Why is everybody so concerned with migrant family separation?

[Skipper]

First, they came for migrants fleeing for the lives
But I wasn't a migrant, so I said nothing.

Then they came for .....................................
And I said nothing for I wasn't a .............................

Now they are coming for me
And there is no one left to speak for me

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

First, your figure for deaths from car accidents is either meaningless (because you don't specify the time period over which the "1.3 million" deaths occur), or absurdly exaggerated (because the annual number of deaths is much, much less than that).

It’s actually the correct number for worldwide collision fatalities per year, not that it makes his overall point valid.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Car accidents are an unavoidable consequence of car ownership, and suicides the result of complex social forces and mental health issues. Neither can be easily remedied but both are problems that people are trying to solve.

Collisions overall? Maybe unavoidable. Fatalities from collisions? Certainly not... and there’s a worldwide campaign to stop them:

http://www.visionzeroinitiative.com/

 

[Augustus]

Collisions overall? Maybe unavoidable. Fatalities from collisions? Certainly not... and there’s a worldwide campaign to stop them:

http://www.visionzeroinitiative.com/

I'd say fatalities are unavoidable. That's not to say they couldn't continue to be significantly (or even drastically) reduced, but driving cannot be made completely risk free.

 

[stvdv]

12 jul 2018 stvdv 017 15

So why do we care so much about some kids being separated? Its just a fallacious appeal to emotion-- "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! =-(". I really don't get it

How you phrase it you practically say "I do not feel any empathy for them"

 

[stvdv]

12 jul 2018 stvdv 017 16

which I obviously don't because death is much worse than separation

Why is that? Is it true?

When I, as a child, am dead, then I don't feel anything. There is not even an "I" to compare.

When I, as a child, am separated, then I do feel something, and some feel a lot [all depends on how much emotions are suppressed]

 

[BSM1]

The only fly in the ointment, as I see it, is that family separation at the border is 100% avoidable; don't try to illegally enter this (or any) country.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The only fly in the ointment, as I see it, is that family separation at the border is 100% avoidable; don't try to illegally enter this (or any) country.

Many of the immigrants in custody did enter the country legally.

And for the ones that didn't: the US government is prohibited by law from prosecuting a refugee claimant merely for entering the country by means that would normally be illegal.

 

[Audie]

From what we've seen, that would most likely increase his popularity with his base.

Speaking as his base, I have to disagree.
Shooting someone in Times Square, sure.

 

[Audie]

The only fly in the ointment, as I see it, is that family separation at the border is 100% avoidable; don't try to illegally enter this (or any) country.

They should wait in line, and when a liberal
wants to leave Trumps America, trade places.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For the point he is making I think the math works out. It may not be exhaustive in taking into account every possible variable, but it defines how he feels his concern for other is established. As I said, concern is very subjective, not everyone will feel the way he does as peoples' concerns are sometimes very emotional, his is based on logic.

No, it's not based in logic.

Along with all the issues with subjectivity @Sunstone pointed out, @serp777 ignores relative cost and benefit.

Say I want to save as many lives as possible; wouldn't I focus on the issues where I could maximize the number of lives saved per unit of my effort/time/resources/etc.? It would be a weird coincidence if the issues I pick that way happen to be the same issues that kill the most people worldwide.

@serp777 's approach is fundamentally irrational. If he wanted to be rational, he would have based his approach around questions like these:

- does the problem have a known solution?
- what obstacles are there that might stop my effort from creating benefit?
- does addressing this problem need special expertise? Do I have that expertise?
- is the type of effort/resources required to address this problem the sort of effort/resources I'm suited to provide?
- are other people already working on this problem? How much will my added contribution change the outcome?

It's fine as a starting point to recognize that auto collisions kill a lot of people worldwide, but then where do you go with that? The biggest chunk - 261,000 deaths per year - is in China. What measures do you suggest that someone like me, sitting in Canada, should do to address this? I'm a transportation engineer and even I'm not sure. I support some global road safety initiatives, but that's about it.

If I wanted to save as many lives as I could, I don't think it would be a good use of my time to learn Mandarin, try to move to China, and get into a position with enough influence that I can effect nationwide change to road safety policy; do you? And all this even moreso for someone who doesn't actually have training in road safety.

OTOH, the ICE crisis is a potential quick win: the solution is clear - it just involves getting ICE to stop doing what they're doing - and the effort needed to effect the change is potentially low - just a bit of complaining to lawmakers - so why wouldn't someone take action on it?

 

[Stanyon]

Deaths from car accidents are 1.3 million and deaths from suicide are 43,000 per year. So why do we care so much about some kids being separated? Its just a fallacious appeal to emotion-- "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! =-(". I really don't get it. The people who are so concerned aren't spending a second worrying about the millions who die every year from preventable causes. And yet they think this family separation thing is the worst atrocity since the holocaust.

Also, before anyone makes the strawman that i'm somehow saying we can only care about the largest cause of deaths, that's not what i'm saying. I'm saying that we should care proportionally based on those things that have the most impact. Lets prioritize things that have the most negative effect. So basically, I care about migrant family separations compared to car accidents about 3000 / 1.3 million %, assuming I cared about deaths vs family separations the same, which I obviously don't because death is much worse than separation. At best that's .2%. Where's the logic in me caring about family separations of migrants when so many die in car accidents, for example?

And let me also just mention that this has been happening for several decades, and nobody has cared or mentioned it at all. This is simply politicized nonsense.

They care about the separation of illegal immigrants from their children because the general media tells them this is the next thing to be outraged about and politics no doubt are a factor in putting this in the forefront. I would imagine some feel actual empathy for them as any normal person would but to make this a prime concern considering everything else that goes on on a daily basis seems the quick and easy moral ant hill to stand on and shout from. Pretended moral outrage and manufactured politicized concern playing on emotions is all they have left.

 

[metis]

And let me also just mention that this has been happening for several decades, and nobody has cared or mentioned it at all. This is simply politicized nonsense.

Maybe study the Holocaust and see that this same exact tactic was used by the NAZI's, although they obviously took it much further.

According to an ICE spokesperson a couple of weeks ago, they estimate that about half of those trying to get in are likely legitimate refugees trying to save their families, including their children. Wouldn't you do the same if push came to shove? Would you want to be separated from your children?

The Trump administration created this mess, and now it's up to them to fix it. IMO, to defend the administration's actions is utterly deplorable, thus showing so little empathy even towards infants.

 

[Shad]

Deaths from car accidents are 1.3 million and deaths from suicide are 43,000 per year. So why do we care so much about some kids being separated? Its just a fallacious appeal to emotion-- "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! =-(". I really don't get it. The people who are so concerned aren't spending a second worrying about the millions who die every year from preventable causes. And yet they think this family separation thing is the worst atrocity since the holocaust.

Also, before anyone makes the strawman that i'm somehow saying we can only care about the largest cause of deaths, that's not what i'm saying. I'm saying that we should care proportionally based on those things that have the most impact. Lets prioritize things that have the most negative effect. So basically, I care about migrant family separations compared to car accidents about 3000 / 1.3 million %, assuming I cared about deaths vs family separations the same, which I obviously don't because death is much worse than separation. At best that's .2%. Where's the logic in me caring about family separations of migrants when so many die in car accidents, for example?

And let me also just mention that this has been happening for several decades, and nobody has cared or mentioned it at all. This is simply politicized nonsense.

Separation of children is via government policy whereas car accidents are not. The policy was not an accident while Trump was on his phone or due to rush hour, etc, etc as with many car accidents. It is politicized as it a political decision. Government vs public. Hence why the focus is different as one is completely under control of the government while the other is not unless automobiles are banned.

 

[Jumi]

Is it bad to want to fix unreasonable injustices if there are other bad things that exist?

 

[Willamena]

Deaths from car accidents are 1.3 million and deaths from suicide are 43,000 per year. So why do we care so much about some kids being separated? Its just a fallacious appeal to emotion-- "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! =-(". I really don't get it. The people who are so concerned aren't spending a second worrying about the millions who die every year from preventable causes. And yet they think this family separation thing is the worst atrocity since the holocaust.

Also, before anyone makes the strawman that i'm somehow saying we can only care about the largest cause of deaths, that's not what i'm saying. I'm saying that we should care proportionally based on those things that have the most impact. Lets prioritize things that have the most negative effect. So basically, I care about migrant family separations compared to car accidents about 3000 / 1.3 million %, assuming I cared about deaths vs family separations the same, which I obviously don't because death is much worse than separation. At best that's .2%. Where's the logic in me caring about family separations of migrants when so many die in car accidents, for example?

And let me also just mention that this has been happening for several decades, and nobody has cared or mentioned it at all. This is simply politicized nonsense.

We do care about the things that have the most impact... to us, individually. Which is why there is caring about the children.

 

[Father Heathen]

Because possessing a sense of empathy, especially for innocent children, is an integral part of our humanity? What kind of question is this even?

 

[YmirGF]

I'd rather expect that the involuntary separation of parents and their children would be a fairly monumental event for those involved. My guess is that is why there is so much chatter about it this news cycle. Sometimes we highlight problems because there are fairly simple and straightforward solutions.

 

[coralof]

Detaining and separating children from families, or detaining people at all in mass prisons is never the answer. ICE needs to be eliminated altogether. These people are escaping dangerous conditions in their own countries, and there have already been plenty of stories of people being killed who have been detained by ICE and deported.

I say this because 1) most people in ICE are probably racist nationalists who don't want 'them' in the country, no matter their story or circumstance, and 2) because they have extremely poor judgement, and should not have been given the job in the first place.

ICE SHOUD BE SHUT DOWN. Nobody needs a paramilitary border control with assault weapons, especially the nation that already has the largest military budget in the world. The countries in the Schengen area and elsewhere do fine without guarded borders.

 

[columbus]

Deaths from car accidents are 1.3 million and deaths from suicide are 43,000 per year. So why do we care so much about some kids being separated?

Because a governing regime that most people voted against instituted a policy that results in this immoral outcome.
As opposed to car accidents and suicide that most Government institutions attempt, however unsuccessfully, to prevent.
It's completely different.
Tom