above, different, etc... from the others.
Like the scriptures relate of the body of the faithful in Christ. 1Corinthians 12:1-28

1 Corinthians 10:17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.


And from the "One Mind" link.

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect [katartizo], be of good comfort, be of one mind [to auto phroneo], live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

If the church is the entire body of all Christians who say they believe in Christ, why are the Epistles and Revelation so adamantly against what they consider heretical sects like the Nicolations? Why does 1 John say that those who say they know Christ but refuse to obey the commandments are "liars"? Why does Jude offer a fierce rebuke against "Those who turn grace into a license for immorality"? (That would include anyone who thinks they can sin thinking Jesus will just forgive them for it so it's okay).

As Shiraniu brought up, apparently the "church" is in fact meant to have one mindset and one set of beliefs and to not deviate from them. Who are the "Divisive" men that the (dubious) Epistle to Timothy refers to that the Church is to avoid? Isn't practically everyone in the early Church history divisive in one way or another?

And we see that the Biblical use of the word "Christian" applies to the Petrine Nazarene Torah-obedient Jews in Antioch. Apparently the "Orthodox" Church is not exactly quite like these Biblically-defined original Christians. Quite a bit of deviation there. Was this "one mindset" meant to include a total, extreme change from the original one?

Also, the word "Church" doesn't necessarily just mean "Assembly", it is literally "out-calleds", which means more or less "Chosen ones". It CAN be used as "assembly" but more in the terms of "The elect assembly", not just any old assembly of anyone who claims to be Christian, but the actually Chosen ones, the choice elite so to speak. We do see Jesus saying "Many are called but few are chosen...."

So who are the called and who are the chosen?

Yes, the former reply wherein I shared the link to the Greek translation for church applies there.

And the believers are the so called outcalled. Christianity was a mystery tradition, a gnosis tradition in essence. Which is why Jesus said he spoke in Parables and only in Parables. So that not all would understand.

Perhaps then those who are not the chosen are those who are sectarian and attend church believing in their Bibles and thinking that is where the truth of God lives.


"No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began." (1 Corinthians 2:7)


"So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God." (1 Corinthians 4:1)

"It [the dead body] is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44)

"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." (1 Corinthians 15:50)


"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin - because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus." (Romans 6:3-11)

 

[Shermana]

Sure enough, James the Just was called "Jacob the Gnostic" in the Talmud...just sayin'....

 

[sojourner]

Well perhaps that's because your reading into my statements what you want to see there so you can attack my position.

Thank you. God love ya. Jesus peace be with you. :hug:

I'm simply reading the texts you provide to support your position, and they don't seem to do so, unless they're tortured into some new meaning that's inconsistent with principles of interpretation.