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Why is Christ's sacrifice needed?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I didn't over step any rules, when you put the blame on someone else and not take responsibility for your own actions.

Yes, you did. I could still report the offending posts. A simple apology would do. And no, I did not put the blame on someone else. I merely pointed out the failures of your version of God and what he did wrong. That is putting the blame where it belongs.

There's nothing wrong in that.

You used name calling as well, now if I were to call you an "idiot" that would be a clear breaking of the rules here. The same applies to what you said of me and others.

Look here you go again, making false accusations again. So who's breaking the rules. To make false accusations against me.
That's your whole problem, for some unknown reason, you think Christians are to go by the world's way of thinking.

No, I can quote you breaking the rules that is not a false assumption. Your own post supports my claims. There was no bearing of false witness by me. There was by you.

That in it's self is making false accusations against me, as a Christian.

Nope, you simply do not see your sins. I do. As I said, if you are wrong and make a claim against someone else and do not know that you are wrong that is a breaking of the Ninth Commandment. Now you may not truly understand your errors, though that is hard to believe. You cannot show an error by those that oppose you. Largely because you have demonstrated that you cannot even argue logically.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ok, then according to the Bible, in the ninth commandment it does say --"You shalt not bear false witness against your neighbour"

Ok, Now according to the Bible, who would be the neighbour, according to the Bible.

So you say, that you understand the Bible, so let's see just how much you do understand.

So explain who would be the neighbour ?

Your neighbor would be anyone that you know. Please note the Bible does not define this so one must understand it from context.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I did not claim to be a Christian. But you are in no more of a position to say who is a 'True Christian' than I am. You do not get to decide, the Bible even tells you that.

What? You really need to try to think logically. Your question makes no sense at all. One does not have to believe the nonsense in the Bible to understand it. People have lied to you about that.



Wrong again. I have not contradicted myself. You can't name one contradiction.



And once again you demonstrate that logic is not in your toolbox. Can you ask proper questions?



Once again, one does not have to believe the nonsense in the Bible to understand it. You are not making sense. One does not have to believe that Spiderman is real to understand a Marvel comic book.



Now you are merely repeating your errors.



Repeating an inane and illogical argument does not improve it.



No, the Bible is unreliable not just because I or others say that it is, but because we can demonstrate that it is unreliable.


That's right and the bible does say who is not a true a Christian and who is a true Christian.

So if I say that a person is not a true Christian according to the Bible.

Waite a minute, first you say the bible is unreliable, But yet you quote things from the bible, that you call unreliable. So according to you how are you to take those things as being reliable, when you say they are unreliable.
So which way is it.
Is the bible unreliable or reliable.
It seems that you can not make up your mind.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That's right and the bible does say who is not a true a Christian and who is a true Christian.

So if I say that a person is not a true Christian according to the Bible.

Waite a minute, first you say the bible is unreliable, But yet you quote things from the bible, that you call unreliable. So according to you how are you to take those things as being reliable, when you say they are unreliable.
So which way is it.
Is the bible unreliable or reliable.
It seems that you can not make up your mind.

Sorry, but you cannot show that a person is not a "true Christian" just because they do not believe all of the myths of the Bible. The Bible does not even help you out with that claims.

And once again you demonstrate an inability to think logically. I can use the Bible because I understand its flaws and limitations. For example I can use it to point out when you are being a hypocrite by not following the Bible. You do not understand that Bible as well as I do and cannot understand how to use it as well as a result. For example when you break a law of the Bible I can use the Bible to show you what you did wrong by your standards. They are not my standards so they cannot be used against me. By relying on the Bible you allow others to use it against you even if they do not believe it.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but you cannot show that a person is not a "true Christian" just because they do not believe all of the myths of the Bible. The Bible does not even help you out with that claims.

And once again you demonstrate an inability to think logically. I can use the Bible because I understand its flaws and limitations. For example I can use it to point out when you are being a hypocrite by not following the Bible. You do not understand that Bible as well as I do and cannot understand how to use it as well as a result. For example when you break a law of the Bible I can use the Bible to show you what you did wrong by your standards. They are not my standards so they cannot be used against me. By relying on the Bible you allow others to use it against you even if they do not believe it.

You know even Christ Jesus shows in his own words who is a false Christian and who is a true Christian.

Now take notice what Jesus is saying here.

"For many shall come in my name, saying,
I am Christ, and shall deceive many"
Mark 13:6, Matthew 24:5

Who else besides Christians comes in the name of Christ ?

Christ is abbreviated for Christian.
Christ = Christain.

Therefore Jesus just showed who are the false Christians coming in his name.

So when you say the bible, which is the words of Jesus, your calling unreliable. Then Jesus points you out as being a false Christian that would come in his name.

Christ = Christian.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You know even Christ Jesus shows in his own words who is a false Christian and who is a true Christian.

Now take notice what Jesus is saying here.

"For many shall come in my name, saying,
I am Christ, and shall deceive many"
Mark 13:6, Matthew 24:5

Who else besides Christians comes in the name of Christ ?

Christ is abbreviated for Christian.
Christ = Christain.

Therefore Jesus just showed who are the false Christians coming in his name.

So when you say the bible, which is the words of Jesus, your calling unreliable. Then Jesus points you out as being a false Christian that would come in his name.

Christ = Christian.

The problem with that verse is that it could be applied to anyone that called themselves a Christian, including you. How are we to know that you are a "True Christian"? And the Bible neither claims to be the "words of Jesus" or claims that one must believe all of it. Where do you get your beliefs from? Clearly not from the Bible.

By the way, you never answered my question about the world being flat.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The problem with that verse is that it could be applied to anyone that called themselves a Christian, including you. How are we to know that you are a "True Christian"? And the Bible neither claims to be the "words of Jesus" or claims that one must believe all of it. Where do you get your beliefs from? Clearly not from the Bible.

By the way, you never answered my question about the world being flat.

Well it's evidence you didn't know that verse, until I showed it to you.

But yet you claim to understand the Bible.

If you claim to be a Christian but yet are found in criticizing the bible which are the words of Jesus, that doesn't say much about you or who you are. now does it.

It doesn't take a NASA rocket scientist to figure out, who's a false Christian and who is a true Christian.
When you claim to be a Christian but yet criticize the bible which is the words of Jesus. It shows who you really are.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well it's evidence you didn't know that verse, until I showed it to you.

But yet you claim to understand the Bible.

No, I have heard it many times. You merely misapplied it since it could equally apply to you. Why did you use such a verse? It appears that you did not understand it.

If you claim to be a Christian but yet are found in criticizing the bible which are the words of Jesus, that doesn't say much about you or who you are. now does it.

I never said that I am a Christian. I already corrected you on this. I was a Christian. And no, the Bible is not the "words of Jesus". Where do you think that it makes that claim?

It doesn't take a NASA rocket scientist to figure out, who's a false Christian and who is a true Christian.
When you claim to be a Christian but yet criticize the bible which is the words of Jesus. It shows who you really are.

It would appear that since I never claimed to be a Christian the only one that could be a "false Christian" between the two of us would be you. Again, you are not paying attention and you are not thinking logically. I pointed out that many Christians know that parts of the Bible are myth.

And why did you avoid my question about the flat Earth? It appears that even you know that at least parts of the Bible are mythical.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Now your not making any sense at all. If you don't believe my God even exists or you don't think the story happened at all.

Then why are you even want to debate on something you don't believe in.

If I don't believe in something, I am sure not going to get into a debate with someone over something I don't believe in.
Just for the sake of getting into a debate.
Which would be useless.
I'm trying to figure out a way to respect your point of view.

What you're saying comes off as ridiculous and irrational to me. It would be very easy for me to just walk away with a low opinion of you and your beliefs.

I'm not trying to get to "I believe the Garden of Eden story is true;" I'm trying to get to "I don't have to think less of someone because they think the Garden of Eden story is true."

And so far, talking to you has taken me further from that goal, if anything.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Ah... so it's our own doing, but because of something passed down from Adam.

So which is it?

- is God unable to stop "sin and death" from passing down from parent to child? Or...
- is God unwilling to stop it?

Almost makes it sound like god keeps us under sin and needing his intervention, so that we'll never get out of line again- doesn't it?
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Have you any idea what those two trees were to repersent ?
Spirit and knowledge.Without them, Adam was as the animals.

The soul of Adam came into being by means of a breath. The partner of his soul is the spirit. His mother is the thing that was given to him. His soul was taken from him and replaced by a spirit. When he was united (to the spirit), he spoke words incomprehensible to the powers.- Gospel of Philip

In the place where I will eat all things is the Tree of Knowledge. That one killed Adam, but here the Tree of Knowledge made men alive. The law was the tree. It has power to give the knowledge of good and evil. It neither removed him from evil, nor did it set him in the good, but it created death for those who ate of it. For when he said, "Eat this, do not eat that", it became the beginning of death.-Gospel of Philip

Paul agrees:

1 Corinth:
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Jesus agrees:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.- John 6

Romans:
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spiritthat dwelleth in you.

The word "spirit" is what we received to be able to understand knowledge. The word "Spirit" is the mother, the Holy Spirit that gives (reveals) knowledge (gnosis).

John 7:
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John:
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Holy Ghost is the mother (of Jesus) that was given after he arose.

John:
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Don't let the patriarchs throw you with the word "he". The mother came by the Father to glorify the (her) son, not herself. But a Christian can identify her.

Luke:
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost (mother) shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest (Father) shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I see it differently than the catholics "Bible" who worship Mary and make statues to her. My mother isn't Mary, but the Holy Spirit.

Luke:
20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.

21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Someone posted a thread about Jesus' sacrifice being, in their view, the "biggest problem of Christianity".
I thought I'd reply with a thread containing a link that helps to explain it.

No one can grasp the reason behind Jesus' sacrifice, without first recognizing the position that Adam, as our forefather, put all of us in: growing old, getting sick, and then dying. (This was not God's purpose for mankind.) We inherited sin from Adam and Eve. And 'sin leads to death.' --Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23

Keeping this in mind, here's a link providing information to think about:

Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

How about to explain why Jesus didn't fulfill the role of the Messiah as expected?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
How about to explain why Jesus didn't fulfill the role of the Messiah as expected?
In what ways didn't he? You mean, with regard to Jewish expectations? Jehovah God's purpose went far beyond what the Jews wanted! Even Jesus' own followers immediately after his death and Resurrection didn't have the correct expectations. --Acts 1:6-8
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
In what ways didn't he? You mean, with regard to Jewish expectations? Jehovah God's purpose went far beyond what the Jews wanted! Even Jesus' own followers immediately after his death and Resurrection didn't have the correct expectations. --Acts 1:6-8

I suspect a Rabbi would be better equipped to answer but here's a reference for you...

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia
 

Dantedeven

Member
Sin came before man?
As in Lucifer's fall? It might be true because the firstborn, Lucifer, did recieve free will from God.

However, not bowing to Adam with a reasonable counter argument was not the first sin committed imho, it was disrespectful, but not a sin.Because Lucifer had free will.The first sin was commited when Lucifer lied to Eve by saying she would not certainly die from eating the fruit that had knowledge about duality. The second sin was commited by mankind, and it was learning about duality. Duality would open te gates towards endless wars.
 

Mary Blackchurch

Free from Stockholm Syndrome
Someone posted a thread about Jesus' sacrifice being, in their view, the "biggest problem of Christianity".
I thought I'd reply with a thread containing a link that helps to explain it.

No one can grasp the reason behind Jesus' sacrifice, without first recognizing the position that Adam, as our forefather, put all of us in: growing old, getting sick, and then dying. (This was not God's purpose for mankind.) We inherited sin from Adam and Eve. And 'sin leads to death.' --Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23

Keeping this in mind, here's a link providing information to think about:

Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
If this was not gods purpose then he failed. If it was all because of Adam, then it was Adam who needed forgiveness. If you do something against the law should your son go to prison for it?

Also, if Christ's sacrifice is something you must accept in in order to be in his favour, then he's not only conditional, but also tricked you into enslavement...without even asking your permission.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
We
If this was not gods purpose then he failed. If it was all because of Adam, then it was Adam who needed forgiveness. If you do something against the law should your son go to prison for it?

Also, if Christ's sacrifice is something you must accept in in order to be in his favour, then he's not only conditional, but also tricked you into enslavement...without even asking your permission.
We are all free moral agents, able to make our own choices.

(Gotta go for now; I’ll try to remember to address your other points later. Just keep in mind, Jesus said to pray for ‘God’s Kingdom to come, and for his will to be done on Earth’.... so apparently, what God ultimately wants for this Earth isnt being accomplished right now. Genesis 3 gives us an idea why....)
 
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