Why is God so stuck on belief?

[Blackdog22]

Once again, God doesn't want us to believe in Him because it benefits Him. He wants us to believe in Him because it supposedly benefits us. God doesn't need us. We need Him. This is the whole of Abrahamic dogma when it comes to worshiping God.

I have to disagree here. The Bible definitely says that God is a jelious God. It also says to give him all the glory. I can go through and find the verses, even though I would imagine you are aware of them.

I would also put forth the question that if God didn't need us then why would he create us? Where exactly is his motivation?

It is also said that God wants a relationship with us. A relationship is usually something that benefits both people. My problem with this relationship is that it has a basis in believing. I still don't understand why God needs us to believe in him for anything. He either exists or he doesn't and not believing in something doesn't appear to be a very valid insult. Especially under the penalty of death as the Bible puts it. I can't wrap my head around the idea that this being needs to be believed in, yet we are made in his image. I know of no such being on the planet that would be insulted if someone that had never seen him, didn't believe in him, why would this supernatural being?

 

[Blackdog22]

Long story short He's a jelous god because He doesn't want us to follow false gods. As to whether or not He's insulted if we don't believe in Him? He's not. I don't know where you actually got that idea.

If the what the Bible says is true then we are to "perish" for not believing in him. I posted multiple scriptures on the first page. If he found no insult in not believing then why would he decide on a punishment for us for not believing? Unless of course God just enjoys mass punishment without cause or reason.

 

[Dan4reason]

Ah. Well in that case it depends on which interpretation of "perish" and "banishment" you want to go with, because there are many. For example the word "hell" has a very different connotation when you realize that the word that they use pretty much just means "grave" or "pit." Then there is also the argument that some take, Baha'is included, that God does not "banish" us to damnation. Instead we cause ourselves to suffer in the next world by creating distance between us and the glory of God. When you look at this interpretation, it's easy to come to the conclusion that once again God wants us to worship Him not because He is a vain god, but because it's what is best for our spiritual growth.

I have some questions. What is in hell exactly? Are there other people? Worlds? Animals? Cars? What do we do in heaven? What is in heaven?

I think that these question are important to the issue of what to do with rational people who won't believe in you because you didn't prove you existed.

 

[Dan4reason]

I want to apologize in advanced. This is going to be half hearted mostly because I've talked about this so many times I've lost my zeal and interest when it comes to this topic. With that said, here goes . . .

There is no heaven or hell. The afterlife is one giant place where we all go when we die. Just like our mother's womb helped us to develop the physical attributes we needed to interact with the physical world, the physical world helps us to develop the spiritual attributes we will need for the physical world. If your mom drank when she was pregnant with you, your physical growth was harmed and stunted. If you sin as an adult, your spiritual growth is harmed and stunted.* Heaven and hell are not concrete physical places but merely attempts at explaining what is unknown.

God cares whether or not you believe in Him because He wants what's best for you, but He's not going to force you to listen. That's your own personal choice. It doesn't matter whether you believe in Him or not though because that doesn't change the fact that sooner or later we all die and sooner or later we all end up in the same place.

Blah blah blah blah blah.

*Don't ask me about aborted babies or people who died as young children and how that affects their spiritual growth. You and I both know the answer to that if we take this analogy to its logical conclusion. It's not a perfect explanation, but it is what it is.

/as for what we do in heaven, I don't know
//I better not be working though, or there'll be hell to pay

Far out. That is way cooler than the Christian afterlife. What I have to wonder is exactly how bad deeds hurt us in the spirit realm. What is in the spirit realm? What do we even do in the spirit realm? I hope I am not asking too many question.

One thing that would be nice would be if someone would come back from the spirit ream and verify what you said. I don't know if that ever happened.

 

[petewentz]

God cares whether or not you believe in Him because He wants what's best for you, but He's not going to force you to listen.

Blah blah blah blah blah.

That one bit struck me as odd. I agree with the rest, in a strictly hypothetical sense, but isn't it pretty obvious God does force us to listen, or we should face "hell" and perish. There are numerous references to killing non-believers and their fate after death. So while it's still "a choice", it's a choice the same way putting a gun to my head and asking me to stand on my leg is still a choice.

 

[petewentz]

Woah woah woah. Now we're talking about a bit much here. If you look back up you'll see my argument for the whole "facing hell and perishing" bit. I still stand by that.

As for the whole God killing non-believers, you're making a super broad statement. I'm kind of thinking that we ought to start a whole new thread based on this argument just for fear that it'll radically derail this thread.

I understand. I didn't mean to cherry pick, because I agreed with the entirety of your post in a hypothetical sense(which is what the thread is requiring of me) except that one part. I just feel like God does force his need to be "believed" upon us...

That said, if God did exist, as an omnipotent being and not a deistic force, then my original point still stands: He wants our belief because faith means more than evidence. If God showed everyone he existed, then it would be common sense to believe, and thus wouldn't require the faith that it currently does, and our love for him would be moot.

I suppose you disagree with that, and I can agree with your point as well. I guess an omnipotent being wouldn't require us at all...but if you agree he is a father, I would also suppose most fathers wouldn't need their infant sons, yet they still want the love of their offspring. Now I agree, I'm getting ahead of myself here, because again I am imposing human qualities on a supernatural being, and I fear that's the mistake most theists make.

 

[Blackdog22]

I understand. I didn't mean to cherry pick, because I agreed with the entirety of your post in a hypothetical sense(which is what the thread is requiring of me) except that one part. I just feel like God does force his need to be "believed" upon us...

That said, if God did exist, as an omnipotent being and not a deistic force, then my original point still stands: He wants our belief because faith means more than evidence. If God showed everyone he existed, then it would be common sense to believe, and thus wouldn't require the faith that it currently does, and our love for him would be moot.

I suppose you disagree with that, and I can agree with your point as well. I guess an omnipotent being wouldn't require us at all...but if you agree he is a father, I would also suppose most fathers wouldn't need their infant sons, yet they still want the love of their offspring. Now I agree, I'm getting ahead of myself here, because again I am imposing human qualities on a supernatural being, and I fear that's the mistake most theists make.

I don't quite understand your reasoning. Why is faith/belief in an unseen being so important? Believing and follow,loving, obeying, etc are completely different things. If some guy in Alaska sent me a letter tomorrow that said he was the anti christ and said that I had to believe him I wouldn't consider that a choice of love or not, but a choice of logic. I don't see belief as equal to love. I also see no harm in not believing something exists. If I walked up to a kid at college and told him I didn't believe in him he wouldn't be offended and likely wouldn't care. Why then is God more petty than human beings?

 

[petewentz]

I don't quite understand your reasoning. Why is faith/belief in an unseen being so important? Believing and follow,loving, obeying, etc are completely different things. If some guy in Alaska sent me a letter tomorrow that said he was the anti christ and said that I had to believe him I wouldn't consider that a choice of love or not, but a choice of logic. I don't see belief as equal to love. I also see no harm in not believing something exists. If I walked up to a kid at college and told him I didn't believe in him he wouldn't be offended and likely wouldn't care. Why then is God more petty than human beings?

My reasoning is the basis of the thread: Suppose God does exist, WHY does he require our belief? I answered the question, though I do not believe in his existence.

My reasoning is that you have reasonable evidence to believe in the college kid, you do not require faith. You also have reasonable evidence to assume the man in Alaska is delusional and not the anti-Christ...with God it is much different, he is so much more omnipotent(hypothetically speaking) than anything you, or I, could imagine. Therefore, belief in such a non-existent ideal would mean much more to him than it would if he declared he does exist. It would be common sense to "obey your master"...he wouldn't want that. It wouldn't matter.

I hate using personification on such an abstract idea, but we tend to do that and I believe that's the fundamental problem with organized religion. Father, Son, Holy Ghost, all that jazz...

 

[BruceDLimber]

I have to wonder. Why does this God being seem to request belief in him? Does he not know he exists? Does he need to be reaffirmed that he exists?

Not in the least: God knows all this and needs NOTHING WHATEVER!

Belief is for OUR benefit, not God's.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[waitasec]

The relationship's the thing. As Luna said, it wasn't meant to be a head thing -- it's a heart thing.

i think it's an alter ego thing...

god is insecure...thusly, so is man.

man wants to feel justified and accepted and creates god to justify his actions good or bad.

a "relationship" with a deity only inflates the undue importance all people have by feeding the ego with..."i am special because god is concrned about me when no one else is..."
it's just a defense mechanism...to ensure survival.

 

[PolyHedral]

He is. We're just awful listeners.

Infinitely good. We'll listen if He wants us to.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If god exists, and it's anything at all like the unstable, inconsistent, and arbitrary god described in the bible, then we're all pretty much screwed.

 

[waitasec]

If god exists, and it's anything at all like the unstable, inconsistent, and arbitrary god described in the bible, then we're all pretty much screwed.

yup....

 

[BruceDLimber]

If god exists, and it's anything at all like the unstable, inconsistent, and arbitrary god described in the bible, then we're all pretty much screwed.

Fortunately, there are far more positive descriptions of God in other religions.

I refer you to the Baha'i scriptures for a prime example!

You can see them here:

· www.bahai-library.org (click "Writings" for our scriptures)
· www.reference.bahai.org (this site is multilingual)

Peace,

Bruce

 

[waitasec]

Fortunately, there are far more positive descriptions of God in other religions.

I refer you to the Baha'i scriptures for a prime example!

You can see them here:

· www.bahai-library.org (click "Writings" for our scriptures)
· www.reference.bahai.org (this site is multilingual)

Peace,

Bruce

are you saying the way god is portrayed in the bible is wrong?

 

[BruceDLimber]

are you saying the way god is portrayed in the bible is wrong?

Only that modern scripture has newer metaphors and clearer descriptions of God and other aspects of spiriutality and religion than the millenia-old ones in various longstanding scriptures.

I invite you to read these new ones yourself (at the sites I mentioned) and see!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[waitasec]

Only that modern scripture has newer metaphors and clearer descriptions of God and other aspects of spiriutality and religion than the millenia-old ones in various longstanding scriptures.

I invite you to read these new ones yourself (at the sites I mentioned) and see!

Peace,

Bruce

but does newer and clearer mean more correct?
btw, the newer and clearer metaphors are still as subjective as the older and ambiguous ones...

 

[youfaith]

Belief is a variable among people.

 

[BruceDLimber]

ut does newer and clearer mean more correct?

In this case, it means more easily understandable and FAR less prone to misinterpretation! And therefore containing MUCH less vagueness and ambiguity.

As I said, do read them yourself and see!

Best!

Bruce

 

[horizon_mj1]

What if the "belief" issue if nothing more than a "trust" issue? If you can harbor a belief for someone or something you are not 100% sure exists, thus showing faith, maybe more trust is granted from the illusive one (if it exists).