Why is Christ's sacrifice needed?

[Hockeycowboy]

And yes, the acts of the father will affect the offsprings, however we don't believe that a sin is something that can be inherited..if you has committed a sin, it is your problem and you are responsible for it, not your innocent child!

Yes, I agree that "a sin", as in a particular one, cannot be inherited....but our condition, that of imperfection, is inherited by all. Otherwise, we would be living forever. As self-aware, intelligent creatures, humans were designed to live forever. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

Why Was Isaac Newton Such A Jerk?

Isaac Newton's occult studies - Wikipedia

Yes, I just got through reading it. Thanks for the link.

I don't agree with everything the writer said. With regard to Newton not sharing his religious writings....he did not invite many others to help, because he was heretic. If he had shared with the wrong person, it could have cost him his life. Yet the writer of this article fails to mention that! For that reason (and others), it seems to me the article's author has some kind of bias against Newton.

And Asberger's Syndrome could have played a part in his occasional odd behavior.

I saw in one link where he had someone purposely killed...i plan on researching that.

Thanks again for the information.

 

[sayak83]

Yes, I agree that "a sin", as in a particular one, cannot be inherited....but our condition, that of imperfection, is inherited by all. Otherwise, we would be living forever. As self-aware, intelligent creatures, humans were designed to live forever. - Ecclesiastes 3:19


Yes, I just got through reading it. Thanks for the link.

I don't agree with everything the writer said. With regard to Newton not sharing his religious writings....he did not invite many others to help, because he was heretic. If he had shared with the wrong person, it could have cost him his life. Yet the writer of this article fails to mention that! For that reason (and others), it seems to me the article's author has some kind of bias against Newton.

And Asberger's Syndrome could have played a part in his occasional odd behavior.

I saw in one link where he had someone purposely killed...i plan on researching that.

Thanks again for the information.

The point I am making is that we scientist types put authority on the soundness of the arguments and substance of the evidence presented for a claim, and do not put authority on to any person or being. So appeals to authority, even from a God, will have no effect..let alone Newton.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Its in multiple translations

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I cant read the thous and thows.

They must Not eat from the tree.

The verse you quoted is a consequence to a thought or action.

Example: if I let my sister eat from the cake, least I put it in the fridge so she can have a peace, she shall surely become sick.

So, I will not let my sister eat the cake or she shall surely die.

The reason they were left ignorant (unknowing) is that god felt it was in their best interest to not know morality as he, god, knows it. If god gave his children the knowledge to eat from the tree of life they would surely be like god. God is jeleous. No one is his equal.

Have you heard the saying: what you dont know doesnt kill you; or hear no evil, say no evil?

Same concept. Ignorance is bliss.

If adam and eve ate from the tree of life, Then they would know good and evil.

After knowing morality as god knows it, if they disobeyed, then, the punishment fits the "crime."

Eternal seperation from ignorance is not equal. Where in scripture does it say adam and eve knew morality without first eating the tree of life?

Well it's evidence Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree of Life.
So it's evidence that Adam and Eve didn't have eternal life, Since Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree of Life.

Seeing the animals didn't have eternal life, So the animals must haved died at some point, So Adam and Eve were a customer to seeing death and knowing what it is to die.

If you know and understand what dieing is and what death, do you still need to have what dieing and death is.
After seeing animals dieing.

I think you would be very aware what dieing and death is.

So I don't think you would need explain to you what it is to die and death is.

Heck upon my first time of seeing animal dead or relative dead, I knew right then what dieing and death was, I didn't need dieing or death explain.
So in like manner after Adam and Eve seeing a dead animals, I don't think they would need it explained what dieing and death is.

So it would be very obvious what it means to die what death is.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Someone posted a thread about Jesus' sacrifice being, in their view, the "biggest problem of Christianity".
I thought I'd reply with a thread containing a link that helps to explain it.

No one can grasp the reason behind Jesus' sacrifice, without first recognizing the position that Adam, as our forefather, put all of us in: growing old, getting sick, and then dying. (This was not God's purpose for mankind.) We inherited sin from Adam and Eve. And 'sin leads to death.' --Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23

Keeping this in mind, here's a link providing information to think about:

Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The Ten commandments say we carry out ancestors guilt to the third and fourth generation. Others like you say it's all the way back to Adam. Why should we be guilty of anything more than our own immorality, since those are the only ones that we can repent for--as Jesus and John the Baptist both taught was the only path for salvation. No person or animal can die as a substitute for our repentance. Washed in the blood, it's an irrational, pagan and actually a disgusting theology, as is the Pauline ritual of the Lord's Supper. The Didache, the Apostles' "handbook", says nothing about such ritual cannibalism, symbolic or otherwise.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well it's evidence Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree of Life.
So it's evidence that Adam and Eve didn't have eternal life, Since Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree of Life.

Seeing the animals didn't have eternal life, So the animals must haved died at some point, So Adam and Eve were a customer to seeing death and knowing what it is to die.

If you know and understand what dieing is and what death, do you still need to have what dieing and death is.
After seeing animals dieing.

I think you would be very aware what dieing and death is.

So I don't think you would need explain to you what it is to die and death is.

Heck upon my first time of seeing animal dead or relative dead, I knew right then what dieing and death was, I didn't need dieing or death explain.
So in like manner after Adam and Eve seeing a dead animals, I don't think they would need it explained what dieing and death is.

So it would be very obvious what it means to die what death is.

I understand mortality a lot in these past five years. The focus is on adam and eve knowing without eating from the tree of knowledge. Since they did not eat from the tree, they would not know what death is (like we do). Hence, they are by definition ignorant of that particular knowledge of mortality withheld from them.

As a result, when they took from the other tree they werent supposed to touch, when god said they would die they dont know what dying means. There was no inherit sin for them to understand that for themselves. They were child minded.

We only knpw good and bad when our parents and loved ones teach us as we get older. We dont know as infants without our loved ones. Same as adam and eve. Their parent did not teach them what good means and what bad means. He just said "dont touch here is the consequence" and thats it.

Children learn to obey when they arent given reasons for their actions. So they repeat because they arent told how their actions affect themselves and other people; they dont know. Thei "crime" is based on ignorance. Why blame the child for his ignorance and not put focus on the parent who should give that knowledge from the getgo.

You cant be held accountable for something you did not know was wrong. You have to at least know what the commands mean in order to "break" the rules. If not, man has a better parenting system than god. Parents dont ideally kill their children for their childs actions. Ideal parents usually work with their children and their punishments. Correction comes with knowledge not isolated commands.

Totally different worldview

 

[Prestor John]

Someone posted a thread about Jesus' sacrifice being, in their view, the "biggest problem of Christianity".
I thought I'd reply with a thread containing a link that helps to explain it.

No one can grasp the reason behind Jesus' sacrifice, without first recognizing the position that Adam, as our forefather, put all of us in: growing old, getting sick, and then dying. (This was not God's purpose for mankind.) We inherited sin from Adam and Eve. And 'sin leads to death.' --Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23

Keeping this in mind, here's a link providing information to think about:

Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I believe that the condition of mortality were part of God's Plan all along.

Adam and Eve made the right choice, for none of us could become more like God and His Son without first obtaining a Knowledge of Good and Evil.

It would have been unlawful for God to force the conditions of mortality on Adam and Eve, so He left the choice to them.

 

[sayak83]

I believe that the condition of mortality were part of God's Plan all along.

Adam and Eve made the right choice, for none of us could become more like God and His Son without first obtaining a Knowledge of Good and Evil.

It would have been unlawful for God to force the conditions of mortality on Adam and Eve, so He left the choice to them.

So Paul was wrong in the Romans?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If you get really deep, the first sin performed is the lie "If you eat from this you will die". But that wasn't man sinning.

True.

Interestingly, I guess this means Lewis held that view of the atonement.

The story's overrated anyway.

I don't agree with everything the writer said. With regard to Newton not sharing his religious writings....he did not invite many others to help, because he was heretic. If he had shared with the wrong person, it could have cost him his life.

If he's a heretic, why use him as an example of how to view the bible?

 

[Faithofchristian]

I understand mortality a lot in these past five years. The focus is on adam and eve knowing without eating from the tree of knowledge. Since they did not eat from the tree, they would not know what death is (like we do). Hence, they are by definition ignorant of that particular knowledge of mortality withheld from them.

As a result, when they took from the other tree they werent supposed to touch, when god said they would die they dont know what dying means. There was no inherit sin for them to understand that for themselves. They were child minded.

We only knpw good and bad when our parents and loved ones teach us as we get older. We dont know as infants without our loved ones. Same as adam and eve. Their parent did not teach them what good means and what bad means. He just said "dont touch here is the consequence" and thats it.

Children learn to obey when they arent given reasons for their actions. So they repeat because they arent told how their actions affect themselves and other people; they dont know. Thei "crime" is based on ignorance. Why blame the child for his ignorance and not put focus on the parent who should give that knowledge from the getgo.

You cant be held accountable for something you did not know was wrong. You have to at least know what the commands mean in order to "break" the rules. If not, man has a better parenting system than god. Parents dont ideally kill their children for their childs actions. Ideal parents usually work with their children and their punishments. Correction comes with knowledge not isolated commands.

Totally different worldview

Look Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree of Life, So they didn't have eternal life.

That's why God place the Cherubim's with a sword to guard the tree of Life, To keep Adam and Eve from eating of the tree of Life.
So Adam and Eve did not have eternal life.
Genesis 3:24.

The animals didn't have eternal life either.

So when animals would die, Adam and Eve understood perfectly well, what it meant to die and what death was.

So you can not say that Adam and Eve did not know what dieing and death ment.

Adam and Eve understood perfectly well what dieing and death ment.
When they saw animals die.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The point I am making is that we scientist types put authority on the soundness of the arguments and substance of the evidence presented for a claim, and do not put authority on to any person or being. So appeals to authority, even from a God, will have no effect..let alone Newton.

I certainly don't agree with that assessment! It should be based on the quality of the evidence, alone. But many times, we hear, 'Well, that person doesn't have a PhD', or, 'This one does.' Or, "He isn't peer-reviewed", an argumentum ad populum.

Like the complex and function-oriented information systems found in the cell: when ID is claimed, y'all call that "an argument from incredulity", when in fact it's an "argument from experience and knowledge" founded on observation....whenever any evidence communicating complex information is discovered, any other field of science credits an intelligent source....except biology.

So unfortunately I have to disagree.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If you get really deep, the first sin performed is the lie "If you eat from this you will die". But that wasn't man sinning.

But they did die. Are you saying Adam and Eve didn't die?

 

[Ralphg]

Jezus Christ was crusified because he was the ‘TOP-mesmerisr’ of his generation but he wasn’t able to defeat the ‘TOP’-magnetizer in a ‘Magnetization-battle’. He was therefore crusified and left behind. In theory that was the moment he could have escaped. If he did escape?... Well,...we will never know for sure....

 

[sayak83]

I certainly don't agree with that assessment! It should be based on the quality of the evidence, alone. But many times, we hear, 'Well, that person doesn't have a PhD', or, 'This one does.' Or, "He isn't peer-reviewed", an argumentum ad populum.

Like the complex and function-oriented information systems found in the cell: when ID is claimed, y'all call that "an argument from incredulity", when in fact it's an "argument from experience and knowledge" founded on observation....whenever any evidence communicating complex information is discovered, any other field of science credits an intelligent source....except biology.

So unfortunately I have to disagree.

You have difficulty understanding and analyzing the evidence that clearly shows the evolutionary origins of biological structure. I do not. That is why, with 99% of all scientists, I have determined for myself through reading the evidence beyond reasonable doubt that evolution is responsible for the myriad biological life forms on earth. If you believe differently based on some lack of comprehension on your part, what is that to me?

 

[Ralphg]

But they did die. Are you saying Adam and Eve didn't die?

Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds??

Adam = Mesmerism
Eve = Magnetization

‘The Child’ = UNKNOWN (...no wait, nowadays we know...it’s AURA...you can take pictures of it ..)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

So when animals would die, Adam and Eve understood perfectly well, what it meant to die and what death was.

So you can not say that Adam and Eve did not know what dieing and death ment.

Adam and Eve understood perfectly well what dieing and death ment.
When they saw animals die.

That's right!

We may not agree on everything, but sometimes we do.

This, to me, is more evidence that the 6th Creative Day was longer than one literal day. Because Adam was created, more animals being created, and he was given the commission to name the animals, then got lonely and God created Eve for him.....plus, to know what death was because of seeing the animals die over time.....that 6th Day was long, so the others could have been, too.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You have difficulty understanding and analyzing the evidence that clearly shows the evolutionary origins of biological structure. I do not. That is why, with 99% of all scientists, I have determined for myself through reading the evidence beyond reasonable doubt that evolution is responsible for the myriad biological life forms on earth. If you believe differently based on some lack of comprehension on your part, what is that to me?

And here come the ad hominems! So long.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The Ten commandments say we carry out ancestors guilt to the third and fourth generation. Others like you say it's all the way back to Adam. Why should we be guilty of anything more than our own immorality, since those are the only ones that we can repent for--as Jesus and John the Baptist both taught was the only path for salvation. No person or animal can die as a substitute for our repentance. Washed in the blood, it's an irrational, pagan and actually a disgusting theology, as is the Pauline ritual of the Lord's Supper. The Didache, the Apostles' "handbook", says nothing about such ritual cannibalism, symbolic or otherwise.

Matthew 20:28 reveals that Jesus understood why He was going to sacrifice His life. (It's what the animal sacrifices in Israelite culture pointed forward to, the Messiah's sacrifice.)

What cannibalism do you refer to? (There was no blood transfusion mentioned, lol)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

"Adam = Mesmerism
Eve = Magnetization

‘The Child’ = UNKNOWN (...no wait, nowadays we know...it’s AURA...you can take pictures of it ..)"

Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds??

Ditto.

 

[Faithofchristian]

That's right!

We may not agree on everything, but sometimes we do.

This, to me, is more evidence that the 6th Creative Day was longer than one literal day. Because Adam was created, more animals being created, and he was given the commission to name the animals, then got lonely and God created Eve for him.....plus, to know what death was because of seeing the animals die over time.....that 6th Day was long, so the others could have been, too.

If I may say, Adam and Eve were not created on the 6th day.

There were male and female created on the 6th day, but it wasn't Adam and Eve.

The first male and female were created on the 6th day which we call Friday, and on the next day, God rested from all his work the 7th day which we call Saturday. And then on the next day, the 8th day which we call Sunday, Adam was created.

Alot of Pastor's, Preachers, well tell you, it's just a over lay as to what taken place on the 6th day, That is not true.

Not when you have the 7th day standing between the two.
6th day Friday male and female created.
7th day Saturday God rested.
8th day Sunday Adam created.

 

[sayak83]

And here come the ad hominems! So long.

What ad hominem? It's obvious that you don't understand the evidence or the science well enough to make an informed decision. This is easy enough to demonstrate. We select a paper on evolutionary biology and let both of post an informed and careful critique of the paper here. That would demonstrate this fact easily.

There's nothing wrong about not understanding disciplines. I will be at sea trying to properly assess the merits of a paper on pure Mathematics or a modern treatise on a specific court case judgement. Nobody understands everything... except God of course.